she assured her. i love you sure. but how could the world's with the biggest composer of all time i can't even begin to imagine a world class for employer single will insist on a musical journey of discovery. 2 world without being told. this week on to. keep lines of communication open keep trading and change will come for decades and that was the mantra in relations between europe and china that softly softly approach is being replaced by a clash of political cultures in the midst of the corona pandemic beijing has been snapping up floundering european companies clamping down on democracy in hong kong

and imposing surveillance systems on its own citizens as europe and china are apparently drifting further apart while the u.s. and beijing fight out a bitter trade war here on to the point we ask old rival how dangerous is china. we. are thanks so very much for joining us here on to the point where my studio guests are political scientists t.v. kirsten tough blow who believes that china will do away with a liberal democracy if the west allows it to also with us is journalist felix levy who argues that europe must be hard and firm in its dealings with the chinese leadership just like the chinese themselves and a warm welcome to 2 over alexander girl who say as long as they're a concentrate. camps in china can never be normal relations with that country.

thank you all 3 for those initial comments felix i'd like to begin with you it has not been a good week for already troubled relations between the e.u. and china one senior member of the european parliament a green member of the parliament said those relations are now as bad as it any time in recent decades do you agree. well the summit didn't show this because i mean it was a very short summit it was only. between the europeans chinese china and merkel as the president came up and also on this is from the line and it seems like business as usual but i must agree on the position i'm not sure if it's a good sign because there are a lot of topics which should have been talked about and should have negotiated much harder and it seems like this didn't happen so it is a bad sign ok tedi just an initial comment from you europe for

a long time believed in hopes that if there were if we kept talking to each other then they would that would lead to peace and prosperity and more understanding it hasn't happened that way it's all has it now it hasn't because the realities of power a much tougher than that unfortunately and i think the challenge of dealing with a communist party such as the chinese one which is really forged in huge amount of conflict and underground activity as well really almost i don't want to say beyond the capacities of liberal democracies but i think a certain stretch our capacities to the very limit. xander let's bring you in in the last year or 2 the e.u. has gone over to describing china as a systemic rival was not me well i mean china has deployed its own ideas in international institutions for instance and aid i did nations where they propagate their own idea of human rights which is basically one which is without any civic.

it's both like social rights you say like you give do you want something to eat and that you should be thankful for so china has been undermining the liberal institutions not trying to abolish them but like to be like changing the game the games are that the rules of the game you know you're not against him just to give us an idea about on top of all the things that you talk about already what role does the corona pandemic play in all this you know covert 19 wherever it came from. in china as it emerged there really has obviously brought things into very sharp focus and i think is being used as an opportunity by beijing to buy into europe or to try to bind your very closely to china along the lines of you know here's a crisis we must pull together our interests of the same and then the the the pushbutton points come the talking points you know health is going to argue against health cooperation multilateralism who's going to argue against cooperation

multilateralism it can't do that without seeming really kind of unpleasant and nasty and of course this is what donald trump is in some ways doing and look what the reaction is in europe but you know the again the realities of the power realities behinds i commenced coming out of beijing are such that i think that we really need to question ourselves much more strongly about how we're reacting for the americans meanwhile my pump air has said there has been an awakening because of corona and because of china's aggression interest in trade and diplomacy but i think trust has plummeted people are horrified and no no no wonder. it's you know it's it's a cliche say things are complicated but that they are quite complicated with china i think so so we've got a lot of talking and walking out to do going forward. if the. the leitmotif role is so far has been changed through trade amount no longer applies what is the new leitmotif what is a new watch word for the where we are now. a lot i feel like. at this

point we have to sort out our general guidelines of policies with china as in like the one china policy is obsolete because the people's republic is threatening taiwan which is like not part of the one china deal we have seen what happened in hong kong which is also like a breaking on international contract like international law we see like the horrendous things that happen in changing and out of cracking down on in among golyer so literally as. i hope agreeing that genocide is not an opinion it's just literally before we talk about trade and the modalities of trade it's just literally the dog what country do you want to be china. economy has changed the relationship. between europe especially germany and china has changed and i sometimes doubt the people here in germany especially the government if they have realized how much it have changed i mean china is not longer just big huge market

