for the agencies criticize the to tell things not in the world starts to seem a good double, you know, you know, we have so few votes you wrote, you wouldn't want to clear poland's name. i don't care about the public perception . the e.u. is in crisis mode after poland and hungary buteux the blocks much needed new budget and coronavirus recovery fund over a new rule to make access conditional on upholding core e.u. values. my guest this week here at the berlin foreign policy forum is polish member of the e.u. parliament. richard the good go from the law and justice party. can the polish government afford to be at odds with the e.u. and its core about

race? are the good go welcome to conflict zone it morning. very good morning to you. my pleasure being here. the e.u. is said to be more than just a single market, but a union of values including rule of law, freedom of democracy, respect for human rights. poland signed up to those values when it voted to join the bloc, back in 2004. but now you're willing to veto the budget over an accountability, mechanism. so you signed up to the values when you joined the e.u., but you don't want to be accountable for breaching the oh, well, that's exactly like you, sad. first of all, veto is a legitimate instrument in the european law. lito has been

used nor has it. he threatens a view just many times before. there is nothing extraordinary in the fact that this of that government is not very happy with the solution of this. but i think that your e.u. partners would, would beg to differ on that mr. the good go. and i just like to highlight some of what they have been saying actually about your actions. e.u. leaders say that the mechanism that they have put forward, for example, is about providing reliability and trust in the budget. for example, the prime minister of the netherlands marketa says that the e.u. will not watered down the rule of law conditions. the e.u. is a community of values, an overwhelming majority. 25 of 27 e.u. member states. don't have a problem with that. why is poland the exception? oh, well, let me, let me say, if there is somebody who's acting against the rule of all law,

it is not the polish government. it is the european commission. it is the european parliament. all the majority, all the european council and the german presidency includes the proposed rule of law mechanism, is late violation of the cheat. it's a shame this violation. hold the cheaters. article 2 which specifies the values of the european union should be respected by duty. but do you oppose it, but do you not on

a legal basis or do you oppose it on a principle basis? because because ultimately let's have a look. for example, at the, at the, at the concerns that have been raised by the commission that they have been trying to take action on, on for years. for example, they've raised concerns about various aspects of your justice reform, which began when your party came to power. they have raised concerns for digital independence. they've launched multiple infringement proceedings in 2017. even launched article 7 proceedings against poland for clear risk of a serious breach of rule of law by poland. the independence of the court is of course, a cornerstone of rule of law. you're facing some really serious accusations, concerns that your party is taking over the body that selects judges appointing close allies to the constitutional tribunal attempting to purge the supreme court and regional courts. you don't want to face accountability over those accusations.

you wouldn't want to clear poland's name. that's not true. would you or say that's not a description of what has been 1000000 program. so it's not just a description of duty for multitudes of system. let me say that the cheat is specified only one way of accountability. that is that's all there is to it article so of the term clearing with the conflicts and the making. not elected bodies like doodle peon, commission, highly biased political to prosecute jocz and to predict executorship all over the independent state. this is simply, oh, absolutely,

just you keep focusing on the negatives about let's talk about the substance of what is happening and call it just how you want to finish the, the argument in 2014, when for the 1st time, there was this idea of the rule of law making news, legal services of european council rejected it, saying, but there is no legal basis whatsoever. it's in conflict with article firey, the principle of the conferral that you can find all of the treaty of european union. that is, the european commission and all european institutions have only those competences know the word to become the accomplishment of quantum explicitly and to monitoring the judiciary system is not the competence of the european. so you don't want anyone who tells pay attention research writers. you don't know,

it seems you don't want anyone to pay attention to what is going on in poland, but i'd just like to highlight this one example for you and get your response to it . because in your government, establish a disciplinary chamber which has the power to punish judges of our court rulings. the judges have been appointed by your party's leadership. you have in a landmark ruling just this past spring by the european court of justice. they criticize this body heavily. they have said that it is not an independent court, ordered its suspension. furthermore, your country has passed what has become known as a muzzled law, which can be used to reprimand judges who call into question how fellow judges were appointed. in other words, you ordered to show reforms. explain to me how disciplining or throwing out judges critical of your reforms, creates an independent judiciary in the country. i think would

you say this is the best basis of why we do not want this mechanism to go into a fair. it's not only that, it's a violation of the rule of law, but it's nice on lines or mis information of disinformation disciplinarian. this is not, this is judges will do. who reads? that is not what is, that is not what an independent polish judges association has said. that is not what freedom house has said. they said dozens of judges are facing possible penalties on often frivolous grounds. the judges association says, disciplinary action so close after prosecutors and judges criticize questioned or appear to negatively comment on the controversial justice reforms that even cited

