so you. tell. them. of course the subconscious always a world without the talk i can't even begin to imagine. it. struck september 16th w. you know more you talk about a world who is being protected i'm asking you very simply who's protecting him. i keep on saying. i will keep on pushing for all the truth to come out after the murder of the prominent maltese journalist daphne carolina. motel itself has become a byword for violence and corruption my guest this week here in munich is the country's foreign minister everest bartold out he says he wants to improve malta's tarnished image but how many more secrets have to come out before that will be

possible. ever aspire to welcome to conflict so thank you you've made it clear that in the wake of the murder of corona and all the corruption scandals that have followed that malta needs to rebuild its reputation that isn't going to happen until their body starts telling the truth is that i agree at the fact when i was appointed for the 1st minister because they told me to go ahead and see what you can do i made it very clear i'm not a beautician or a plastic surgeon over there are a guillotine which have to be dealt with they have to be dealt with in malta in terms of reality and not of the presentation of reality where we're getting to possibly what some of those dirty things are but i'm curious why former ministers like you supported a government that you knew was wrong. into the core where when things started

coming out of the time of the bottom up a person to succeed i made it very clear that thought i'd accept a bit. but you say go on i stayed on. i had the choice. i admire savonarola but they had my ire got a little more i had to i had the survival strategy where i could fight another but did we use that experience to get there we've got to follow the horse do above the party had the time and now he's in the democratic party to negotiate for things to make the government more accountable but your collective silence over the years helped cement in power a government that became a byword for corruption with conflicts of interest multiplying in the prime minister's office and the rule of law seriously undermined and you went along with by staying in the government. they have said recently that perhaps. it would

have been wiser to resign in 2016 as a pressure to change things i acknowledge that but i have spoken even of that over the last 4 years against what you have just said because the big question of a lot of times and we get on to say that i don't think it was very very i don't think of it if you were to live in a small society more though you know the the way i spoke and what i said was very very clear o.c. c.r.p. the highly respected organized crime and corruption reporting project i'm sure you know it they named joseph must get person of the year for 2019 an annual award that highlights an individual who has done most to advanced organized criminal activity and corruption in a given year it's a pretty shameful ward to the man you worked for isn't that he has made it clear to him even in 2016 to towards going to be in his interest to take the necessary steps

to get those people in government who are involved with the money part of our papers and he didn't have to pay the huge price for it so how do you feel he deserves the award. i think i made it very clear to him that it was in his interest for a person to have contributed so much to a konami group to the introduction of civil liberties and more to then to have his record painted with that weather doesn't excuse him for what he did later doesn't know just because the economy was booming you know of course murder and corruption were also new many of them to have made it also very clear that the economic growth shouldn't come at any expense we should have occurred on the growth with rule of law and with clean government o.c. c.r.p. said that on the muskrats leadership criminality and corruption have flourished and in many cases gone unpunished creating an environment that led to the 27000 murder knicker on the goalie if they knew that the same message was coming from other international watchdogs you had to know what was going on yourself because you're

not completely and while i'm too and i'm not trying to get away from this. first of all one of the big problems that we have and again i'm not trying to explain it away is that in our small society personal networks personal relations are stronger than institutional once and at the expense of the public but it is going to feel sadness because unfortunately the rule of family or do lost friends is stronger than the rule of law and this is an issue that we have to deal with and of come to a point now that we cannot delay taking all the necessary steps and more. rageous assertion that minister say the personal relationships are worth more than the rule of law but if you're in government what's worth more than the rule of law yes but in small societies i'm saying and there again i'm not trying to excuse i will take a small island states like malta microstates which are not as the size of munich

but one 3rd of its population. it is true that when you look at the primary groups of friends and family and then the 2nd the groups are institutions should come in the 1st group and the 2nd group it's very poorest there's no bond there between one and the other all i'm saying is that in our society this it is a tougher more formidable challenge to make sure that there is the rule of law that there are rules and there are regulators who serve in government are expected to accept that challenge and roy is going to. give one of the things you limited was that you didn't take a stronger stand in 2016 against at least one of those minister friends of the former prime as the comrade mitzi who'd been named in the panama papers your biggest political mistake you called it even so your behavior was inexplicable wasn't it you called publicly for mit's his resignation but you refused to endorse the parliamentary vote of no confidence against him or because the way the motion

