tension after the u.s. orders the closure of the chinese consulate in houston washington says the move is to protect american intellectual property rights but is sad but how much is it also to do with november's u.s. presidential election i'm phil gale in berlin and this is the day. there's been this challenge of the chinese communist party stealing intellectual property we actually talked about this is not just american intellectual problem. for us to stop the smear and slander on cyber security issues. hardworking people all across europe in america stolen by the chinese communist party. is a resolute defender of cyber security we have consistently opposed competent all kinds of cyber attacks on cyber crimes are setting up clear expertise as for how the chinese communist party is going to behave. also on the day the

trumpet ministration defense the deployment of federal officers against protesters despite objections from local leaders these police officers are not stormtroopers they are not the gestapo as some have described them that description is offensive it's hyperbolic and it's dishonest. in the latest escalation of tensions between the world's 2 largest economies the united states has ordered china to close its culture letting houston texas the u.s. state department said this was necessary to protect american intellectual property beijing described the move as a political provocation and the serious violation of international law hours after the order was issued firefighters were called to the consulate building. bins on fire inside the courtyard at the chinese consulate in houston witnesses said they could smell paper being burned the 1st whiff of a bigger story because firefighters arrived chinese state media started reporting

the u.s. had ordered the consulate to be closed. it's a political provocation unilaterally launched by the u.s. side which seriously violates international law basic norms governing international relations and the bilateral consular agreements between china and the u.s. china strongly condemn such an outrageous move. beat you to it or you. in a statement the u.s. state department said it would not tolerate violations of our sovereignty and intimidation of our people the u.s. directive comes a day after 2 chinese nationals were charged with hacking said to be working as spies they're accused among other things of trying to steal coronavirus vaccine research. campaign targeted intellectual property and confidential business

information held by the private sector including covert 19 related treatment testing and vaccines. back in houston this was his closest firefighters could get to the consulate they weren't allowed in chinese officials have 72 hours to get out with china threatening to close u.s. consulates in response. to fire may have been protests but the u.s. china relationship is smoldering as much as ever. let's get more on this from james i'm joe lewis he's a senior vice president at the u.s. think tank the center for strategic and international studies he's also a director of the technology policy program joins us from washington welcome to t.w. it was kind of increasing tensions between the u.s. and china that includes trade wars namecalling and demands for bans on tech companies where disclosing a consulate rate. it's not unusual measures

are in response to massive espionage it's been done in the past but it really is the top of the charts so major move forward by the u.s. do you and do you believe there has been massive espionage. oh without a doubt it started decades ago in fact it started as soon as china connected to the internet so there's strong strong evidence. china engages in espionage in a violation of u.s. national sovereignty and it's for commercial and technological purposes the evidence is overwhelming not whether this was the right move is subject to debate but again we've seen that reagan did it in the cold war obama did it with the russians and the election interference so. at the top of the scale a major major move but not unprecedented so if this is been going on for decades why do this now. i think part of it is korea says people

suspect something to do with the election which is that it's always good to look tough. against china now because no one likes china and the united states anymore it's sad but it's true it's partially because of the. efforts so we the british others found the chinese trying to break in to our research labs to. deal vaccine information i think that helped a lot this is been a longstanding campaign for the trumpet ministration but obviously it started in 2015 when obama attempted to negotiate an agreement with the chinese for them to stop commercial espionage he got an agreement but as soon as he left office the chinese stopped observing it and wife who stood. i don't know i think it probably was not

a center of espionage it would be unusual to say that it may have been considered expendable you know it's not chicago it's not new york it's not washington so it sends the message i think that was the primary intent here to send a message to the chinese that the u.s. will not tolerate this behavior and do we presume that this is a uniquely chinese problem all we the the west the british the americans whoever we at base as well that we indulging in. intellectual property theft know so i've talked with the hand of germany's b. and b. and d. i talked with french british nordic intelligence officials none of them engage in this kind of commercial a squeamishness kind of technological theft it's uniquely chinese built their economy on it and that's part of why it's such

a big problem is that china needs to steal western technology in order to grow and so most western countries whether it's japan or australia or germany or france and the u.k. they all share this problem with us and i just wonder about the presumption that there would be very good spies if you asked them are you stating stuff and they just said yes. because that would be true but. what can i say perhaps i have a good relationship with them all and some of it too is that you know what chinese technology would do steal we've gone through this exercise of asking ourselves if we stole technology who would be good to us a lot requires us and we still follow u.s. law in this area it requires us to give it to all the companies that are involved in major problems for us in that we simply aren't structured nor is germany nor is any western country to engage in rampant economic espionage sure people might do

a little on trade or they might do a little on finance and i.m.f. but nobody steals this kind of industrial secret the way the chinese do and in part it's not a 2 way street because there isn't that much chinese technology we're stealing that sounds arrogant and i apologize but that's the truth thank you for joining us said james under news from the center for strategic and international studies. thank you . well let's stay in the united states in the city of portland which has seen further clashes between protesters and federal offices sent by president trump to and on t.v. he says in protest that but the feds methods on behavior including conceding their identities of spot criticism and complaints. clashes between demonstrators and federal law enforcement officers in major american cities are ongoing one side claims to fight against what it describes as police brutality

