you know something like. the team doesn't like. to do such. 60 minutes. in the. country. for. what's in store. for the future. for the major cities. in such. terms. i'm very very disappointed the fault that we're with you don't exactly have them shaking in their boots you believe crying to get that doesn't sound like either do. the dialogue with russia but you need to be very clear and that's for real for years berlin foreign policy line has been dialogue 1st keep talking no matter what but as russian opposition leader alexina bowling recovers in

a german hospital after an apparent poisoning inside syria berlin is under increasing pressure to respond with unprecedented strength by canceling or pausing the nearly completed north stream to gas pipeline with russia my guest this week is germany's deputy foreign minister nails on it is it time for a tougher stance against authoritarians in russia and beyond even if there is a financial cost. german minister of state meals on and welcome to conflicts on appeared to have few . tests confirm that alexina volley was poisoned with the military grade chemical weapon you know who took the german chancellor she has demanded answers from russia she says the following there are very difficult questions that only the russian government can answer and must answer. russian response has been defiant

will there be needing full sanctions well i still hope that we can prevent this but this is entirely the russian government's decision and i have to say i want to be very clear very very disappointed about that reaction because instead of making clear what happened and to cooperate in an investigation we are seeing the old scheme you know of misleading information of counter accusations so if that is the spirit of the russian government then i'm afraid we're going to see this so we're still in a negotiation so you say it's in the russian government's hands and in fact you've called for an investigation in russia but the foreign minister says there are several indications russia was behind the attack you're asking russia to investigate what do you expect well look there is the procedure here and you mentioned that indeed it looks like we are we are certain that it has been poisoned

from some of a truck group. and actually right now it's not only a german investigation and we gave the probe also to our laboratories in sweden and france and we also gave it to z o p c w so it is quite obvious that this is a breach of international law so i think we are talking not only about a tragedy involving mr no values this is an international dimension so russia is in a position and has the ability to clarify what happened but but we also in in our intention to defend the international procedures i think we need to have that process here and the process is not over but in that process mr annan they're not taking you seriously are in a i mean just let's just look at some of the rhetoric that coming from the foreign minister which think we have an international reaction this is not reduced to

germany there's a clear statement from the european union the world takes notice so i don't think they don't take a serious i just things that they are falling back into what we know is the typical russian here are their words foreign minister lavrov accused western officials of quote putting themselves above the law with and since to unsubstantiated accusations against moscow over the poisoning of no volley we also have a statement from the foreign ministry saying berlin is bluffing serving a dirty political agenda you don't exactly have them shaking in their boots look that but but this is just confirming what they tried to tell you is that we have very disappointed to see you know the all the way of reacting to accusations instead of really engaging and i am sure it is the russian credibility is that there will be be infringed by this so we are united in the european union we feel very encouraged by the international reaction and we are not only. talking

about this case and not the only case of poisoning off an opposition leader we are talking about a serious step to the mining what have been a more or less successful international coal mine in chile chemical weapons so i i think we're not at the end here and exactly think i should might be violating the russian side needs to know that. are on the table let's talk about you you mentioned an old way of doing things from from the russians and talk about the way that you have been doing things i asked you about meaningful sanctions because we know that sanctions are already in place of course since 2014 since the russian invasion of crimea but since then we have seen further aggression from russia we've seen the hacking attacks on the german parliament 2015 we've seen the assassination of a chechen rebel in broad daylight in central berlin last year following that murder your foreign ministry you reportedly submitted 17 requests for assistance in

solving that murder and received not a single response. is just sanctions really going to pressure russia in the way that you need to you know what i'm very happy indeed that you mention those incidents i'm sitting here as a minister of state but i am also a member of the german parliament so what happened there was the hacking attack as a serious serious revelation of our weight deal among countries that should have a friendly relationship and many other incidents also see the targeted use you know of measures of fake news to troll factories that we are seeing that us are part of the reality but it's also part of the reality that we don't have we don't have a remote control to influence russian policies decisions are taking in moscow not

