investors made big promises but years later reality looks very different to a drinking shortage i. got a dream of black gold. starts december 4th on d. w. . america has voted by the outcome of the presidential election is posing more questions than answers above all who can reunite and reconcile this bitterly divided nation trump or biden can america's next leader heal the country or has the divide between the 2 americas become a base that will finally mark an ends to what was often known as the american century on to the points we ask trumbo by how divided is the united states.

thanks very much for joining us my guest today here in the studio are soraya sarhaddi nelson from k c w radio maine who says the results show how disconnected american voters are from the jhumpa and from politicians pollsters and journalists. also with us is mostly secret freelance journalist and currently a fellow at the american academy here in berlin he argues that a deadly pandemic months of racial upheaval and scandal after scandal have done little to diminish trump's popularity polls and a warm welcome to to matthew carney chief europe correspondent for politico who believes whoever wins in the end the result shows that neither candidate's own party has a clear convincing mandate. thank you all 3 for being here great stuff i'd like to

begin with you soraya america has voted to in walked one leading financial broadsheet kohl's a big us election that resolves little that seems like an option fed description of where we do you agree absolutely and it could become pounded depending on the congressional make up going to be very hard to get anything done and there are just so many varying narratives or varying agenda you know it's going to be very hard for the next president to be able to latch on to those especially his joe biden who has said that he's going to bring the country back together show what why are we still waiting for a result the heart of it is because it's an historic turnout i mean the numbers are just huge including the mail in ballots which of course have depending on the state have some time left before they can be counted so all of that when you have a system that is largely handled by volunteers in 50 different states with 50 different systems you know it takes time to count them up who's going to win. the

tough question. we as we speak now. biden has taken taken back michigan wisconsin. and appears poised to win. nevada and arizona he seems to have the clearest path towards $270.00 electoral college votes you talk about a clear path but it is a system that doesn't really appear to work for europeanize why is it so complicated. we have to look to the firm of the constitution for that i think but we have an electoral college system. that for whatever reason is weighted toward parts of the country that are less populous and so it often does happen that. the greater number of people vote for the candidate who has the fewer number of electoral college votes and we've seen that in previous elections i think i just

want to run the question by you why you know why is this is them still in place the electoral college nobody really understands it's in the postal vote isn't it is a sort of an opportunity to coal for old you know well i think a couple things 1st of all i would argue that the electoral college system does work and has worked for over 230 years it has happened in the past it happened in 2000 and it happened in 2016 that the candidate who won the most votes did not win the election but the point of the electoral college system is to have a regional balance in the country and it's important to remember that the united states is twice as big as the european union in terms of its geography it's a country of 300000000 people more than 300000000 people and they wanted to avoid a system the framers did and i think that they could sort of sense this was going to happen back then even that the country was going to expand westward and they wanted to avoid a situation where you had large population centers determining who was going to run the federal government it is it's

a federal system like germany and they tried to create this balance barack obama won 2 terms as president with the electoral college and with a majority of the votes and i think that if joe biden wins. today were in the coming days that this talk about doing away with the with the electoral college electoral college will probably dissipate i think that the big problem this time was because of the pandemic you have many more mail in ballots than we normally do that's one problem the other problem is that the president of the united states is aggressively so actually coming. any of these males this is so fascinating diagram but you know you're giving the impression that all is bright and rosy in the us a couple of days after an election where we're still ringing in our hands and saying where the heck is this going you know but i think it is normal in the american system and i think it's not normal to europeanize as as you've said it's not but the fact is that the responsibility for elections in united states lies with the 50 individual states and they are allowed to structure those elections in

the way that they want there are a surprise said mainly volunteers who are working here to count the votes it is actually i think it's very positive for democracy because it is a grassroots effort and when when people see as we saw this morning in my home state of arizona sort of groups of people out in front of the building where they're counting the votes waiting trump flags and you know they're carrying guns is a lot of people in arizona do anyway that you know tends to to worry a lot of european viewers i think american viewers and a very good news but i do think that it is also maybe a little bit part of the kind of circus atmosphere that often surrounds american elections well i don't agree about the electoral college i do think that that will remain a sticking point as somebody who is a california voter i mean i feel disenfranchised frankly by the system that is very antiquated that was created 2030 years ago and i think with the with what we've seen with this election with the mail in ballots the overwhelming you know the ability to do voting in different ways on that because the idea was but behind the

