passion, drama, competition, rivalry, marketing numbers, atmospheres powered by time and tradition. love, money, millionaires, fans and friends all over. no, no, we are 2 people that you wrote. you wouldn't want to clear poland's name. i don't care about the public perception. the e.u. is in crisis mode after poland and hungary vetoed the blocks, much needed new budget, and coronavirus recovery fund over a new rule to make access conditional on upholding core e.u. values. my guest this week here at the berlin foreign policy forum is polish member of the e.u. parliament. richard the good go from the law and justice party. and the polish government afford to be at odds with the e.u. and its core about

race. are the good go welcome to conflict zone. good morning, very good morning to you. my pleasure being here. the e.u. is said to be more than just a single market, but a union of values including rule of law, freedom of democracy, a respect for human rights. poland signed up to those values when it voted to join the bloc, back in 2004. but now you're willing to veto the budget over an accountability, mechanism. so you sign up to the values when you join the e.u., but you don't want to be accountable for breaching them. oh, well, that's exactly like you, sad. first of all, the church is a legitimate instrument in the european law. lito has been

used nor has it. he threatens to be used when it comes before. there is nothing extraordinary in the fact that this of that government is not very happy with the solution that is, but i think that your e.u. partners would, would beg to differ on that mr. the good go. and i just like to highlight some of what they have been saying actually about your actions. e.u. leaders say that the mechanism that they have put forward, for example, is about providing reliability and trust in the budget. for example, the prime minister of the netherlands, marketa says that the e.u. will not watered down the rule of law conditions. the e.u. is a community of values. an overwhelming majority. 25 of 27 e.u. member states. don't have a problem with that. why is poland? the exception not well, let me, let me say if there is somebody who's acting against the rule

of all law, it is not the polish government. it is the european commission. it is the european parliament. all the majority, all the european council, and that you have a presidency, including the proposed rule of law mechanism. violation of the cheat. it's a shame violation. hold the cheaters. article 2, which specifies the values of the european union, should be respected by due to be in union. but do you oppose it? but do you oppose it not on a legal basis?

or do you oppose it on a principles basis? because because ultimately, let's have a look, for example, at the, at the, at the concerns that have been raised by the commission that they have been trying to take action on, on for years. for example, they've raised concerns about various aspects of your justice reform, which began when your party came to power. they have raised concerns for judicial independence. they've launched multiple infringement proceedings in 2017. even launched article 7 proceedings against poland. for clear risk of a serious breach of rule of law by poland. the independence of the court is of course, a cornerstone of rule of law. you're facing some really serious accusations, concerns that your party is taking over the body that selects judges appointed close allies to the constitutional tribunal attempting to purge the supreme court and regional courts. you don't want to face accountability over those accusations,

you wouldn't want to clear poland's name. that's not true. would you or say, that's not a description of what has me actually in program. so it's not just your description all due to formal judicial system. let me say that the cheat is specified only one way or accountability. that is and that's all there is to it article so of the term clearing with the conflicts and making, not elected bodies like doodle paean, commission, highly biased politically to prosecute jocz. and to really exit q ship all over the independent state. this is simply, i want to really just, you keep focusing on the negatives about,

let's talk about the substance of what is happening and call it just i want to finish the argument in 2014. when for the 1st time, there was this idea of the rule of law american is legal services of european council rejected it saying, but there is no legal basis whatsoever. it's in conflict with article 5, the principle of the conferral of the articles of the treaty of european union. that is the european commission and all european institutions have only those competences know the words to become that were confirmed of quantum explicitly. and the monitoring of the judiciary system is not the competence of the european. so you don't want anyone tells pay attention research writers. you don't know,

it seems you don't want anyone to pay attention to what is going on in poland, but i'd just like to highlight this one example for you and get your response to it . because in your government established a disciplinary chamber which has the power to punish judges over court rulings, the judges have been appointed by your party's leadership. you have in a landmark ruling just this past spring by the european court of justice. they criticize this body heavily. they have said that this is not an independent court. they've ordered its suspension. furthermore, your country has passed what has become known as a muzzled law, which can be used to reprimand judges who call into question how fellow judges were appointed. in other words, your judicial reforms explain to me how disciplining or throwing out judges critical of your reforms, creates an independent judiciary in the country. i think would

you say this is the best basis all while we do not want this mechanism to go into a flare. it's not only that, it's a violation of the rule of law, but it's nice on lines or misinformation of disinformation disciplinarian change. this is not, this is your job just will do dream. that is not what it is. that is not what any independent polish judges association has said, that is not what freedom house has said. they said dozens of judges are facing possible penalties on often frivolous grounds. the judges association says, disciplinary action so close after prosecutors and judges criticize questioned or appear to negatively comment on the controversial justice reforms that even cited