where you can sell german machines but china china has become a rival on a lot of terms and. the difference is that behind chinese companies there's always a strong communist party and a strong communist government and sometimes i have a feeling that here people do things ok we are business we're on the same level we're not they have a very powerful government behind it and here a lot of german companies are you pink companies they don't have a let's just watch one short report because there is one thing that certain there's massive mistrust between the e.u. and china certainly around europe there's a lot of concern a lot of anger of what's been seeing is bargain hunting chinese investors taking advantage of the corona pandemic to snap up struggling companies here's one example from germany that will talk. kitchens made in germany such as those from pog in

paul are among the best in the world after 120 years of company history the german kitchen manufacturer is now in chinese. in order to secure long term survival at the hereford facility it was necessary over the last few months to initiate the sales process the pen demick was certainly a factor that moved us to expedite this process and. china is investing billions around the world but there is a fear that chinese corporations are taking over companies on such a large scale for a very specific reason chinese want to be global leaders in important emerging markets within a few years to achieve this the need for know how which they are buying with state support and that is of course part of the distortion of the market which is not ok you know it's not just what can europe do about this. so that we all want talking about the economy again and cast into. something that she wants to go to to

express very important yeah i mean i suppose one looks at these stories about public pool for example or med which is another company that makes medical ventilators that was bought by chinese interests i think in march this year in the you know it's a covert 1000 crisis in europe and. you see sort of all the self you know it's like these 2. system value systems as they are the democratic one and this is terry and want to put it politely i think you know i really have somehow thought that they were paying the same game but they're not playing the same game you know the one side is playing tennis the other side is playing badminton how is that going to work you know that there are these the fundamentalists agreements just aren't there about about a lot of issues and i think that you know in we thought for many years now for decades now with china that. somehow you know capitalism would win the day and and china would change in fact china is changing us i see that all the time in the

discourse in the in the narrative about about how things are here and you know i think we really need also need to question our assumptions that money somehow has has morality embedded into it i don't think money i.e. trade or capitalism necessarily has morality i think it's about making money and i think that it's the job of politics politicians civil society and other people to insist on the right parameters within which relations and also trade can take place for example your boats if you like i would trade agreements now have a different nature as they used to have like let's say 30 years ago it's about environmental issues it's about rights so does a well implemented now in trade agreements the european union forces and that is also put it puts you on clash with china i remember in colombia and chile where they had for tried to build some infrastructure projects and then the governments there said well then you employ because then they said no we bring our own and then of course then it's a business model if you have to implement about us rights environmental issues so

you and the chinese didn't have a business case anymore so i feel like we have the human rights violations big time what i said before but on top of that was that the nature of our trade agreements is different than it used to be 40 years ago. view to put things in place i mean germany still is a much bigger investor in china than vice versa so a very not more not necessarily bad. my niece companies invest in little german companies help them because a lot of these little family companies they have problems to find successors and so it's not necessarily bad the problem is when china is trying to do the investing in in the help with the help of the government in also strategic companies like i'm talking about infrastructure i'm talking about 5 g. network which is now also very important and i think this is the problem that the europeans and especially germany doesn't half a dozen recognize that there is

a strategy behind and they just need to let this happen this is a problem so i think this term it's the german government or the europeans who have to make their homework and put borders and say ok there are certain companies which are not for sale think that's right i mean we've europe has really been stupendously naive in many ways i think and part of that is a normative power of european values self belief economic systems the kind of capitalism that we have had in europe and in the united states we thought it had again had this kind of moral power to change other people we put those terms into the trade agreements you're quite right and then it'll change everything well no because that's not what you know other government other systems want they don't want those parts of the agreements really it seems to me they will sign it to make the deal go but they will then try and work against it and my concern with china as well is that even if. you know it was this comprehensive agreement on investment