electoral college was to make sure that all states were represented but you can reach the voters now we're not talking about going by horseback to you know some polling station god knows where you know fighting all kinds of dangerous elements although there are still dangerous in some places nowadays when you want to vote but but i do think that they're going to i mean that there's going to be pressure to end this i really it's just a very strange system when you have a popular vote that goes for a candidate and then they still can't be elected because the electoral. college system is what prevails ok just one second i mean i think it is fair to say that the complications of the system will be what prompted president trump to come out and make his extraordinary speech claiming to be the winner of the poll let's listen to that cement talk about that a little bit. we want the law to be used in a proper manner so we'll be going to the u.s. supreme court we want all voting just. we don't want them to find any

ballots at 4 o'clock in the morning and add them to the list ok. the secretary said it. is a very sad moment to me this is a very sad moment and we will win this and we as far as i'm concerned we already have. most of your take on what was going on with the president and what was his message. what i hear from the president's words is someone who has path to victory has narrowed but who seems intent on rolling up his base to do god knows what to preserve. his voice in the public discourse as biden kind of and just closer closer to victory. there's a lot of talk among journalists and pundits about framing the narrative and a lot of people have been saying if they did see it sort of framing the narrative

of. what socratic narrative is not how it feels to you i mean the president comes out and says you know he almost himself declares himself would have since when does one guy choose the president of the united states we talk about challenges to democracy a kind of naked appeal to stop counting votes of american rich or voters does seem to be leaning to me towards. kind of authoritarian. kind of rule various things that he's done to to kind of stoke violence at the polls to to call out people who. to show up at the polls with with their arms on display appears to me to be something that is that is against totally against what we consider a working democracy. a presidential clue in the making some say regardless of whether donald trump you know wins another term in office or not is not cheap talk is that extreme talk i think it's

a little bit extreme i mean i do think that the united states has systems in place to prevent one man from sort of staying in the white house i mean even though we may see the the visual putting up of barriers around the white house i thought that was very symbolic i mean maybe it wasn't intended that way but maybe it was intended that way but i honestly don't think that i mean you know he donald trump talks the way donald trump talks that's part of his appeal you know he's seen as a leader by his followers and i think that's meant for them when he says that whether it even let's say for a moment he does want to stay and will stay no matter what i don't think those around him are going to allow that to happen because of the institutions including the supreme court well i agree and i think it's interesting that he actually referred to the supreme court in that clip so even he respects the authority of the supreme court here i don't believe at all that the supreme court is going to just rubber stamp whatever he wants it to do and it's not even clear what he would be asking them and what he would be challenging and again it's worth remembering that

this situation is not in his hands now it's in the hands of the states where these ballots are being counted it's their authority the federal government has no authority over the loses the count is he going to go i think he'll go absolutely he'll go and i think. it will be as easy as that because even people in his own party to leader of the republicans in the senate mitch mcconnell said of course we're going to have a normal transition of power just like we've had since the founding of the republic there's no reason to think that we wouldn't do that and i think that many republicans actually the sort of establishment republicans would be happy to see him go you know i mean they they they don't seem to be particularly happy with his with his style either and the other thing is that they've already got most of what they wanted they have control the supreme court now they have control more or less of the federal judiciary i think they would be more than happy to see the back of donald trump interesting let's try and capture the mood of the time by listening to

4 american voices. i'm here to support our president 2 i think. despite this fight at all. credible dobby i am very frightened for america and very right i love our democracy i love america and i know it has nothing to do with the party i just want somebody to look after an argument it's very important. trump is doing nothing for us so that he's going to have anything more in the control than what. trump does i followed voted for the greatest president in history donald j. sharon. the best presidents in history donald trump what saw his signal achievements. changing the way presidents talk i mean i don't know he's been he's been able to shake up transatlantic relations he's been able to to bring back some of the jobs that he

said he was going to bring up i mean i don't want to sound like a trump their friend but but he has definitely left a mark on not just america but the world and i don't think that's going away it's not being swept away into the trash bin of history as monica hesse wrote in the washington post but that's why people also vote for him because of these accomplishments which i think you know often get get lost in the interest of america and the accomplishments you had a plural of a plurality of accomplishments that i'm interested yeah i think this is you know exactly why his voters are coming back why his base really wants him to remain he cut taxes dramatically. he he also did away with a lot of regulations that was good for the business community he raised military spending dramatically these are all things that he promised to do in the campaign of 2016 he's taking a tough stance on trade with china now we have might all think that these are not good policies or many many people might think that it you know that these are are