somebody who was, who was reprimanded for wearing a t. shirt, which simply said an inscription constitution. how is that democratic? this is, this is all charges. why you won't read all those negative opinions. i conclude. so you prosecuting yours. just show me the text or there's piece of legislation the number of the article, how to grow up. when it says explicitly, there are the judges will be punished or may be punished for their rulings. it's law there, the discipline to change is occupied with decreases of charge stealing something the from the supermarket, or the judge that was spoiled drunk driving. so that's the misinformation of the world you use. information number 2 is the european court of

justice. i'm setting aside the problem where the european court of justice is entitle to deal with something that is not its competence, but those are good from the matter. did not suspended the disciplinary chamber, it wasn't suspended the or put into the measures to be precise. all was just one small thing related to the the question that was being asked. disciplinary action you ladies judges, you say that yes it is. that it's an opinion but chris, i got community, i'd like to highlight. it's also the public perception in your country that the independent a couple. i said sorry, i don't criticise area. you don't care about the public. you're not a democrat. i ducked. i don't care about the public perception because the public, they say that that sense knew had it is reforms whether it's based on your pardon.

i think the question was again, their confidence in the judicial system has of course, creased by 11 percentage points. since you came into power since you started implementing ice reform, so it's traumatic. are you going to have the faintest idea about the doing what they're going to tell you from? i have a different date. the the, the confidence in the judiciary system. i wouldn't have been all times to know that's why we decided to make so so 1st of all, let me say this, this is our problem. this is a determined problem of problem. i've not interfering with the judiciary system in german. there is a lot of what i don't like in judicial the system injured, but that's not my problem. we're talking about poland and the message that i seem to be getting from you is that you believe that your courts are absolutely and

completely independent. so then let me put it to you and ask you, why would the head of law and justice say the following? he said quote, the reforms to the constitutional court were needed to ensure. there were no legal blocks on government policies aimed at creating a fair or a con, and he basically admitted your party does not want the courts to get in the way of what it wants. in other words, eliminated edition areas, check on law and justice power. well, i would not comment on this. i want you to tell me if there is anything in the system actually existing, but some words independence of charges, they cannot be dismissed. they can go to be comfortable for the ruling. they have the responsible political

dependence. i can see and the reasons i know that the whole problem with the constitution started with the previous government, you don't know, the government is for the worse and pointed of 5, vacancies in the design. so they had the majority of the judges who money below the policy of the next governor daniels. you have the feeling is that you are let's concentrate on the situation right now. and i actually, i'd like to move on to one other very important pillar of democracy, and that is a free press providing an essential check on power. in fact, days after the election in july, in your country, a new media strategy of quote republicans,

a sion limiting foreign investors and polish media and concentration limiting the number of media outlets that any one group can own. was announced. reporters without borders says the real goal is to influence the editorial policies of the media. why should anyone believe that this isn't just an attempt by your party to tighten the screw? the media in poland. the most diverse inside a new sense of the, there is more to the already produce media in from, in the, in germany, in belgium. in most of this comes from the media, one scene in poland. that is why pictures of the that's point number one of the 2 in. then in some 80 percent of the media is foreign companies. we don't

come to see europe, which if that is true, look at what happens when your government gets involved in the media. for example, the public media in 2015, your party of pass legislation that allows the government to appoint or dismiss the executives in charge of public t.v. . and the radio broadcaster the o.s.c. e has said now it fails to insure editorial independence. it said that the public broadcaster, for example, in the most recent election, failed in its legal duty to provide balanced and impartial coverage. rather, it serves as a campaign tool for the incumbents. critics say the public media has become a mouthpiece of your government. is that what the country now has to look forward to under repolish as

a nation of the private media. there is as much truth in it as it was about your comment on the judicial system was all based on disinformation. it's based on it's based on data from the o. s. c, e. it is based on data from reporters without borders. look to the public media from the very beginning that is 98. 89. the public radio was rather supportive of the government. whatever the governments were there was whether there were people in the common, her stall, liberals all over. so there is nothing strange about it. the public media in most european countries use out public media also suggest supportive of the coverage, which does not mean that they are not objective or they are not in portion. if you

look at the media holder about certain the sense of the me, entire government and 30 percent of supply. and by that you mean independent, for example, even the very but that is regarded as too much is in the object of a vicious attack. do you want poland to become like runs, for example, when there is only one opinion and all again mr. the good go where we're talking about you voluntarily? no, no, we're talking about judo. i would like to move on to and i miss you. let's talk about a domestic issue, women's reproductive rights. your country has seen its biggest protests in recent years. hundreds of thousands of people on the streets after the constitutional tribunal said, it would outlaw abortions in cases of severe fetal abnormalities. it's come under fire, not only because of its substance,