in berlin but what the support and here and the sink we are making progress that the european union speaks with one was that the russian side now said to their surprise to page but we also need to be realistic we need russia to solve a great many of issues concerning our own neighborhood our stability so i think our approach to do both to be very clear but also engage washer i cannot really see an opportunity to that let's talk about the voice that you're speaking with because you have the nearly completed north stream 2 pipeline which is set to bring more russian gas to germany and i'd like to ask you do you think that putin really takes your threat of meaningful sanctions need in full consequences seriously when you have such a profitable economic project right on his doorstep so i look at that only shows how complex our relationship is i want to be also

a little provocative of my answer here because i am not so sure. at stopping that project last winter but which by the way it's not an initiative of the german government it is by its anointed by the german government it is by definition a problem wanted by the terrorist government now let's put that aside but you know would we do something that really works. make russia pay a price or would we also somehow do some things that goes against our own long term interests so that's why i'm not so convinced i understand this is that it has always been a controversial issue but it's maybe too easy just to reduce our political tool box on the question of whether or not we should continue nosferatu i am was all respect not convinced that this is the only and so that we should get so you turn to your partners now your partners including in the the e.u.

including also the united states and you've asked them you want to put forward a joint response but they've always had problems with this project haven't in many among them have had problems with this project partners have expressed security concerns that north stream too would allow putin to cut off gas supply to former soviet bloc countries without affecting flows to the west cut off ukraine potentially where 40 percent of the natural gas imported by the e.u. from russia flows through north stream one to neglect your own partners concerns look there are 2 things i want to tell you for one thing that maybe surprised you and our viewers that the european union is much more united on this and you maybe think we had a number out there all this prime minister yeah well we say this reaction should leave the 1st of the stoppage of work of nordstrom to what strengthens russian power not 6 you know n.e.p.

is bad yes in 1018 but you can insert so you uniquely lead me to choose the european way but not the germany way for that you need to let out you don't feel like unity you need to let me complete that sentence because we had 24 european member states supporting a political the march on washington raising concerns about the american reaction which is threatening with extra territorial sanction our sovereign decision about our energies. just for a 2nd think about the european union would put in place a lot sanctioning american companies that's that witness that me pick one example for example the the astonishing fact that nobody speaks about dizzee americans right now by oil from russia almost and the wall humans that we are buying gas from russia so you know we need to look at the factory and the 2nd part is.

german government at the top the chancellor and the foreign minister have been engaged and are engaged to safeguard ukraine score interest as he said the deal that we signed with the european union broke up but de facto it was brokered by our government between ukraine on the one hand and the russian federation on the other hand make sure that key concerns of our partners within the european union and in kiev have been implemented so as i said it's too simple just to say my closing austrian too will solve the problem i really don't want it if if if anyone really believes that you're going to take a hard line on russia that ultimately when push comes to shove even when it does come to ukraine because for example you and the foreign minister michael moss are both s.p.d. politicians and probably as p.d. in the us today that there are many who are strongly opposed to halting the

construction of this pipeline for s.s.i. they have you know that there are star of the other there are in all i want. also says the following all of it more it seems to pipeline from russia to germany should not be used to punish moscow over the poisoning of a kremlin critic alexy novelli the seductive site on has called the s.p.d. the north stream party they have a point don't they know they say that they say that you're motivated by a traditional empathy with russian that they don't have a point i'd like to remind you you know we're used as social democrats that we're pro sobering here in our positions you know we're somehow getting used to this kind of accusation but that doesn't make them correct you know and if you policy of course is highly political we need to make sure that there's a clear makes between the renewable we need reaching technology garces much more efficient and less harm to the environment we have to address an elephant in the room because we were talking about the s.p.d.

we're talking about your party. and its relationship with russia the elephant of the room of course when we talk about north stream is. former chancellor former s.p.d. head chairman of the project the wall street journal there are strode out putin's most important all of our work the the what do you know how football with that do you feel comfortable with that it is that putin's most important goal god wall street journal has traditionally been maybe not the most sympathetic to the social democrats but that tell you something i have been maybe the most vocal critic of theatricals policy and you know he is somebody who needs to accept public criticism for privatization he takes but he is a private to the citizen he is not sitting in an alley body of the s.p.d. so the esprit de cannot be blamed for what is it really realistic though that he is a private citizen haphazardly it is ok so he's a private citizen so we were talking about meaningful sanctions part of the

