make up your. dog. the whole world is over reacted personally i don't think holding a primary that's unlawful yes there's been a tightening all we've done to express views when china imposed a national security law on hong kong last year it promised that the principle of one country 2 systems and be basic rights that it enshrines would be upheld but critics point to a rapid erosion of freedom since my guest this week is michael t. probation member of hong kong's legislative council and deputy and china's national people's congress he says the law of needs clarification so why does he still

support. michael keenan welcome to conflict zone thank you hong kong has started off this new year with mass arrests 53 pro-democracy politicians and activists detained on the grounds of subversion under the new national security law the move has been condemned by the world's leading democracy has rights groups law associations as being nothing more than a crackdown is hong kong witnessing a dismantling of its freedoms and its opposition won't i don't think so 1st of all just like you were never deals in the world we are busy fighting the pandemic. certainly the massive arrest that happened earlier this year

is about a primary being held there last year it involving 5060 people who participated in a primary in preparation for last year's election ok so so far the basis of the. primaries involves a lot of candidates whose election platform. volley. article $22.00 of the national security law which is to paralyze the government to stop everything from functioning to basically opposed every single funding and bill regardless of its nature there comes a large hole let me ask you a little bit more about about about what has prompted these arrests because actually this is what has shocked so many about these latest arrests. has been the

offense which has been considered subversion as you've articulated last summer the pro-democracy opposition the united to decide who might stand for elections they essentially organize themselves on the organized a primary they were hoping to go for a majority in the legislative council they've been arrested yes here's how the international community is reacting to those arrests we have the incoming u.s. secretary of state saying the following the arrest warrant assaults on those bravely advocating for universal rights we have the office of the u.n. high commissioner for human rights saying these latest arrests indicates that as had been feared the offense of subversion under the national security law is indeed being used to detain individuals for exercising a legitimate rights to participate in political and public life so in other words in a democracy this would be seen as standard politics but in hong kong it gets you arrested is that not disturbing to you. ok now if you read your let me share with you the

background of this now then you have to give me some time the national security bill involves article 20 which relates to the session in other words going for it but independence in that particular law is written very clearly that anybody showing a motive to do that would be deemed to have violated the law however. with regard to article 22 of the national security bill which is not a session going for independence or hong kong but merely to talk to the government to paralyze the legislature to vote no to everything gaining control of legislation and all that there is an extra clause or condition to that which is that they have to do it through a lawful means no personally i don't think holding a primary that's unlawful. so therefore if the primary in north people

who's perform are going for home going to pendants yes that would violate to go 20 which would mean which would. cry me it's so dangerous the close to volunteer national survey a bit however none of the candidates that ended up running really have hong kong independence as a performer however a lot of them have performed basic to come in and vote no to everything and paralyze the government however there has to be coupled with unlawful means not a question that i have been asking these used the primary itself for nor for now i don't think so right so little is it for the police making the arrests the therefore the police making arrests is really the 1st step ok and just a so i'm going to i'm a lawful practices so in other words mr keene you're calling for clarification

essentially but you know i'd like to look at some of the concerns that have been had and for example this is coming from the european council they have actually said these arrests penalize political activity that should be entirely legitimate as as i've already highlighted they say the national security law is being used sarah little people really don't in hong kong and you may have the political pluralism 1 in hong kong the european parliament at this point is calling on countries to consider same sions against targeted officials in hong kong the us has already imposed targeted sanctions as a result of these arrests it doesn't get much more serious than that and what you are calling for is just clarification. no let me respond. they make all these arrests and everybody is out on bail secondly the government

the secretary for justice have not human stop prosecuting anyone let alone that it may end up going to a court order not to be convicted or acquitted so this is simply the very 1st step they are arrested on the basis of of suspicion or violating article $22.00 of the national security wall people going to arrested and they are all released on bail on the basis of suspicion of while eating their national security law now let me assure. every country in the world the most democratic of the democracies police arrest people no arrest people and eventually they are all off the hook and prosecution don't move don't move in their own government lose face or if the prosecutor comes in and they lose all these cases in court also the government would lose face this is simply the very 1st step and the

whole world is now jumping on hong kong saying we're we don't have freedom we're going to hide in the stores in this and that the world i have a job to bring down always heard represent him go down this road that torn down or just simply the 1st step they are all released on bail here is what human rights watch has said what remains to be seen what is important is that what specific charge do they end up coming through and do they go according to. the national security law mr t. in the world as has been warning that this is in fact the 1st step toward repression in fact there were warnings that this would happen for example from human rights watch you said that the hong kong authorities with china's backing are imposing mainland style repression on a city long recognised for its freedoms they say hong kong's new security