had been framed and then the amendments that were put to death made it possible for us to hold the government to my government to introduce measures to increase accountability there but in the end you helped to keep in office a man whose behavior in your own view had been shot the a new adequate mycenaean jeweled my single vote would it have made a difference it had every was going to vote makes a difference on islam but now doesn't it not but not in that case with you where you had suppose you started another regular you didn't stand for your prince hague i agree with you but i tried to use that to negotiate measures to hold the government to account now when it happened when it was impossible. well some measure started coming in but then when this time the news started coming after november i made it very clear that i was going to resign and they said either they go or i go and they made enough pressure for them to go. but the fact is that your

silence and your continued support of the former prime minister made you and your colleagues complicit in this dysfunctional corrupt system i tried to use internal pressure to get things done this time in november i told you remain i want only m.e.p. called part of this swamp of corruption and financial. i try to do my bit better they haven't done enough but i am committed to do all i can to because this is a very important time for us it's a moment of truth i would call it we have an existential crossroads since our independence 55 years ago we either get our house in order or we i think threaten our sovereignty and our livelihood the motor but there's been so many warnings like that before have and then they were ignored in 2017 your own chief justice silvio come in there it warned that instead of the rule of law 'd malta was heading to what he called the rule of delinquents now that was enough to change anybody's mind

then was it warning in stark sharp terms like the. debate when when things that have the become more clear for us because you might think that i'm trying to get away from what you're telling me but it's only recently that things became so clear to us what was happening i know that even in 2016 they warned that there was a shadow government and the network of decision makers that were that were influencing what was happened pretty didn't name names did you might think it was clear who i was referring really wasn't herdsman is extremely that i think it was the unit leave given that the same people were still in government and still are part of the establishment. i made internal pressure and i didn't manage to get them committed to concede that the whole system was in fact set up to to bypass independent scrutiny and prevent any kind of accountability wasn't it i mean the

pit the prime minister's office for instance took over responsibility for areas that presented particular opportunities for money laundering online gaming investment migration regulation of financial services it was clear that it was these areas were drowning in corruption and to buy the product getting the prime minister involved directly in them was keeping the regulators at bay wasn't it but i'm not i'm not i don't agree that all of these activities in all these different economic sectors are rotten and corrupt there are definitely parts which are and where one of the problems i think that we have had. irrespective of the share of human nature with designers the that there is when you have such strong economic growth and the regulators are not given enough resources or intentionally. to a certain instances kills the intention to a certain extent yes but not all of them either but for example when it comes to

financial investigations those have been given a lot of resources i think the biggest problem that we have and the weakest weakest link in the chain is the economic crimes unit of the police and unless that is beefed up and really resourced with well qualified people of integrity this problem will remain because ultimately we're going to be judged on how many people are prosecuted not what i'm telling you now or what we say in granting ground that's really difficult when the judges and magistrates were appointed by the prime minister was that were the case in a system described by the council of europe's parliamentary assembly as incompatible with judicial independence and the rule of law but i think this is not fair in this case for a very simple reason it does is government the appointment of magistrates and the judges have been more independent of the executive arm of government than ever before before the prime minister had talked to jurisdiction no it's not like that and i'm on it there is

a judicial appointment committee and we are intent definitely on taking the steps that the venice commission has indicated you through is to do so for known but we have started that i don't use it even in the last 30 that differ in the last week even sorry even in the last month apart from the last week sets have been taken for certain preventing those recommendations under dinu prime minister in may 2016 when you said things were fine. they plainly weren't were they you said the government had already started in 2016 to introduce a culture of better political responsibility and transparency that wasn't true will you know it all strong those were the measures that i told you about here but 3 years later the council of europe reported that major scandals were arising going unreported and uninvestigated for the 1st time we have we have introduced this is the contradiction of this government and of the most corrupt government as well for the 1st time we introduced measures to hold government to account that had never

been introduced before now where they were they were they weren't working or nuff but why give them away give them a free pass say a culture better political responsibility and transparency has been introduced then we have the parliament papers the electoral gas the further hilman the further vittles global health care for the golden passport all all time and again featuring the same key figures close to the prime minister and the police in several instances mysteriously failing to act and none of that was serious enough for you to say you've crossed my red lines you've crossed the many many times i did see it entirely. and they would be do we just limp was and still remains even now and we have to act about the economic crimes unit because it's not an afternoon people it's not that often with us to get them then you need to prosecute just about although you know much much more than you're telling them to do more than you've