are are wrong headed but this is exactly what he promised to do and he he followed through also promised to bring the deficit down to 0 and that hasn't gone so well because the country has a higher debt than it ever has mostly to feel comfortable with and it's a lot. it's difficult for me to hear those accomplishments and not think about. children of migrant families who were separated at the border and not think about. trump's kind of open acknowledgement of white nationalist groups and not think about the kind of voice of the voices of the voice of support that he gave to white nationalists and charlottesville. there's just so many things that i see as a point. really that make it difficult for me to to. to consider those policies as as we're supporting right yeah i'm more inclined to what moses said i mean i think

that yes while he did bring more spending to the military what he's done to nato for example and moving of troops and even like with afghanistan this forcing through of the peace talks that are not necessarily going anywhere i i think that's a real you know issue or problem and so i don't think that changes he's brought i mean you know with the tax cuts and everything that's fine he has done that he has made a change that i think we will feel for for many decades to come but i don't think that these weren't necessarily successes this is themselves as this is a subjective analysis and i'm just saying objectively speaking if you're trying to understand why so many people have voted for him why you know essentially half of america is still supporting donald trump it's because when they look at what he did and i forgot to mention the judges on the court this was a huge thing for his base that he managed to put 3 new supreme court justices into place who are going to you know take

a much different view of issues like abortion potentially and other things that are really core to the to the christian base i mean i'll give you this of the supreme court but i don't think it's objective analysis to say that afghanistan is falling apart or that the deal with iran the situation with iran is somehow better you know it's better i'm saying this is exactly what he promised to do he said that he wanted to get out of the iran dealers signaled that he was going to get out of the iran deal which he did and i'm not saying whether that was good or bad but he also said that he wanted to end the so-called endless wars he hasn't managed to do that but he has kind of voided an escalation in both iraq afghanistan and iraq and he hasn't started any new wars so i think it's worth remembering you know if people are wondering well especially in europe well how could anybody vote for this guy well look at his record look at what he promised to do and you might disagree. his policies and you might think that you know he did a lot of other bad things but if you look at what his base wanted and what he promised his base he delivered for them. german correspondent came out the other

day and said that he has done much more for peace in the middle east than barack obama for example well that's not a very you know high bar to be honest. i just want to talk about i just want somebody to look after america and to look after our democracy that was what woman said and those were just out of that report with those 4 statements and i'm just intrigued to know and we'll talk about that now is that somebody who could heal america joe biden let's watch this report 1st of all of them will talk about joe biden. joe biden was the youngest candidate ever elected to the u.s. senate in 2009 obama named him his vice president biden or a man with decades of political experience. as a presidential candidate he's presented himself as the antithesis of trump. we choose hope over fear unity over division science over fiction and yes truth over

a lie i'll be a president will stand with our allies and friends and make it clear to our adversaries the days of cozying up to dictators is over it's estimated that nearly another 210000 americans could lose their lives by the end of the year. and nothing no more. let's just set partisanship aside let's end the politics and follow the signs that job of a president to hear. most and can job by he'll america. does america need joe biden to heal it. this is the role he's being cast in yeah i look at the returns as as they exist right now with with joe biden with about 70000000 votes and donald trump about 68000000 votes and see a very stark divide. that is perhaps beyond what what what joe

biden can do to heal i mean i see joe biden as a palpable kind of figure who many kind of diverse groups could unite around but he does not strike me as someone who is. strident or or or visionary or even kind of truly progressive so i do i do wonder if he is often described as a man of great empathy. that that goes a long way coming from where we've been in the last 4 years someone who was able to kind of understand that other human beings have have feelings and needs and this is kind of not entirely driven by you know personal ambition. that will certainly make a difference but but still that divide seems so great. that i wonder i really wonder. if. if you can if you can manage it so i what are your personal insights on