legislation is nothing more than a roadmap for repression don't these latest arrests prove those warnings true ok so your view one might want to subpoena the whole world is over reacting and i'm supposed to be the most liberal of the pro give beijing. membership the whole world is over reacting they don't even know the details of these arrests or what it's all above. just like the supporters of bollywood from the us but how about the hong kong government's promise that this law would be used to target only a minority of people mr t. and me kerry lamb she she went on the airwaves she actually spoke before the united nations saying it would only target an extremely small minority of people who have breached the law while the life the property the basic rights and freedoms of the overwhelming majority of hong kong residents will be protected that's a message that you amplified by that you echoed for various journalistic

publications tell me mr team did you get it wrong the system seem like just a small minority of people who have been targeted these are the leaders of the pro-democracy movement the main figures more than 50 people rounded up mass arrests why would she do not believe them because they've arrested only 50 people and most likely a lot of them will never be charged the key is. who will be charged and on what basis don't we all have the patience to listen and see anymore don't we are we are all just getting super hyped and super sensitive these are people that join a primary that's the only common factor among them they are now looking into each of them where in their. journey towards

participating in the the primary where did the later and the section all of the measures of crude or one of the key suspicion is foreign government funding to fund the primary now if they can prove that it's a whole new different matter ok so you say let the progress really is targeted towards foreign government funding local opposition to right the national government then congress on that so you say let's not just lay out the baby with me about the merits of the national security law or not that's a different issue i don't think that's the purpose of today's interview right sentencing of pro-democracy activists for example and politicians joshua long and agnes chow and ivan lamb back in december amnesty calls it a warning shot for anyone who dares to openly criticize the government that they could be next they say incitements which is what they were charged with and

sentence on refers to the use of a megaphone to shout slogans during a protest is hong kong really afraid of people with megaphones is is that what it's come to in any country the likes of trust your law will be charged with treason he is actually going to foreign government too as to sanction his own country you don't call that. rule i don't argue nor do you call. that subsidy being called holding on patriotic ok and it's. unthinkable. have you ever thought of that what of an american go through china and china to censure in the us or a german legislator going to china and then asking trying to censure in germany because they're not happy with what the german government is doing how would you

react to that let's just stay on track here that i mean that is not what he was convicted of we have to say and also in order to say on track i'd also like to ask you because the national security law is not the only action we know that was recently handed down by beijing which essentially bypassed the hong kong legislature in november for opposition members were expelled from the legislature for in danger and national security the chinese parliament cleared the way for the disqualification with the resolution allowing hong kong recently celebrated its leaders deemed as a threat to security or not holding allegiance to hong kong was that a dark day for democracy and hong kong you said they expelled some legislators know their opposition could to india own. free will for disqualified because they were disqualified before the last election so they're not sure if

they're going to horace. they no longer serve in a legislative council the 13 they no longer serve in the legislative council because they were kicked out they were disqualified. there were 4 incumbent veges slater who entered the grays and were disqualified from the race for this term so there disqualification from entering the race carries through to this extended term this is the decision of the national people's congress the wrist of the opposition designed to retire and resign all of their own free will i keep asking them to stay in because actually i really enjoy having them endure that just danger because they were probably along more question announcers monitoring scrutiny in government those but they decided to give up and we were going to reply they were just out of 5 mr team but you know critics what they are pointing to here and what

is so concerning to so many is the lack of due process for these lawmakers the hong kong people there are others who just want a mystery in the harkonnen garden of his life and that's basically all of going to see the resolving mr team stripping the 4 legislators who have usually sat around i'm going to let it remain in to be with your wife dizzy until you were in office determined exclusively by the executive by the chief executive terry lam and without affording them an opportunity to be heard violates the basic principles of fairness and due process inheritance in the rule of law again this is coming from the hong kong bar association so no anyone can be dismissed simply at the whim of the teacher executive isn't that a troubling sign for basic rights in hong kong where is the due process mr team for the 4 lawmakers before lawmakers there were disqualified were disqualified on the basis of a walkman with foreign government but where is the due process can they appeal that

decision. they cannot have a of course these are that really can appeal you know they can appeal that decision and it will go to the court yes absolutely we do have forces and that they lose they can go to go puke call and a big boost because go to the court of appeal yes they haven't done that that's not that's not what the hong kong bar association says they said that legal certainty has been greatly impaired that it introduces an entirely different way to disqualify a legislator outside of article 17 outside of article 79 and without due process. and i'd like to add in that congressman because the greek word the hong kong bar association they tend to generalize about everything these 4 legislators that would disqualify definitely can and should pew and i think one or 2 of them would

probably win the appeal so yes then let me ask you as a follow up how do you put they should put their government to test about this kind of disqualification please understand i am not totally behind government disqualifying these people all their grounds are specific. allegations that they make ok because these people have not been the friends through their games by the government are you going to see them push for their difference standings in the government in the court and i think they are doing that and i don't know we know when that's going to happen i think we should know we don't see mr seen another home government may know when ordered time mr dean another point that you know has concerned some is the language that has been used by the chief executive and in the wake of the dismissal of these lawmakers she said the following we need to have a political body which is composed of patriots she said she was excited that bills will pass more efficiently at the legislature in the future it seems as if. there