somebody who was, who was reprimanded for wearing a t. shirt, which simply said an inscription constitution. how is that democratic? this is, this is all change is why you won't read all those negative opinions. i conclude. so you positive looking here is just show me the text or there's piece of legislation. emily, the number of the article, how to grow up. when it says explicitly there, the judges will be punished or may be punished for their rulings. it's more their, the discipline that the chamber is occupied with the cases of are in charge stealing something the from the supermarket or the judge that was spoiled junk driving. so that's misinformation of the world. you use information. number 2

is the european court of justice. i'm setting aside the trouble on where the european court of justice is entitle to deal with something that is not its competence, but those are different. matter did not suspend the discipline of the chamber. it wasn't suspended the or put into the measures to be precise. was just one small thing related to the the question that was being asked, disciplinary actions unities judges. you say that? yes it is. that it's an opinion i got community i'd like to highlight. it's also the public perception in your country that the independent a couple and i'm sorry, i don't think it's a area that you don't care about the public. you're not a democrat, i don't care. i don't care about a public perception because the public, they say that we're dense new has. it is reforms whether it's based on i think

you're part of a mystique. the question, once again, their confidence in the judicial system hasn't was a priest by 11 percentage points since you came into power since you did it implemented is or form such a dramatic i've heard of no, the faintest idea what to do with the data from i have a different data the the confidence in the judiciary system. i wouldn't have been all times to know. it's why we decided to make so so 1st of all you say this, this is our problem. this is internal problem of problem. i've not interest here in with the judiciary system in germany. there is a lot of what i don't like the judicial system in germany, but that's not my problem. we're talking about poland and the message that i seem to be getting from you is that you believe that your courts are absolutely and

completely independent. so then let me put it to you and ask you, why would the head of law and justice say the following? he said, quote, the reforms to the constitutional court were needed to ensure there were no legal blocks on government policies aimed at creating a fairer, a condom. he basically admitted your party does not want the courts to get in the way of what it wants. in other words, eliminated edition areas, check law and justice power. well, i would not comment on this. i would want you to tell me if there is anything in the system actually existing that some independence of judgments there cannot be dismissed. they can hope to be accountable for the ruling they are the responsible political

dependence. i can see and the reasons i know that the whole problem with the constitutional stuff working with the previous government, you don't know, the government is for the worse and of 5 vacancies. in the design, so they have the majority of the judges who money to block the policy of the next government. then most even be funny is that you look let's concentrate on the situation right now. and i actually, i'd like to move on to one other very important pillar of democracy, and that is a free press providing an essential check on power. in fact, days after the election in july, in your country, a new media strategy of quote republic is

a sion limiting foreign investors and polish media and concentration limiting the number of media outlets that any one group can own was announced. its reporters without borders says the real goal is to influence the editorial policies of the media. why should anyone believe that this isn't just an attempt by your party to tighten its grip the media into the most diverse in china? so this is the, there is more to reality television media. then in, from, in the, in germany invasion in most of this comes from the media or of one teenager in poland. that is why picture that's point number one. point number 2 is that in some 80 percent of the media companies don't

come to see europe, which if that is true, look at what happens when your government gets involved in the media. for example, the public media in 2015, your party, it passed legislation that allows the government to appoint or dismiss the executives in charge of public t.v. . and the radio broadcaster the 0 s. c.e. has said now it fails to insure editorial independence. it said that the public broadcaster, for example, in the most recent election, failed in its legal duty to provide balanced and impartial coverage. rather, it serves as a campaign tool for the incumbents. critics say the public media has become a mouthpiece of your government. is that what the country now has to look forward to under really pull in ization of the private media. there is as much truth in

it as it was a budget comment on the judicial system was all based on disinformation. it's based on it's based on data from the o. s. c, e. it is based on data from reporters without borders. not the public media from the very beginning that is from $98.00 to $85.00, the public radio was rather supportive of the government's whatever the governments were there was whether there would be the communist or liberals all over. so there is nothing strange about it. so the public media in most european countries is out public media, also city supportive of the cover, which does not mean they are not objective or they are not in portion. if you look

at the media, poland, about the sense of the me, entire government, and 30 percent of supply. and by that you mean independent that for example, even blair, but that is regarded as too much in the object of a vicious attack. do you want poland to become like runs for example, when there is only one opinion and all me again mr. the good go where we're talking about is all in here and no, no, we are talking about judo. i would like to move on to and i miss you. let's talk about a domestic issue. women's reproductive rights. your country has seen its biggest protests in recent years. hundreds of thousands of people on the streets after the constitutional tribunal said, it would outlaw abortions in cases of severe fetal abnormalities. it's come under fire, not only because of its substance,

