it is like to undermine all the global institutions what happened with the world health organization is horrendous and it's still taiwan on from this from distance from this entity it's surrenders and it's part of a of an ethnic sort of chauvinism slash racism sort of idea that came into being through pings reign where he like i mean it was not certainly not a free country before but it has been going down that alley of more openness but she reverted the policies of openness to an extended china before 2013 and china now is just like not recognize it and she wants to scrap entirely liberal democracy i have a few days he does want to and i think that it is a difference i mean of course china has in the last 7 decades has been an author tearing communist country but in the eighty's in the ninety's and even in the beginning of 2002 until 2010 everyone or a lot of people had the feeling ok it's opening up and maybe not it's not fully

democracy becoming a fully democracy in a western style but somehow it makes a china finds its way under see this. the opposite is happening and. to the question if china is a rival or a partner i would say of course i mean china is a big country with 1300000000 people and economy the economy is strong and the rest of the world of course has to keep on talking negotiating and communicating with china but uncertain terms human rights what's happening in bed in hong kong and dealing with taiwan i think. i would totally agree. i would call it is not a partner is an enemy and so i have i would say ok and if she is not willing to to to compromise on any terms i would say. the west of europe or and also germany

has to has to consider heart of measurements what can the europeans learn from the americans on dealing with beijing or why i think they i think they have a lot to learn from the americans this extraordinary level of research and knowledge going on in the us into china that i simply don't see in europe. i do see some in this and we have the europeans underestimate the chinese do we not taking them seriously because the chinese often give signals that they feel misunderstood oh yeah well of course they would i mean it's very helpful to argue that one is misunderstood and therefore to gain sympathy and that's of course what that's about is that you know gaining sympathy changing the atmosphere in democracies to settle for a dismissive oh i think it's a fact we can see how it happens through propaganda through the shaping of arguments the framing of arguments for the establishment of systems of support for the communist party's political authoritarianism even 30 here in germany us to my

research i uncovered a network of about 37 german organizations for china friendship which you know per se is is fine wonderful if it's independent for example but it's not because you know it was actually set up in a very carefully structured way from beijing that was outreach from beijing shall we do this and then one network connected to another and if you go into their website. they there is only pro-communist party discussion and debate that there is not another point of view so it's of really a really effective propaganda. influencing and interference system that that is coming out of beijing targeted at the west why because liberal democracy is dangerous for a communist system and a congress system cannot tolerate opposition because it's it's well by definition it's a one party so it can't hold it opposition so what's happening is that in order to make the world safe for china if you like the communist party it has to somehow control manager shape criticism debate and discussion elsewhere in the world is

simply has to happen otherwise it gets too dangerous a home for the party and that's the point where the real frictions starts and that's the point where i think we've arrived at now ok alexander up next we we we talked about the americans american president donald trump has for years taken a tougher approach on china than the europeans and as a result washington and china have been locked in a bitter and destabilizing trade war and there's a huge showdown over the globally successful social media platform ticktock the u.s. fears that parent company by dunces passing uses details on to the chinese authorities washington says china must sell off the u.s. branch of its business or the will be banned in the u.s. by duns denies all allegations alexander what do you read into all that what does that tell us about where we are i mean it's obvious that in we spoke about this already dead like chinese the communist party is like a vital part of each company operating in china so days no doubt about the fact that what if you want to be successful as a company in china you have to somehow. b.

in an arrangement with the party it's absolutely monolithic i mean i wouldn't i don't know how you know prevailing dad engagement is but literally when we talk about who our way and 5 g. technology it is it would be like insane to think that the chinese government has no involvement in this so it makes absolute sense on the end of the free to just say no we don't want to hear that germany is like still i get the position where it like like you know with a spotless and a vest which just tries to meddle something but i feel like in to your question and what you said like in germany compared to america we're just very comfortable with ideas we deployed like decades ago like for instance china is the claim has never been expensive power so 1st of all the people say that i certainly know experts in chinese history but even if it were true in the whole pos of the chinese the chinese culture and states it's not the case anymore we see like it's very

expensive on many many levels not only the ones that you said so it what it needs to be done instead of course you have to rethink your strategy your fun policy and that hasn't happened in the last years here maybe because it's the last 10 years of chancellor merkel has done explicitly ran on this platform of like taking job spec and whatever that's a totally different story but it targeted china in a way that i feel many in many capitals of europe politicians were actually envying and in a sense as if somebody in the end just finally has the courage to speak up. you know when this clash of systems that's going to. perhaps not very who's going to prevail in the medium to long to. ok that's a difficult question because. depending i think in the long term. do i can say i do not believe that the chinese system will win because. the system itself has too many problems and people in china are need be i mean you don't have

surveys a whole a whole how comfortable they feel with a communist party but i'm sure there are a lot of people who suffer in the system and soul. democracy is. of course a system what. of course a lot of chinese also want so i think so definitely i would say in the long term the problem is the timing i'm not to you nobody can tell how long the communist party were on the shoes she jinping will still to reign but you know that's a difficult question yeah well i mean currently he wants to kind of rule forever he thinks that on the day and in trendy 18 when the law was changed to to enable him to to rule forever he could be secretary general the party anyway but the presidential term was time limits was taken away i think in europe there's this

sort of rather unhealthy relationship that's built up with the united states now and in some ways i sort of understand it there's been long dependency you know there are different cultures etc but you know so if people feel uncomfortable about looking to the united states because donald trump being toxic as he is at present i think that's probably a fair comment in europe look to australia 26 people 2023 chinese 6 something like that 20 plus 1000000 people they are actually the leaders in many ways and they in fact lead to date interesting ideas that lead the united states in terms of research action analysis pushback beginning around 2010 this has not been welcomed in china i know so they're having extreme problems now but i think you know i mean europe should absolutely look to a stray or there are lots of countries in europe which are approximately the same size as the strayer course the us is very biggest difficult system ecosystem to somehow copy a replicate not possible perhaps in europe ok look to strength see how they do

things there why they do things there above all that's for europe will be hugely important lesson because i once read the taiwanese foreign minister joseph who when in the constitution of taiwan it's still like britain that there unification with the mainland is a go and i said minister how do you ever going to achieve that and he looked at me . at the moment when china becomes a democracy i feel that's what the most what is most threatening to see is that in taiwan and hong kong there is a sliding democracy japan and korea that's. so and it is people opposing xi jinping also in the communist party also like people in the family like the great formal open china up so it's important for us now to strengthen those pods in china and not give up hope that there is actually a longing and a getting for democracy so what's your banner headline now for where we are in relations between germany europe and china at this point we literally have to see what's going to happen in 2023 when she i mean he wants to be elected again and it

will be an election i don't see it coming but it still is like kind of a benchmark to see what's going to happen then because if you like staying on forever china the pro-war into something that is russia today or tacky maybe it also like use investor. confidence and whatnot so that's going to be like the decisive moment in. dealing with china don't be afraid but be cautious. and try to see things and try to differentiate. moving away from the obsession with the people's republic of china i would say look. it's wonderful thank you. one german politician i think is right we've been talking about china a partner or rivals in time much for joining us to come back next time round.

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a day dolly. cut. this is the w. news live from israel returns to a nationwide locked out stay at home restrictions come back into force ahead of the jewish new year ask corona virus infections rise sharply that measures further damage an economy already struggling also the 1st look. also on the program india's government urges students to return to school starting next week. there was well

there are doubts about whether schools can really keep children safe.