is no room for differing or opposing views and voices anymore in the legislative council how does that serve the people of hong kong. that's a very good that's a very good question let me answer the objective for me. if the t.v. executive basically want to ram everything through let's go to save time. and the 1st to come out and condemn her for making that statement ok simply to make sure everything goes through minimize the question is ok and past $1000000000.00 funding barrow within an hour or 2 all right if you look at what's happening in the largest city council over the last 4 years we're trying to elect a chairman of the house committee and that's been stopped for over 9 months to

a year and no bill can never go to let's go there's the other extreme or putting everything to a stop. what i think carrie lamb is saying is that these people who are running for office in their goal ok because scrutinize the bill they need to be smart enough intelligent enough to come up with questions don't make sense so filibustering is an art you don't filibuster by repeating the same thing for 'd you know 3 months but magic so you have a reason and you turn to government i support and i've been doing that myself sometimes government thing i asked too many questions on ok i came asking a bar don't repeat the same questions 10 times 20 times and that's what the or bush sr were doing one point i think that's what kerry was talking about and there are concerns as we have mentioned that there is an attempt now to neutralize in fact

the opposition in order to have things run more smoothly for the probation side for example the decision to postpone elections by a year. into human rights watch has said the following about that they've said that in nov 29th pro-democracy candidates won local elections overwhelmingly that electoral showing seems to be why they have alleged kerry lambs government has disqualified pro-democracy candidates for hong kong's legislative council and in any event postponed those elections for a year they write what a better way to neutralize the power of hong kong's example than by pretending that the city's pro-democracy movement is the result of nefarious foreign influences was postponing the election and attempt to neutralize the opposition. another great question. if. covert 19 is not

an act of god and there is proof that there is a massive conspiracy behind covert $93.00 somebody somewhere invented to mess up the whole world with the sole purpose of stalking stopping hong kong legislative council election from going on then i would be very rare to hear the evidence of that but mr t. and that is no of the people there is a last minute comes to the down they have looked at it and justification and we have a justification of coronavirus and they point to nearby countries for example singapore and south korea which both are recently held successful general elections without registering a spike in covert 19 cases on the same side they look for example at the disapproval ratings of kerry lamb which most recently stood at 72 percent and so now the elections get postponed that doesn't look good does it 1st of all it's due to the

pandemic and then you said well when you confuse a few pandemic yes half of the world has. your lecture. on a mail in basis right in hong kong we have a problem because a lot of our residents the voters different some junk across the border because of the. we have quarantine issues and basically the border was stopped so a lot of these voters were deprived of the right to vote you mentioned in the beginning of our conversation that you did not feel that freedoms were under fire due to the national security law but i'd like to just point out another example to you and this is when it comes to freedom of speech and freedom of the press critics say there has been a swift crackdown they point to the arresting of a respected reporter who produced reporting critical of the police limiting of press cards forcing news organizations to surrender materie. ells related to pro-democracy candidates arresting the head of the popular apple daily jimmy lie

denying visas for no reasons to reporters critical of beijing just a few examples here freedom of the press is a casualty of the national security law you're reading about the arrest of mr jim you lie mr jim you lie has been behind a major push ok to get foreign government involved in funding opposition activities that home call in mind my mr july is not making positive contribution toward the country to a system all right i don't want to be the judge but i don't have any sympathy for him if he's arrested you may think here is a great democracy fighting. for a thing for democracy is one thing going through foreign government known for its sanctions to put pressure on beijing or to act differently about hong

kong is something else they are basically violating the basic law the 1st article which is hong kong is part of china and you will never achieve mr t. i'd like to ask you just briefly before we go claudia is an opposition lawmaker in hong kong said that the aim of china's national security legislation was to stun the hong kong into nothingness people will be so petrified so frightened so intimidated that they wouldn't dare say anything or do anything in opposition you have articulated here that you are one of the more liberal members of the probation camp you have sometimes spoken out against the government do you personally have to watch what you say how worried are you. let me be very honest with you i don't want to be personal about needs ok so please spare me from commenting about

my impression of josh korder law or in fact georgia law whatever. my honest opinion. is that yes there's been a tightening of freedom to express a view particularly one that comes to hong kong. gaining some kind of a greater control over its own destiny all right. norman ensuring that anybody can nominate to run for chief executive. against basic law so all i'm saying is that anybody comes up with any kind of claim that goes against the basic law yes the freedom to express such views is much less today than before because the security bill might we have to leave it there that i agree

michael thank you so much for joining us on conflicts out.

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. there's a live from the new us president says america is taking the lead in the fight against climate change president biden has signed executive orders aimed at reducing the rising global temperatures biden will host a global climate summit in april saying that the u.s. cannot meet the challenge on its own also coming up. the fallout continues over a vaccine shortfall the european union ups the pressure on the drug maker astra zeneca demanding that coke in 1000 back since.