meaningful sanctions was that they would be targeted sanctions against individuals correct you have spirit so therefore if it's just a private person working for putin should he be among the individuals who might be targeted in ascensions regime gets what as a result has all of the poison in. a sea of we're trying to get me but i'm not going to defend the private decision by a former translator who in other parts i think. has been very successful and important for germany always knew that if you want to exert to maximum or fracture on russia the maximum in russia but but this is what he is doing was not stream is feeling a seed. for the european companies so you know that there's always the net and there's that narrative so it's this is only a german project there are actually companies from other european partners also and

off so i think it will. leasing we're no spending and it's your questions i'm trying to answer that's ok with me but we're spending more time talking about last week to right now then we're spending time on talking about our difficult relationship with russia and i also want to again the remotest arc of the relationship with russia of course and i said you've got your enclosing rank anomic ties with russia it is a complex relationship you know our american friends say you have an ocean between them and russia we don't we have the joint and shared history russia is not going to go away and that decision about where russia saudi may be influenced by us but that russian decision so we are talking about peace in libya you need to talk with russia we're talking about peace and syria like it or not you need to talk with russia and there are many other aspects so we are trying so dialogue that we dialogue no matter why we have dialogue or not very much to the causes no matter

what russia doesn't know we this is very important to me because it's really what i believe in is that we are in a world where apparently many of the step louche rules are not binding countries like russia unfortunately even sometimes countries that we are more close to so germany is in the central position geographically in europe it's the most important economy we are not you know projecting military power so we are we need to rely on the willingness and ability to apply by those rules and that's what we are trying so you cannot cut off the dialogue with russia but you need to be very clear on that and that's what we are let's talk about another country where you have a lot of dialogue we have to mention let's go to china now also in the news for its continued infringement of human rights and rule of law similar to russia in a speech before the parliament on september 10th you said the following human rights are a central element of our china policy. how's that working out for the pro-democracy

protesters and on what we are and i hope that i'm not going you know it's not i'm not intending to to criticize any of our european partners but do really think sometimes we need as a government to explain more what we're doing is saying that germany is maybe the only relevant country right now that is addressing human rights issues with china on every high level meetings that we are having sometimes we do that publicly sometimes though we don't do that publicly because we're talking about individual cases we have an established human rights dialogue and and quite frankly we tried to celebrate the e.u. we're trying out some of that in order to generate more european unity also on human rights but outlet is about the message that you are sending that you might

have the dialogue but the message the real message that you're sending how can china really believe that you are serious on human rights when in every state visit you show up with a huge business delegation and i'd just like to go to the last one with the german chancellor angela merkel that was in september of 29000 where amid the crackdown on the pro-democracy protesters in hong kong she sat along the tinies premier and in her visit it was crowned by overseeing the signing of 13 business deals between german and chinese executives in the great hall of the people in tiananmen square is a trade off for human rights because that's what it looks like i don't think that it looks like that i don't see that this is a contradiction i mean if if if the policy would be to completely exclude china from political landscape and from our political thinking. well i think we are not going to serve our interests and i am very concerned that

this is going to happen if we are look listening to some of the very inflammatory rhetoric right now we need to wipe falling back into the logic of a new cold war but you ask about the effectiveness of our policies and i can tell you that there are many cases and some are prominent cases like that whatever of the noble prize winner who came into freedom and could leave the country because of very very high level interventions from germany and they're back not always the case they're there and i'd like to i'd like to bring in i just want to say is that there is. and i mean we cannot ignore that there is a temptation for many leaders around the world. not to do that what we're doing is from a government because they believe that if they don't address human rights issues

that may be because going to philosophically speaking and that's not what we're doing and i'm very proud of philosophically speaking when we look at your overall diplomatic strategy we have for example your economy minister saying just back in july in a conversation with politico he said i still believe in transformation through trade transformation through trade when it comes to china your own german industry association has come out and said they published a paper last year calling for a tougher approach to tyner their message was the west's strategy for opening china has failed its yeah this is a wake up call but they have said it's going to be the case of china isn't it isn't both outdated and naive to think you're going to have transformation they're not married one is not happening to make one comment because you were or are really asking the system on the question of me and my boss cycle miles being members of the social democratic party so so no you're trying to put me into responsibility

for something well you're part of the government does that equate you're part of the government with your christian democratic partners and i can tell you that. i think we had maybe a dictate where we were social democrats and christian democrats and liberals and greens or whatever it may be too optimistic about the impact of our economic engagement on the mocker city and human rights as think this is a very obvious china change to that guiding policy of soft drink shopping so to bide your time never takes the lead that is over with risp presidency and that's why we're in the middle and that's why i welcome your questions. we are in the middle of a debate how to readjust our policy and i think we need to defend or ok with stronger but we shouldn't cut off or a white house with china you need allies to deal with china absolutely russia you absolutely do let's look at the seat of your alliances right now the u.s.