but also because of the way that it was reached. your party pushed this measure through or tried to push this mother measure through the parliament years ago, but it was very unpopular. so now it's going through the courts. you've come under fire for a lack of a democratic conversation on the issue. did you think that you could just let this slip through? but this is the, the in charge of the national matter of moral issues. are not the question of european legislation that's, let's not go around them get, let's, let's agree on that. you may dislike to, but it's not your business. 1st of all, i do not know what women's rights are. you could not find a women's rights in the universe, a declaration of human rights. that is nothing about, well, women's rights are our human rights laws are going to show, are they not of human? we've been strikes are not india and convention of human us women's rights are not

in the charter of fundamental rights. can you show a signal that there is something about women's rights in these 3 basic documents? let's bring it back to what's, what's happening there because they're just not, it is nothing new. there was nothing to do mean. so i saw so i do not know exactly what it is. i went through voc, abortion are bullshit. abortion is not a question of the european or international law, but i'm talking about the democratic process in your country on this issue. approval for your government is dropping dramatically. as we mentioned protesters on the streets, just government has not published the ruling, which would bring him back in a worse. and that's a calling. according to polling data from cantor, in the past couple of weeks, the government appears to be stronger when it comes to implementing the decision.

it was if using a signal you backtrack to see if your now, if you, if your resistance to accept information. and you really cannot talk with you because it makes no sense. my point was that even if you dislike this law, it's not your problem is not your problem and it's not a legal problem. it's a moral problem. the verdict was announced by the constitutional cardinal. i thought the ruling of the constitution tigerman should be to respect it, but the problem with not so reading books can be accepted to know who things must not be yourself. so let's be consistent, mr. the of congress, of the constitutional tribunal, to be respected more. how about dogs told me that something can be a scandal, or you want to see the argument?

the disputes, the reasoning behind the legal argument. there too just refutes the reasoning behind this ruling. let me tell you there the previous presidents of the comes to show you more agreed with this ruling because there really couldn't be a difference. mr. look, i want to get to see you soon. additional good in again, beardless. we're talking about the democratic process as you know, and i want to get to one large issue of all we have to go do your, of your congress should go bananas, but they cannot change it. this is holder's, with the polish law, polish constitution, or any other mr. goodbar temporary. mr. google, how about the rights of people also in their country? a president do it or has called l. g. b, t, movement and ideology. more dangerous than communism of the election. who signed a family charter of proposals including pledges to prevent

a gay couples from marrying or adopting children? and to ban teaching about l g b t issues and score the human rights of l. d. b t. people in poland? do they not matter? well, it's the same story over and over again. the conversation is absolutely nonsense because you are with your food only going to be all of those hot rules or 2 cliches. and i would have to, well, how about how about the words of, of politicians that are in your law and justice party. for example, you're now education minister said on the campaign trail, stop listening to this idiocy about human rights or equality these people. and by these people, the new l.g. beauty, people are not equal to normal. people who said, that's ok. do you know, you know, it's, it's,

it's old of the culprits. it was first of all, can you give me a single example of a homosexual person who has been persecuted or discriminated against because he's homosexual, or she's a homosexual? well, you have about a single example, mr. goodnow, you have about 100 towns in the region across, across poland, early a 3rd of the country that have passed resolutions declaring them free of l. g p t. ideology there clashing with the e.u. because you have the or so the funded line saying l d b t free zones are soo manatee free zone. they have no place in our union. is it your government's duty to stop and ensure the safety of all of its citizens, including minorities isn't? isn't that what fundamental values are for? this is becoming more and more hopeless. we've been really thereto several times. there are no between 3 zones in poland. those european parliament has

passed dozens of resolution against the free zones in poland. osu left from the lion, o.g.t.t. free zones in poland. read my lips, there are no o.g.t.t. free zones in poland. how can i? why is it so difficult for you guys to accept the simple fact? what is the problem? the problem is, the only thing that happened was that one of the 8 should be d. . activists took pictures, which he sort of made up right and distributed all around. mr. the good go international media, you could see this is edgy beauty for of this is a good hour. he explained. it was an artistic performance. this is a look at exactly what you are accusing me and my government because of this art

homans briefly before we go, i'd like to ask you. we've addressed protests on the streets. we've talked about how poland is at odds with the e.u. over values and, and just briefly tell us, are you concerned that your government is putting poland on the path? so isolation, i'm concerned about the european union, which is suffering from a serious disease. probably a deadly disease which is today, all of the majority and the e.u. has becoming more and more close and it took to run your coal in told utterance systemic it is value leeching. it's the value and it's only the cheaters and sort of trying to impose some kind of new despotism and we let it go. we have to leave it there. richard,

the good girl. thank you for joining us on complex. thank you again. the end of the end

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