the other to restore law and order situation has become increasingly politicized people say protests and these people are advocates these are people that hate our country. this is how the us president explains sending in federal agents. we have federal officers on our streets further escalating tensions and causing harm to portlanders right now. the deployment of these federal officers who answer directly to the white house and operate in total anonymity valid name takes or other visual identification is highly controversial a larger policed. to conceal their identity it's just a step toward a secret america has always been proud of never having had a federal. insurer or is forced historically it is usually the republicans who

want to limit the influence of the federal government but when it comes to protestors everything seems to be turned around these days the words and actions from president trump and the department of homeland security and shown it this is an attack on our democracy. the escalation of tensions in chicago who has seen trump unknowns he's sending federal agents they are all so this is worse than afghanistan by far this is worse than anything anyone's ever seen. all run by the same liberal democrats and you know what a button got in that would be true for the country the whole country would go to hell with protests not expected to end anytime soon and president trump fearing to capitalize on the division in the united states puts even further.

washington post reporter nick near office been covering the best story and joins me on the line from the u.s. that capital welcome next from the outside a president trump appears to have a point you've got several u.s. cities experiencing what appears to be violent disorder the local authorities seem unable to control. that's true we have seen an increase in gun violence in chicago new york several other cities as well as the. standoff in portland at times violent between protesters and federal agents protecting a federal courthouse but at the same time i think the president who is failing in the polls and facing a pandemic in an economic crisis is looking for a new campaign theme and he is seizing on this as something he thinks he can run on this thing that's what this is he's looking for i'm an enemy to beat. i think that

he is looking to change the headlines and and find some territory on which he thinks he can he can separate himself from biden and gain. an issue where he thinks he'll end up looking better. and that's why you heard him in the white house on monday basically saying that the country will quote go to hell that biden is elected that he's the strong man who will restore law and order and that if the democrats win we'll see you know portland and every american city the president has also announced what he called a federal forces into chicago and other cities so this is nowhere near over. that's right and one of the one of the interesting things to observe here has been that. you know homeland security officials who are responding in portland have been going going out of their way to decide that portland is

a kind of unique situation in which they are protecting a federal courthouse that is the target of protesters whereas this expanded operation in chicago and other cities is very much about trying to tamp down the rise in gun violence and so even though they are trying to keep these things separate the president sees it as part of the same broader chaos and you know the push to defund the police that came out of the racial justice mobilization after joy george ford's killing so. federal offices where they're being deployed from. well in portland you have a federal courthouse that is typically protected by a very you know babies be just security guards and they were quickly you know kind of outnumbered by protesters and so moment security officials have sent in. agents from tactical teams to the border patrol from the you know gratian enforcement arm

ice as well as u.s. marshals from the department of justice who typically protect the justice system so you have a different federal agents there who are now engaging on a nightly basis with with these protesters. who are who are surrounding the courthouse and you know lobbying objects at it and fireworks and that kind of thing we've been looking at file pictures as you've been speaking and they they do look quite scary and tell us about the wall of moms. well you know one of the one of the things this is sort of the you know one thing that you we see almost every protest when when. ortiz kind of escalate with a show of force there's often a counter response and. with the increased federal deployment we saw more you know larger numbers of peaceful protesters coming out. kind of to to

protect others including this group of moms you know where yellow and lock arms and. you know are there kind of on the front lines particularly earlier in the evening before the more rowdy stuff starts up and briefly these protests started out as the racism demonstrations are they still about that. well that's a great question i think what we've seen is that you know that federal courthouse in portland which is which is you know always been kind of. a symbolic you know target for protesters and early on in the in the protest after george floyd's killing you know was kind of an amorphous symbol of injustice has now become kind of a proxy for the president himself and trump's you know view of american democracy and you know it's really spun up into something much bigger and it really

given the protests a very a very you know clear firm symbol of his administration right there in their city ok good talking to you thank you for joining us now from the washington post i think. a lot of european governments are facing the same problem what to do with their citizens including women and children who left to join the so-called islamic state in syria and iraq many are now living in kurdish controlled refugee camps their status in limbo european countries are reluctant to bring them home prefer them to face trial in the region but human rights groups say government should treat their citizens and deal with them domestically especially the most vulnerable the biggest group of french citizens including $400.00 women and children d.w. correspondent lisa has been to meet on twice who's fighting to bring he's the daughter and grandson back to france he asked us not to use his real name. on

tun is standing his ground the former trade unionist has defended workers' rights his whole life but when 5 years ago his 26 year old daughter suddenly left to join isis in iraq he had dropped bottom. it was my house came tumbling down on top of me. she had always been a good student and we didn't see this thing coming at all our family is ignore stake but she converted to islam without telling us what i told to do you know what you're getting yourself into and who these people are that you're joining he. last year his daughter was captured by the kurds and brought to the whole camp he kept in touch with her until she and her baby born in syria then his 5 weeks ago on one is today showing his face on camera for the 1st time he says he has nothing left to lose. i don't know exactly what she did but i'm not the judge she should