joe biden tell us about. i mean you know for me as a woman you know as a. woman you know person of color i just it's another white man old white man telling us what to do it's hard not to feel that way you know even though i do think that he will restore i believe anyway based on what he's saying that he's going to restore some dignity to this office you know that there aren't going to be these harsh tones in terms of relationships i think relationship building with our allies is going to improve i think transatlantic relations will improve under him because he will go back to the format i think that people are used to but i don't know that he i don't think anyone can come in and solve anything in 4 years it's these problems are long in the making this is not just about donald trump or and what he brought and so he's got to talk so that he doesn't have a great record when it comes to the you know we have the achievements of donald trump when you look at joe biden 55 decades in u.s. politics and it's

a short list and you sound like donald trump i think he's actually achieved you know a lot and i mean but he is going to have to spend the next 4 years trying to undo some of the things i mean you know the united states not being in the pair at the climate paris i'm sorry the paris climate accords which yes which are the november 4th is when america officially pulled out it was sort of salt in the wound of the actions on the 3rd you know these are things that he has to sort of undo in it that takes time and he's not going to be able to do that if he becomes president because of a congress that's likely to be divided you talk about the fact that he's a man for the attempted it was about the both males of high age. is this going to be a one term presidency of joe biden does come in and the strategy is that he will then be followed by his vice president i think he always planned on it being a one term i mean that that is what he's indicated i think it may be

a one term presidency for democrats frankly it's just the bar is very high and as we've mentioned you know president obama had a difficult time during his 6 years when the senate was controlled by the republicans it doesn't seem likely that that would change now. you mention 2 words in one sentence biden and legitimacy and you seem to be said suggesting that he would not have legitimacy or fullish timoci in office i think you have legitimacy if he if he wins the election but he won't have a strong mandate which i think is what a lot of people were hoping for especially in the u.s. among the democrats they wanted a so-called blue wave that would give them control of both houses plus the presidency allowing for a very ambitious program of reforms i think it's what a lot of people in europe were also hoping for to kind of revive the transatlantic alliance to do away with all of these tensions over trade to do more on the environment and i think you know biden will reverse the decision to pull out of the

paris climate deal but beyond that it's going to be i think very difficult for him with a divided congress to make much headway and he's going to be under constant attack from republicans in the senate who can block a lot of you know what he's trying to do and he still has to deal with the fox news onslaught and all of these things so i think he will be very exposed on the other hand i think that he also just because of his personal demeanor he does bring a degree of normalcy back to the presidency and hopefully back to american politics that that has been missing and if that is his main achievement you know that's that's better better than nothing given what you were just saying about donald trump does that give you some comfort that vision of what joe biden come achieve in the years to come. become the next u.s. president you know i do take some comfort in that i think that that that even with a divided congress and the difficulty that he will have making policy changes that

that. president trump has been so disruptive to normalcy and international asians and domestic relations and really just the way people feel every day having him as their leader that i think that it will be it will be there will be a collective sigh of relief just the donald trump is not in office when you talk about donald trump being so disruptive can you are you as sure as matthew is for appears to be i think that this is somehow going to play out peacefully in the days and weeks to come. i know i hear the claims that he won't leave but it's difficult for me to imagine that kind of scenario i mean it just doesn't it doesn't feel realistic to me that he will not leave the office i can't imagine i mean is he just going to sit there and no one's it just doesn't so what yeah it doesn't really it doesn't really make sense to me so yeah i don't expect

a coup d'etat or whatever that we're going to have to go in with or the someone's going to go in with guns to bring about or whatever i think the other had laid out be an optimist about it it's a great example of democracy all of this is unfolding before our eyes were watching these counts come in live television you can see the people counting the votes this isn't happening in some backroom you know it's not belarus where they're throwing the ballots out the back window and that kind of thing and you know we'll have a result it's his it's his right as the candidate to challenge the result to ask for a recount in wisconsin and he is within that margin and you know if the courts have to decide in the end the courts will have to decide yes but you know that's the way it works in a democracy ok. fascinating insights incredible the dust hasn't settled on the u.s. election. quite yet it will let's wait and see what happens in the days to come thank you for joining us here on the program to the point to come back next time around until end bye bye and.

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this is due to the news live from berlin the us president blasts his own country's electoral process in his 1st address since election night u.s. president calls mail in voting quote corrupt. if you count the legal votes easily won and if you count the illegal votes they can try to steal. the election for almost. legal action to stop the ballot counting in key states i.