w. . passion a drama competition rivalry marketing numbers atmosphere powered by attack and tradition love money. fans transplant stamps and fans all. on you tube. you have 10000000 e.u. citizens living on the earth or a tarion rule we cannot tolerate democracies in europe yet we have not crawlers only hungary poland. the insurrection in washington has focused attention on the apparent fragility of democracy in the us but how strong is democracy in europe my guest this week from germany is going to critique down an m.p. from angela merkel seaview party and chair of the e.u. affairs committee in the federal parliament why the big gap between the e's rhetoric about rights and rule of law and the dismal reality in parts of the union

. going to create a problem welcome to comfort zone. when borland took over the rotating e.u. presidency it's set itself the tasco of protecting fundamental values and rights in the european union and i want to look 1st at whether it met that objective in any way at all according to human rights groups you have now almost 10000000 citizens living under or thora tarion rule in hungary aren't you ashamed of the. well i am not totally satisfied with the results to be very honest anyway we are able to achieve the 1st step to come that the financial aid from the budget

of the euro e.u. learned to the respect of the rule of law wasn't quite my gma wasn't my question about hungary you have 10000000 e.u. citizens living under our thora tarion rule and you have the commission's vice president e.u. commission vice president vera 0 of are when so far as to call hungary a sick democracy how many sick democracies can you tolerate in the european union these days. we can now tolerate a sick democracy is in your opinion but you but you do not know one second please let me choose my sentence because we have a lot of problems only in hungary but also in poland was unmarked when a journalist asked kill and we had to surf there are a t.v. not really. the case i think it is necessary to make more pressure on the states and with the budget we have really and truly not in our am

and so i am satisfied then we get the 1st step but i think also it is not and will be not enough in the future it should be normal to respect the rule of law european union yes well they've gone a long way from what you regard as normal that this tool that you're talking about is a mechanism which germany proposed that looks as though the e.u. would make payments to member countries conditional on their respect for the rule of law the problem for several countries was that it was just too soft in fact it was all hype wasn't it when you looked at the fine print of the proposal it turned out this mechanism could only be used if the rule of law if the violations of rule of law affected or seriously rest affecting the sound financial management of the e.u. so in other words it was all about money and that wasn't enough for a lot of countries was it i think money is a very good tool to make pressure on states because they've done and saw it finally

it was necessary to find a compromise because i think you followed the bait how difficult it was to get a solution concerning the mutual financial program and all they recover a funk which allows now to rebuild a colony of the concerts saved due to the color of the corona riots but anyway now we have not only mechanist. the combination with the financial aid. also article said. finally we have the. european union and it's up to them not to decide if there are allegations or a way i think it is worthwhile to have another piece combination. changed but most agree prime your article 7 process is against poland hungary have gone absolutely nowhere and the looks as though none of this is going to result in any sustained

that action whatsoever and this latest mechanism also ended in failure because both hungary and poland announced that if you went ahead with it and they would veto the latest stimulus package straight unashamed blackmail wasn't it and you gave in to it. no they don't share his opinion because her relief of always respected decisions of the like karl and this is of on me personally the red blood the red line means to respect the decisions of the high court so that's the size of hunger and in the past so now they will also do their we have more problems over and saw the minute i had asked the more to respect he said decisions and the now we have once again this is known as the respect rule or otherwise 'd we can lock them up and this is the one consequence one

will slowly. feel. concerns it's i have to take issue with you when you say that you know this mechanism survived intact what what you did was in fact climb down but when brokered a deal that will have the effect of delaying for months even years the use of this procedure and then only after the european court of justice has ruled on it and the hungry in poland have had the chance to challenge it who knows how long that's going to take so this has been kicked indefinitely into the future in other words nothing will happen will it. i don't think so because the decision which will be taken by the european coffee wooll also have any impact from the very beginning and not only for the future means when the decision will be taken by the european car so this was a very high level in atlanta and so once again. and

really glad that we have knowledge of this combination between budget and respect for a lot of which force is not the case in the us let's see how well it works it set a precedent that you will climb down you will climb down every time there is a challenge and every time states say we're going to blackmail you and hold up your stimulus package or your budget i think it was the right view one step in the right direction but it's if it's a trip not only i think it should be very clear at the state withdrawing european union should respect the rule of law so that's also the reason why the article sound procedure is only regulating with a few sentences and the treaty takes also recip rights it is on the basic one of the basic otic a few who are going article 50 out of the $58.00 that only