even if something is reached which i'm highly skeptical about is going to happen this year is there also you know anything that does happen is going to be tiny it's going to be reduced or we saw a sign of that with the german wine and b.n.a. can deal etc you know math yeah drinks peanuts right. so so you know again i think that i mean i think the whole trade thing is complex etc but we do need to sort of ask ourselves what we're doing or whether we have just convinced ourselves that we're completely right about a lot of stuff which i think we are right things to be honest especially human rights area but whether or not that is actually going to be enough to deal with china to do basic assumption is and you alluded to it a few times that it's like once you have trade going on it also automatically you somewhat open up societies and to dispose in societies and that's actually true like in hong kong where you were when you were still allowed to do that it was flourishing in democratic ways taiwan is a fully functioning democracy so only if autocrats like she put pressure on these

countries use technological means they can. oppress the sort of democratic movement but the basic assumption that we had in the for you which is not only the best but it's also taiwan japan south korea as it's extending over the whole globe with just a vest and fantasy or idea where you can moan you like you set of values wherever you can you want democracy and that's actually also the threat is using being that like in hong kong and taiwan people just choose something different than his aquatic system which he sells to the world as the inherent chinese model of governance. are central question here on the show today we're having to address it we haven't put it yet this is trying or a poet no or a rival how to how do you see that in the context of what you've just been saying about these competing systems and under the leadership of xi jinping china has become an adversary of the rest of the world and not nowadays it's a little like an enemy so the year really and i don't know cirie and an enemy of the rest of the world of the. biggest like the ideas like to undermine all the

global institutions what happened with the world health organization is horrendous and to exclude taiwan un from this from distanced from this entity it's horrendous and it's part of a of an ethnic sort of shoving isms lesh racism sort of idea that came into being through pings reign where he like i mean it's china was not certainly not a free country before but it has been going down that alley of more openness but she reverted to policies of openness to an extent of china before 2013 and china now is just like not recognize it and she wants to scrap entirely liberal democracy . i have a few days he does want to and i think that it is a difference i mean of course china has in the last 7 decades has been an author or a tear in communist country but in the eighty's in the ninety's and even in the beginning of 2002 until 2010 everyone or a lot of people had the feeling ok it's opening up and maybe not it's not fully

democracy becoming a fully democracy in a western style but somehow it makes its china finds its way under see this. the opposite is happening and. to the question if china is a rival or a partner i would say of course i mean china is a big country with 1300000000 people and economy the economy is strong and the rest of the world of course has to keep on talking negotiating and communicating with china but uncertain terms human rights what's happening inching young n.t. bit in hong kong and dealing with taiwan i think. i would totally agree. i would call it is not a partner is an enemy and so i have i would say ok and if she is not willing to to to compromise on any terms i would say the west the europe or and also germany

has to has to consider heart of measurements what can the europeans learn from the americans on dealing with beijing oh i think they i think they have a lot to learn from the americans this extraordinary level of research and knowledge going on in the us into china that i simply don't see in europe. i do see some of the europeans underestimate the chinese do we not taking them seriously because the chinese often give signals that they feel misunderstood oh yeah well of course they would i mean it's very helpful to argue that one is misunderstood and therefore to gain sympathy and that's of course what that's about is that you know . any sympathy changing the atmosphere in democracies to set the rules for additional civ the no i think it's a fact we can see how it happens through propaganda through the shaping of arguments the framing of arguments for the establishment of systems of support for the communist party's political authoritarianism even 30 here in germany us to my

research i uncovered a network of about $37.00 german organizations for china friendship which you know per se is is fine wonderful if it's independent for example but it's not because you know it was actually set up in a very carefully structured way from beijing that was outreach from beijing shall we do this then one network connected to another and if you go into their website. they there is only pro communist party discussion and debate that there is not another point of view so it's of really a really effective propaganda. influencing and interference system that that is coming out of beijing targeted at the west why because liberal democracy is dangerous for a communist system and economy system cannot tolerate opposition because it's it's well by definition it's a one party so it can't tolerate opposition so what's happening is that in order to make the world safe for china if you like the communist party it has to somehow control manager shape criticism debate and discussion elsewhere in the world it