but also because of the way that it was reached. your party pushed this measure through or tried to push this mother measures through the parliament years ago. but it was very unpopular. so now it's going through the courts. you've come under fire for a lack of a democratic conversation on the issue. did you think that you could just let this slip through? but this is the in charge of the national matter of moral issues. are not the question of european legislation that's let's not go out and get let's, let's agree on that. you may dislike too, but it's not your business. 1st of all, i do not know what women's rights are. you could not find a women's rights in the universal declaration of human rights that it's nothing about well, women's rights are our human rights laws are going to so far. they're not all here . we've been strikes are not india cured convention of humor,

not swimming. the rights are not in the charter of fundamental rights. can you show a signal that there is something about women's rights in these 3 basic documents? let's bring it back to what's, what's happening there? because of that is not, it is nothing there now is nothing to do inside i saw so i do not know exactly what it is. i went through vod abortion bullshit. abortion is not a question of the european or international law, but i'm talking about in this democratic process in your country on this issue. approval for your government is dropping dramatically. as we mentioned, protesters on the streets just government has not published the ruling, which would bring him back in a worse that's a calling according to polling data from cancer. in the past couple of weeks, the government appears to be stalling when it comes to implementing the decision i

made. it was if you disagree not only backtrack, this is your. now if you, if your resistance to accept information and you really can't hold, talk with you because it makes no sense. my point was that even if you dislike this law, it's not your problem is not your problem. and it's not a legal problem. it's because of all of problems. the verdict was announced by the constitutional code. you know, i thought the ruling of the constitution should be to respect it, but not some rulings can be accepted now, who thinks must not be yourself. so let's be consistent mr. the have congress of the constitutional tribunal to be respected hawks. how about don't read another scandal or you want to see the argument. so the

reasoning behind the legal argument there too just refutes the reasoning behind this ruling. let me tell you, they have the previous presidents of the cons tribunal. well, russia agreed with dissolving because the voting couldn't be different. mr. the book i want to get into this should look good in again, be honest, we're talking about the democratic process as you know, and i want to get to one more issue of when we have to go to europe. you're probably should go bananas. but they cannot change this holders with the polish law or the polish constitution or any other. mr. goodbar be temporary. mr. google, how about the rights of the l.g.p.l.? people also in their country? a president do it or has called l g b t, movement and ideology? more dangerous than communism of the election, who signed a family charter of proposals including pledges to prevent

a gay couples from marrying or adopting children? and to ban teaching about l. g. b t issues and score the human rights of l. d. b t . people in poland, do they not matter? well, it's the same story over and over again. the conversation is absolutely no, so this because you're out with your food already going to be all of those through or 2 or 3 shows. and i would have to look up what, how about how about the words of, of politicians that are in your law and justice party. for example, you're now education minister said on the campaign trail, stop listening to this idiocy about human rights or equality. these people and by, these people, the l.g.b. t., people are not equal to normal people who said it, that's sorry. he did it. you don't know. you know, it's, it's,

it's out of the complex. it was first of all, can you give me a single example of a homosexual person who has been persecuted or discriminated against because he is homosexual, or she's a homosexual? well, you have about a single example, mr. goodnow, you have about 100 towns in the region across, across poland, early a 3rd of the country that have passed resolutions declaring them free of l. d. p t . ideology there clashing with the e.u. because you have the or so the funded line saying l d b t free zones are human and of the free zone. they have no place in our union. is it your government's duty to stop and ensure the safety of all of its citizens, including minorities isn't? isn't that what fundamental values are for? this is becoming more and more hopeless. we didn't agree to rate several times. there are no between 3 zones in poland's. european parliament has

passed dozens of resolution against the duty free zones in poland. ocilla from them lying in. g, b, t 3 zones in poland. read my lips, there are no g, b, t free zones in poland. how can i what is it so difficult for you guys to accept the simple fact? what is the problem? the problem is, the only thing that happened was that one of the aged between activists took pictures, which he sort of made up. right, and distributed all around mr. the good go to national media. you could see this is an age of beauty for of 0. so the good hour, he explained it was an artistic performance. this is a good example. you are accusing me and my government because of this art homans

briefly before we go, i'd like to ask you. we've addressed protests on the streets. we've talked about how poland is at odds with the e.u. over values and, and just briefly tell us, are you concerned that your government is putting poland on the path? so isolation, i'm concerned about their european union, which is suffering from a serious disease. probably a deadly disease which is called children of the of the majority is becoming more and more close to, to run you go in told utterance systemic you live, violates it, it's the value. and it's only the cheated and sort of trying to impose some kind of new despotism and we let it go. we have to leave it there.

richard the good go. thank you for joining us on conflicts on thank you. hello ed. thanks to him.

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