is pulling 12000 troops out of germany it's reportedly because you didn't meet your defense spending goals the nato 2 percent goal of g.d.p. for dispense spending what does that say about the state of your diplomacy that this announcement reportedly 1st of all caught you by surprise shouldn't you have seen it coming from the us up what he said they would well there would be consequences well look i mean. we don't believe that reducing troops and draw money as an instrument to harm draw money or to castigate trueman those troops the few look carefully about what they are doing they are serving the interests of the united states armed forces and they are part of the deterrence where not only germany is benefiting but europe us a whole so we had some problems to understand the logic behind that decision but it is the know what the problems understand you're not spending 2 percent of

g.d.p. you're not on track to spending 2 percent of g.d.p. this is a commitment that you made to your allies at the nato summit in wales and 2014 a commitment that look if you don't appear to be intent on fulfilling that well up to the numbers of the appropriations that we made in terms of defense spending there are no secret there were known in washington so if they look at what we're doing it's clear that we are on that we are on track to quote you that we are massively increasing our defense spending but by the way not because somebody in the united states is demanding that from us. but because we see that the world is changing that we talked about it russia getting more assertive we have conflicts in their own neighborhood so that's the reason why we're doing this at and so i think we cannot neglect that we have political differences that it's a very you know i want similarly minister here for i this is

a unique style of the american president but it's a basis of our relationship is stronger than but ultimately here between us that mr alternately when we look at the big picture when we look at the broad picture when we look at the actions not just the talk but the actions that your government and your country is taking you're adhering to deals and russia the north stream to project which is probably what you want us to restart the question again what you don't really need to be discussed i'm also you have you have a very robust trade relationship with china that is increasing countries where there are open human rights offenders. but you're not fulfilling your commitments to allies like nato for example when it comes to increase in defense spending is this really the way forward look for german diplomacy and is this really what takes you into the next decades and beyond look we are only talking so we are doing this because of our own interest if german fighter planes right now that are defending

the box guys it's german soldiers who are part of the very high already in the joint task force it's a german initiative that we took up and we are going to build in you made 2 headquarters so nobody needs to to teach us about how important nato is and i tell you something. sometimes our friends and allies i don't want to name countries but sometimes friends said allies simply is humans that drum and would react in the way we do how how are we doing in this russian well we're not going to be provoked we've not cutting our dialogue and the networks that we have been building this is important for you so i'm i'm happy to take some blame there sometimes disappointment people sometimes have that strange ideas that it's weakness not to respond in kind but we are so fought for this keeping all of this together chairman

minister of state meals on and thank you for joining us on conflicts and thank you so much.

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for. living in the digital world shift. in 15 minutes on d w. to reach 77 percent of. police brutality in south africa brutal tactics are often used to impose laws and order how much trust the young people have in the justice system in big 1000000000 innocent lives hamas just plain enough and nice the 77 percent. to 30 minutes d w. i'm not laughing at the germans because sometimes down but they stand up and with a bit of anything thinking to jam a culture up. new don't seem to take those gram

a day oh you know it's all that they know i'm right so join me for me to jump on the gulf coast the break is over the news even kicking off the most such summer break this. if history. is history. like going south. the dutch probably came back normal. to sleep started to temora a team on g.w. . compatible. most muslim women choose between their faith and self-determination. i don't want anyone to tell me what the right or left headstock. women are striving to reform. away from traditional prejudices for. women to.

start september 24th on t.w. . play. play. play play. this is new news wise from berlin the u.s. supreme court justice ruth bader ginsburg has died just a day after the death of the liberal judge 87 the political wrangling has started over who gets to define purser sesar as president trump tweets the position should be filled with the late we'll take a look. also on the program. demonstrators in thailand to

begin a weekend of mass protests rallies have drawn tens of thousands calling for the prime.