simply has to happen otherwise it gets too dangerous a home for the party and that's the point where the real frictions starts and that's the point where i think we've arrived at now ok xander up next we we we talked about the americans american president donald trump has for years taken a tougher approach on china than the europeans and as a result washington and china have been locked in a bitter and destabilizing trade war and there's a huge showdown over the globalism testable social media platform take talk the u.s. fears that parent company by dunces passing use of details on to the chinese authorities washington says china must sell off the u.s. brand. it's business all the will be banned in the u.s. by dunce denies all allegations alexander what do you read into that what does that tell us about where we are. in spoke about this already dead like chinese or communist party is like a vital part of each company operating in china so days no doubt about the fact

that what if you want to be successful as a company in china you have to somehow. be in an arrangement with the polity it's absolutely monolithic i mean i wouldn't i don't know how you know preventing dad engagement is but literally when we talk about who our way and 5 g. technology it is it would be like insane to think that the chinese government has no involvement in this so it makes absolute sense on the end of the free to just say no we don't want to hear that germany is like still going to position where it could like go with a spotless and a vest which is tries to meddle something but i feel like in to your question and what you said like in germany compared to america we're just very comfortable with ideas we deployed like decades ago like for instance china is the claim has never been expensive power so 1st of all the people say that suddenly no experts in chinese history but even if it were true in the whole pos of the chinese the chinese culture and states it's not the case anymore we see like it's very

expensive on many many levels not only the ones that you said so it but it needs to be done instead of course you have to rethink your strategy your phone policy and that hasn't happened in the last years here maybe because it's the last 10 years of chancellor merkel has done explicitly ran on this platform of like taking job spec and whatever that's a totally different story but it targeted china in a way that i feel many in many capitals of europe politicians were actually envying in a in a sense as if somebody in the end just finally has the courage to speak up. you know when this clash of systems that's going to. perhaps not very for who's going to prevail in the medium to long to. difficult question. i think. because.

you don't have. a communist party but i'm sure there are a lot of people who. of course a lot of chinese also want so i think so definitely i would say in the long term the problem is the timing i'm not there you nobody can tell how long the communist party were on this thing were still simmering but you know. that's a difficult question yeah well i mean currently he wants to kind of rule forever he thinks that on the day and in 2018 when the law was changed to to enable him to to rule forever he could be secretary general the party anyway but the presidential term was term limits was taken away i think in europe there's this sort of rather

unhealthy relationship that's built up with the united states now and in some ways i sort of understand that this been long dependency you know there are different cultures etc but you know so if people feel uncomfortable about looking to the united states because donald trump being toxic as he is at present i think that's probably a fair comment in europe look to australia 26 people 2023 chinese 6 something like that 20 plus 1000000 people they are actually the leaders in many ways and they in fact lead to date interesting ideas that lead the united states in terms of research action analysis pushback beginning around 2010 this has not been welcomed in china i know so they're having extreme problems now but i think you know i mean europe should absolutely look to history or there are lots of countries in europe which are approximately the same size as the strayer course the u.s. is very big is the difficult system ecosystem to somehow replicate not possible perhaps

in europe ok look just try to see how they do things their why they do things there above all that's for europe will be hugely important lesson i once read the taiwanese foreign minister joseph who when in the constitution of taiwan it's still like britain that there unification with the mainland is a go and i said minister how do you ever going to achieve that and he looked at me . at the moment when china becomes a democracy i feel that's the most what's most threatening to see is that in taiwan and hong kong democracy japan and korea that's not our democracies and its people opposing xi jinping also in the communist party also like people in the family but the great informal open china up so it's important for us now to strengthen those pods and in china and not give up hope that there is actually a longing and a getting for democracy so what's your banner headline now for where we are in relations between germany europe and china at this point we literally have to see what's going to happen in 2023 when she i mean he wants to like be elected again be

an election i don't see it coming but it still is like kind of a benchmark to see what's going to happen then because if you like staying on forever china the pro-war into something that is russia today or tacky maybe it also like news investor. confidence and what not so that's going to be like the decisive moment in. felixstowe dealing with china don't be afraid but be cautious. and try to see the french. moving away from session with the people's republic of china i would say look to other parts of the world. it's wonderful thank you. one german politician i think is right we've been talking about china a partner on rival santorum much for joining us to come back next time around bye bye.

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