a few census why because we thought it will never happen one state will leave the european union that nation wide these rules are very cool or if you want the treaty so it was our duty it was our challenge now to better not mechanisms for things which are not really understanding and when as a knowledge is our understanding i get a problem in arguing to them to the candidate states so in the states who want to. john you were a union because i tell them well if you want to join your union you have to respect democracy you have to respect the rule of law and the cetera et cetera so but also they have to respect the rule of law one e.u. officials said after this latest you call it compromise i call it the climb down said the rule of law a mechanism is like the stability pact for the east it will never be enforced and

will only create political resentment on all sides that's the view of some people within the you and while this mechanism does realize that they are ok and they have the right of this are for his opinion on what happened there isn't that the opinion is based on not up and they're just looking at what happened and really astonished that they judge other mechanisms which now starts were we have not to ourselves are reversed but i think that's really funny. to calm down a mechanism which ball now and let's hope so it's not. it's nobody can really tell that it will not occur and i don't see so well were let's see in the future and it will not be the case then i'm really sure there will be the pressure to allow her to achieve it in the right sense so satisfied and once again that we

got this mechanism. and not let us alcohol even worse well yeah i would say than that you are easily satisfied with the creek because human rights organizations for instance human rights watch are far from satisfied they said last month the last weeks have shown that leaders who violate human rights have no shame in bullying and blackmailing the whole european union to shield themselves from any consequences for their actions you set a dangerous precedent here where you allow lucy to take place well i don't want to interrupt you but we have to be very carefully we are speaking about the man states of the european. the union and everybody knows how important it is to the respect rule of law and we are not talking about the state from another car in the world with adults all regime without school governance and so are so you know what you are talking you are talking about european union states that disrespect

the rule of the land we have to make a difference we are not speeding up the state of central america. we are all human rights are violated every day mr speaker let me let me just make a point here let me just let me just like i'm going to and our european union that's not all. to be cautious of her and then we have also to really get the reaction last and i think it was part of the rhetoric all the presidency because he was not old and i can is most of it was also to come to a result in the local stations the finances of your finances the creek about the let me let me let me let me just raise an issue here you say you're not talking about african states you're talking about members of the european union you're talking about in the case of hungary at least a leader who effectively gave himself absolute power under cover of the pandemic

who's been politicizing the courts who's decimated independent media who's been chipping away at academic freedom these are not things they signed up to do when they joined the european union so unless there are mechanisms and so far no mechanisms have persuaded the leadership in hungary to change their proper course of policy things are going to change and to go back to my original question at the top of the interview what have you managed to do to ensure rights for those 10000000 hungary and who live according to the human rights organizations under or thora tarion rule in the middle of the european union you seem to find that acceptable they don't. well once again i think it is worthwhile to make a difference also in hungary we have a government 1st which is elected only to morrow to. proceed we are. always criticised when we have not asked fair conditions for the media us no that's

the point it is not the case that no one can tell who is free again and. that's my mind were it states necessary to make a difference and once again we want to have additional and i want that. can present itself on an economy basic which is just surer and which will not be violated by the state so i think it is not only black and only white so all we have differences and. i think the point when we are adopted when european commission is still opinion that the treaty is our. then it's the duty of the commission to ask for a decision of the european car and this was a done and hunger

a respected decision of your nose to prepare you talk about the european commission deciding whether a state is in line with its rule of law values or not look a bug area 14 years in the european union still getting away with some of the worst practices of a communist era even though it's been under special monitoring by the e.u. how does that happen. well at 1st i don't share a doggy and it has crossed the colonist. time i don't share really not been coming this time people suffered under the drug. companies risky mother come hysteria it was. violating human rights everyday he noted microstrip not all of us well i criticise a case of parking are enough if. the system of law concerning.

to all. cases of correction we have cases which take 10 or 12 years in. truth is. in a subtle and acceptable long time so there is has also something to do with a rule off lot less one point which i criticise very very not miss that mr chris brown you have massive government corruption this according to independent n.g.o.s you have mafia capture you have democratic backsliding a politically manipulated and almost dysfunctional just system says them is that good so far but what how is that in any way in line to any degree with the pledges that bug area made 14 years ago and yet in 2019 a spokesman for the commission reported that bug area had made sufficient progress

to meet its commitments and accession to the e.u. that cannot be right so why this blind guy being turned towards bug area i visited by a carrier off and. yesterday integrated in the european union and also the procedures of the european union that makes a difference mr creek. found the ngos and various garda government seem to have seen more problems in bulgaria than the e.u. commission the 29000 human rights report from the us state department said officials in all branches of government in bulgaria reportedly engaged in corrupt practices with impunity bribery conflict of interest elaborate embezzlement schemes on top of that you have from the un committee against torture of finding that mental institutions are forcibly administering intrusive and irreversible psychiatric treatment on their patients and that torture has become commonplace in