ever told you know names you know places you know where the bodies are buried don't you. have you taken a vow of silence no i have it and if they are you afraid for you there is no one of them you've seen what happens to people no tell the truth and will know that you know there is that if there is anyone who has not taken a vow of silence is me because i have spoken up i have spoken up time and take notice you don't surround the subject you make cryptic comments like justice can be served without fear or favor without burning this country to cinders and without burning or hurting those who want justice done what on earth does not mean it's not critical to the earth does it mean who is it addressed to was addressed to my government but then they pull enough pressure for their change to happen you also there are on facebook the country cannot protect murderers money launderers and other criminals justice has to be done and i don't really wasn't the

country protecting these people was it was your fellow politicians and the royal 'd servants like you were either turning a blind eye or actively perverting the course of justice and pushing for that to happen it still has to happen and pushing for that to happen just about all who exactly was and is protecting murderers in malta who 1st of all when it comes to the assassination of the cabinet a little we have. a judicial process going on now because the alleged killers have been brought to justice but you know more than this don't you you know more than this i know more than this you know more you talk about murderers being protected i'm asking you very simply who's protecting them on malta who i keep on saying well i will keep on pushing for all the truth to come out but you're not answering my question i'm asking you one cannot give you not know of course and the bones of

because of the names why do journalists have the police if there are investigations i think i can assure you that i'm doing my duty in my own very being to the police . i'm doing my duty let i don't know what that means because you kept a 1000000 as i will who was clearly more corrupt than he should have been hugely so i will i will keep on pushing for all the truth to come out and they would stake my reputation on that how do we know that when you won't you know you are just you sit in front of the camera and you won't tell me what you will be judged you will be judged by what happens but it's this is exactly this climate of silence and these networks of criminal corruption that created a permissive environment and allowed someone to believe they could get away with the killing of definite corona girly and silence free journalism they have and will but they haven't got away with it they haven't got over it it we have had political assassinations before and no one was brought to justice at least in this case we've started doing these things this isn't the end of story no it's not the end of the

story and it cannot be the end of the story that all the truth is uncovered and by that by admitting that it isn't the end of the story you know that the story goes further and you know that this network that arranged for her assassination hasn't come to light yet has it but this won't has we have to keep on pushing for all the truth to be uncovered. we only have your word that you will do that and on the to do it it will happen they have the commitment of the prime minister as well and the minister for the interior who has started taking courage is the city but this investigation was tainted from the start for them to do that is the new law some of the council of europe warn that a series of magistrate should have been taken off the case because of conflicts of interest likewise the investigating police officer force claims that sayed said were made by the minister of the interior but progress in the investigation if that's not an investigation tainted with only the will because it did give results

and 11 important point in all this is that there are other services involved including the report so even if there are elements who want to cover up that information is available to the force beyond so that is a good guarantee that the whole truth will come up. that nicaragua gilead. didn't have much that was nice to say about you did she. understand the 2016 she wrote if the tolo were decent and honest with the of stuck with the labor party since the 1970 is of course not decent and honest people left in droves when they saw what was going on she's right isn't she and i don't think so and i don't agree with her comment i respect what she had this done but i think she was very prettiest leaves and if you were decent would have allowed himself to be part of muskrats power hungry bandwagon because the via and others worked it out from the outside he had to have known it from the inside that they were planning corrupt

deals and i don't agree with him because i did it in my own little way and i'm not trying to. put myself in the in the role of a knight in the china government in my own little way i did what i could to train change things since i've entered politics and these problems that she's writing about she didn't try to like that and the other part was in government i have tried to bring about changes in my own lives there together he wasn't just corrupt as you're aware that this is your home but i beg to differ i beg to differ. she reported what she saw in front of she reported what she saw going on in malta the time she were there has been to do a should try to clean before that i think it's unfair and the baton but it's just about all if you want malta's reputation response you're going to have to prove that this new government is better than the last ones of the sons are so far the signs are good no i don't think it's the other karen they're going to throw