be held accountable for her actions and she has the right to a fair trial like everyone else that's the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship we're creating a 2nd guantanamo there and what about my grandson he's 18 months old he's responsible for nothing more. the french government has only repatriated about 30 children from the council and refuses to bring that women and men. and we are proceeding according to international law people should be judged in the country where they are alleged to have committed crimes we take back the young children if and when the mother agrees that we should take charge of them. but this lawyer representing the families of 14 women in the camps says that approach actually goes against international law. kurdistan doesn't exist so

there are no judges anti as people are being arbitrarily detained plus their crimes started in front of it i think they are accused of joining a terrorist organization could move on should be judged here and these children are in mortal danger 300 of them died as all whole than 29000 jews. living conditions yes france has an obligation to protect them but since leaving them there to run. france is not the only country reluctant to retouch aged citizens who left to join so-called islamic states about 1000 western europeans as still being held in syria and iraq only a few of them have been brought back so far. together with other families on 2000 has gone to court to force the government to bring back his daughter and grandson he believes repatriation is actually in the government's own interest. in the recent attack on one camp the kurds just open the gates and some women escape to

join. so leaving these people in the cabs is a lot more dangerous than bringing them back we always wonder if they managed to get away there is a real risk they might commit more attacks here in france or you know he's determined not to lose hope so that one day he can finally meet his grandson. so how dangerous is it to repatriate these former jihad this and their supporters to stand trial on the face of it is from the terrorism an organized crime unit a university college london department of security in crime science is research just focused on the psychology of radicalization welcome to day w o u research is involved taking brain scans of radicalized jihadists what if you learned about the minds of people who leave to join the so-called islamic state. i learned a couple of things i mean one thing we've learned is that people who are early stage of radicalization haven't fully adopted the ideology yet for them

experiencing social exclusion which in common a variety of different forms online and offline pushes them further towards the violence but when it comes to repatriation of foreign fighters the more relevant finding us to do with the more highly backlights people that we can these are people who are supporters of an al qaeda associate what we found with them is when they were highly willing to fight and die for their beliefs part of their brain associated with deliberative reasoning and some of that reflection was deeply active and that's a problem because those functions of reflection and deliberative reasoning are necessary for the radicalization for persuasion for negotiation for any attempt to really alter someone's behavior so the question becomes how do you reach activate those areas of the brain and you get someone to reflect and maybe reduce their willingness to engage in violence well their research showed that actually you don't need to change someone's ideology you don't actually need to radicalize them

although that is ideal and you would hope that eventually happens in the short run as long as you can get the community around to convince them that they don't support the right even this is the norm rather than friends and family members that can be sufficient to reactivate those areas of the brain and to reduce their willingness to engage so much to pick out of their let's let's start with this idea of deliberately area associated with deliberative reasoning being switched off does that it does that effectively mean that once you've been radicalized you're not thinking about what you're doing you're just doing it. well once you're really willing to act you're just kind of doing it once you high willingness to fight and die and the truth is people who are radicalize not all of their values have the same willingness to fight and die some values are of lower priority to those values or areas of the brain already active and can only begin to negotiate on those issues which one really need to know these people like he said like case level to understand what values are particularly important for them in order to know what

technique you need to employ in order to alter their behavior so here's the thing about that if that sounds like it requires quite intensive work so if you are talking about governments repopulating people having them stand trial and presumably find them guilty of sending them to jail this does not sound like a pathway where governments will be willing to throw lots and lots of money at helping these individuals in that way yeah i mean it has to be a case by case situation if you really want to see a mantra change and we also have to face the fact that some people we just won't be able to deal radicalize and we've seen that in a lot of cases at the very least we may try to decide age them that's a more realistic goal which means basically their ideology has changed but they're no longer willing to engage in violence or the movement that they still believe in is usually because they've now found an alternative pathway to purpose or they have

other priorities in their life they have other communities they decide to have a family unit or things and they just disengaged and it truly is all over europe right now there are people who are disengaged who still believe in this ideology of white nationalism and are doing nothing about it so it sounds like even if they are repopulated tried sent to prison and then released we have no idea what's going on inside their heads and whether or not there still a danger to the wider community. there's things that we can do that would use that risk that the research has shown in terms of rehabilitation programs in terms of bringing the community together to provide an alternative community helping people find alternative pathways to purpose and even finding credible messengers who can help them rethink about some of their ideology as well as mental health services to deal with p.t.s.d. or any other medical issues so there are things we can do to reduce that risk but under no circumstance of my saying that this is

a guaranteed solution to make sure that we will never have the prison for any of these be fascinating to talk to thank you for joining us in the face made from university college london my pleasure. well the day's out almost done but the conversation continues online you can join us on twitter i've got the w.'s where you can follow me to fill goldens get to use the hash tag the day i was watching and have a good. old .

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politi to flash from cars like a good time this is where it was. welcome to the 77 percent. this weekend v.w. . hello and welcome to focus on europe thanks for joining us today look we're in a crisis has overshadowed many important issues that were meant to be top of the agenda for europe in 2020 such as environmental protection the fight against corporate 19 has actually intensified along existing problem and that is plastic waste the ocean floor.