that country how do those values fit in with the modern e.u. idea of what countries should be doing what they said they'd live up to and haven't . i know this totally right that it is not acceptable that we have circumstances like that mentioned once but. let me say it's perhaps not a complete picture of the area because the sure things have to be developed in the right direction but also other earlier had cheated us. nowhere near done. today cannot be compared with at times 203040 years ago so in all these countries have to be developed and they have they are developing and this occurs we have the european commission which is serving the developments and sure that there is

also a lot of pressure from the european commission to the states and also from the other member states and independent foundations which we have also an area like on a up in our faces it is. also n.g.o.s they show another picture but also they created they criticize a lot. especially in the fight against corruption they are at the gate and has the strong arm of the government and if the government is not able to hook to make the force and especially progresses then it has to show consequences other european union yeah but then there are any consequences bugg area has had 14 years in the european union and it is still torturing people on a regular basis so clearly whatever measures the e.u. is applying aren't having the desired effect are they. i think that's not the right

. that that's not the right picture because people can live free in a buggy area and. we have to proceed and of this is the case but what i'm asking for is more engaged fight against corruption and this is cannot be tolerated because corruption is violating the poorest of the poorest people whine because they cannot join to start full competition to pay for things which are really not at its start it's not only it's not only to do with the riches in the state but it starts also daily like in hospitals it's cool when. busy when their students want to get. a result we have this. daily let me say on the other hand being high level

corruption. till it will be we will have results in. the state. which cannot tolerate it we have to do more in the fight against corruption and this includes that proceeding in front of the coffee house to show results after a few years hence that's my point and this has to be shot at markets where you are remarkably complacent about it the commission is remarkably complacent about things like torture mafia capture and the minute political manipulation of the justice system let me turn to another subject for the time we have left babs it's worth the e.u. taking a good hard look at what's going on in america at the moment this is the unfolding story of a populist president staging an insurrection to try and prevent him being ousted in

a free and fair election how long before some of that starts to happen in the new and is the concern that this in washington should be a wake up call that it should listen to. well the 1st a remark that we all really live forward not the presidency office that biden because that's not what i asked that's not what i asked that necessarily to be mentioned because. the dialogue between the united states and europe in stands and also of the respect of rule of law proceeds the just like in america like in europe there's all share one point that in a former times it was standing there was common sense that democracy is our self understanding and strong and we have to start today that iraq receives

are coming more and more under pressure worldwide and. as we had to observe it. only balance so we have to fight both for our own well us we have to fight for democracy we have to fight for rule of law once again if our target was british self understanding today it is not because this will be decisive our national power will leave 10 or expense years finally mr creeper let's come back to germany there's a general election in september angela merkel is retiring and in a few days the c.d.u. your party will elect a new leader while none of the candidates to date seem to be generating much enthusiasm your most popular politician health minister young span isn't even on the ballot good you want to win elections. i'm very optimistic

because we have 3 candidates which are. very much of aged and i and i don't cherish europe europe for electoral remar and there are. many and sure it will not be easy when i'm going to now do we're leaving because she was our chancellor are horribly very long period of time since 2005 and a solo that's often quite novel that everybody will him as own style but it's an open race and for me it's very difficult to predict who will it will it is one of the candidates friedrich mad says said that immigrants are to blame for rising welfare costs and unemployment in germany do you really want your party to go down that road putting immigrants in the firing line

just to woo a few far right voters from the f.t. hasn't there been enough resentment and hatred directed at immigrants that are going to us as not right where you want to mention it melts it should be the right sentences and. this. not saying what he said it's not concerning the refugees what's the up with the well if you're in bosnia and herzegovina. it should not be the case that germany will go once again if front because now it's also in the responsibility of other european states to take care of her on their own otherwise we'll create a full effect so which we will search in 20152016 this should not be a repeat it once so i think. we have also areas. considering for

example the law nor are we our state and so it cannot be the solution that you drafted actually can come. to 'd the european union or in the states we need a solution we need a solution in the european well because. i think once again all these states signed the declaration. that peroration or protect refugees but in a way germany did a lot in the past and this can be done down and one time not. going to creep i'm unfortunately we've run out of time we have to leave it there thanks very much for being on conflict zone.

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this is the other news live from bourbon the party of chancellor angela merkel has a new leader delegates choose i mean a lot of ships to take the helm of the conservative c.d.u. party in a close 2nd round vote with general elections later this year in washington now has a good shot to be the party's candidate for chancellor. also coming up 5 now.