yourself on the son of death he says must get the still the power behind the throne the huge networks of influence and fanatical support in the labor murty no i don't agree with mathew and the steps that have been taken during this month shows that there is a new good will to get things done really look no further than given that we can said and his family have been happy with the person who has been investigating the death of their of their mother because if they did not they did not say that the investigator was was corrupt so i didn't say i didn't say they did but look no further than the man with the new justice portfolio edward zammit described as a family friend of the muskets used to go on holiday with them but i can tell you again that the new subs of have been taken in the last month shows that there is a new good will we will be judged not paid to pete now but what you are saying now but what will happen in the next weeks and in the next month really it doesn't look

very much like it when the contract the government awarded a contract to disgraced former minister conrad mitzi. the man you wanted to resign after he was named in the panama paper he was offered a job as tourism consultant on $80000.00 euros a year which had to be cancelled rapidly after a huge public outcry differently now you say this government handout is at a loss can sit here and so baltar through public no question no i don't agree but why was he given a 2nd contract in the 1st place if he was about to be a legal route to a new broom sweeping up the corruption you bring in the book one of the most accurately terms of that contract was done before before the change nothing after that wasn't a contract signed but under the new prime minister and without public pressure he would have kept you know not you totally disagree and they're not what i'm telling you there was a lot of internal pressure and the board through the minister if you want a better reputation for malta

a lot of people going to have to tell the truth about the corruption in the murder and we've been pretty far from that aren't we especially given the continue attacks we're seeing on free journalism in malta you've actually taught journalists what i do a lot of not what are some for nuclear watchdog reporters without borders spoke last october of a hostile environment for independent. you're showing you don't leave us alone. don't journalists in malta and the prevalence of lawsuits to silence of public interest reporting they don't know what they're talking about you know nowhere in the sense that i'm not saying that they don't know what they're talking but again you might find that this is contradictory but it's true we have liberalized freedom of the press and loss of tribute to the press in the last 7 years we have decriminalized libel cases they are referring to a number of cases but to show to give the impression that that is rampant and that journalism in malta is in is in jeopardy or a risk is not fair malta is if you are in need follow if you are twaddle or what

our journalists strike and it's very robust and very strong criticism of what goes on more to it says is unique among a you countries for having extensive political control of the news media the 2 main political parties own their own t.v. and radio stations as well as both the daily and weekly print media and online portals and the international center for press and media freedoms at the worst risk for malta was a lack of political independence in the media haywood again the reality of a microstate where you either have certain excuse not just because you smith is trying to explain because whole how can you have a small newspaper which is viable in malta its side there you either have a political party doing it or you have the state doing good business organizations don't don't find viable to have a media so on a slick it is a big challenge to try and understand how to have a media system in malta which is part of the checks and balances in

a democratic society but i repeat that is coming out of the reality of our microstate and that's not only water that has this perhaps the most unpleasant aspects of your party has been its attempts to dehumanize stuff and occur in the glitzier not just while she was alive but after her murder. an undercover investigation into secret restricted labor party hate groups online published by the digital paper the shift showed labor party supporters celebrating her killing within hours of the crime being committed the journalist was described in the facebook post as an evil witch who should burn in hell are you proud of this part of your definitely not and that still be an acceptable and they made it very clear that it was thought to lyrics have been and totally unacceptable and i hope and i'm at least happy that in the last month even the national monument where

there is a memorial to her has not been disturbed at all and they really hope that near the sun it is a little more a good day on the hill it is a great deal more moral not to celebrate them saying that at least that is happening and they really hope that very nearby there would be a monument for her forward the word that she did the part that she did above to investigate her investigating corruption these facebook groups were actually administered by and home to senior government and labor party officials at one point the prime minister himself former prime minister was part of it what does that tell you about your beloved global pirtle that part i don't like and it's part of the local political culture which is not nice of the local political culture to celebrate her assassination calling her relatives a family of animals and completely unacceptable but there are fortunately it's part of the terminology sometimes a local political culture which cheetham terms used because the labor party supporters as red you think of the all the way to go to get

a new reputation with all this behind you don't you go through as i said you have to change change is painful but it would be more for you painful if we don't change every spatola thanks very much for being poor culprit so thank you.

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the big. this is new news live from berlin better rosen's turn as in force for a 7th straight day huge crowds gathered in minsk up the spot where a protester died earlier this week in clashes with police demonstrators are demanding new elections they have europe's support but a bottle to president alexander lukashenko calls on russia to back him up.