set to go. as we take on the world. we're all about the stories that matter to. whatever eastment. job to be on fire made form. a real threats to vladimir putin that's how commentators are describing kremlin critic alex a novella the son who is he a courageous and charismatic opposition leader or an opportunist fighting a personal vendetta against president putin told the russian authorities certainly responding nervously to his recent return to moscow an avanti was immediately arrested in turn he put out a documentary film showing

a giant colors allegedly belonging to president putin that triggered more claims and counterclaims and violent protests across the country so on to the points we ask in a valley against putin who will win the russian showdown. thanks very much indeed for joining us here on to the point with me in the studio is stari asuka a freelance reporter and presenter born in russia and based in berlin darrius says novelle these investigations and the attack on him have for the 1st time politicised many young people in russia also with us is alexander our expert on russia an advisor to the energy giant gazprom he argues that russian society can live with corruption but if the younger generation feel they're losing out. that

could change quickly and a very warm welcome to steven pifer academic on a list and former u.s. ambassador with a focus on europe russia and much else besides he says the west should push back against the worst of russian misbehavior but it should also leave the door open for dialogue thank you for those 3 statements thank you for being here and i'd like to begin with you daria if i may and begin with vladimir putin himself he's clearly on the pressure that's big news he's under pressure from alexei no vile nice so tell us a little bit about himself so missing a volley has been around for over a decade has been a big presence on the square protests and 12 which a lot of people here will probably remember the biggest to date actually the protests that took time the took part took place this sunday were smaller what happened a lot. of ali is well known for his view and i should say

he knows how to speak the language towards the young people that's why i talked about it in my statement so he's charismatic he's charismatic and he knows how to play this irony how to make things stick so for example he is find in the last video was that he talked not only about the john paolo because you talk about the toilet brush for 700 euro which became beneficial symbols of protests of no if you noticed but a lot of people turned up at all of brushes some of it sprayed with gold or i've seen one of the price sticks at 100 euros which is something this kind of stuff sticks. definitely knows how to lead people he's a very well organized he's got the so-called headquarters like offices actually without having an official political party. movement has offices all over russia no political party hasn't quite bet not tonight or russia we think your party does not have an up or going with this is why the protests this

sunday were remarkable for the number of towns they took place and we had about 100 towns small ones like to not just moscow st petersburg and maybe novosibirsk ok so these pretty impressive stuff does that mean that when we say the alexander that he's the man putin fee is the most is not true if you buy into that if i want to tell you. of course correctly working with. but i have also a lot of academics. will suppose the truth so i want to be here as a political presence a ready. is of course a present to all of the very young generation in russia or the young generation who have never experienced communism who never experienced this kind of future which their. relatives fathers and grandfathers grandmothers mothers have

experienced during their life this is a generation which grew up with i would say democratic traditions in the ninety's but felt this more positively than there are the tiffs suffered in the ninety's and they have a kind of perspective for us which is completely different from that of the and here it comes to the point where the majority of the russians will still conservative traditionalists and who want to have a strong crusher 1st of all the majority of people in russia will not follow. because they have other values and many of. are also oriented negativity towards the west because of the ninety's where a lot of the west is being seen as a failure for for as assistance to do what it took to russia but on the other hand of course for pushing and for the kremlin it's a big danger that if not only could unite and organized the urban you use

behind his political platform also the political thought that form of him is not quite understand the bullets for me at least he is against corruption but we don't know if more right wing or left wing. incidents iranian soil a very mixed record. and he wants to become president this is old his character i think he doesn't want to be opposition leader he doesn't want to sit in the parliament he fights 1st and it was put and this is again something what makes the political career of him of himself in the future a very dangerous ok let's proceed if i could follow up next i think it's going to be interesting to see what the young generation in russia does now because if you look over the last 25 years the russian population has been i don't want to i mean be passive. the protests that you saw 800000 people in 2000 have in moscow but moscow the city of what 15000013 yeah right right if he in the my don

revolution at some point you had a half a 1000000 people on the sea of ukraine ukraine a city of 3000000. so the russian population has not yet come to the streets in the way that you've seen people come the streets in ukraine or in eastern europe earlier in the ninety's or maybe even ok but the question is going to be a younger generation now come out and it was interesting 2 things about the protests on saturday one was the numbers that you cited 100 cities all across russia that's pretty widespread the 2nd issue i thought was kind of interesting is that when you watch the protest the protesters were pushing back in the past if you watched russian protest the protesters are relatively docile i mean they don't really push back in the way that i think we saw happening on saturday and that might be of concern to russian security services ok very important point. is up next 1st of all the controls power in russia for 2 decades but his leadership has

become increasingly authoritarian and now for the 1st time there appears to be a real challenge of his dominance. he is the pop star of the russian opposition. is mobilizing people across the country is a russia free from corruption and putin. video posted on a. graduate explains how. by its elites he has been experiencing ever more of the state's power through arrests and trials his popularity is growing especially among the he is also controversial initially aligns with democratic party. in the later temporarily on nationalist slogans. he finished 2nd in moscow's 2013 mayoral elections in the presidential election he was barred from running against putin. 2 years later he was attacked with a nerve presumably by secret agents of the f.s.b.

the russian president makes fun of it without. for mentioning his name. because if they had wanted to fatally poison him. with guns when upon his return from germany where he was treated and he recovered the kremlin critic once again arrested how dangerous can not only still be for the president. of the voice of young russia. i was just wanted to bring up thing is that we're talking about protests on the scale of them and yes it is impressive but right next door to russia they come through which has been protesting on the streets since august every week sometimes even more we have pantries of thousands of people turning up every day they have been arrested they still haven't given up but. there have also haven't given up bella was politically essential remains the same country that it was it hasn't changed which and they have

a charismatic leader donna to hold off i would say for many younger people from russia and from belarus there has been a lot of writing about russia she's interesting for us she's understandable she is more mainstream and. i have to ask the question the question that begs is it is there something more general. just talking about absolutely something else happening here the west was an anchor for russia and then at the end of the. start of the. historical people looking towards the west. turning to. the west. for the majority of people. it is set for the west and used to hear it but it's true because the west to sit still problems. seemed. to liberal. the west is violent this is too primitive no he's saying they have the

same problems they have the same police brutal police which would be up there. and straight doesn't that it sits in germany and holland and so on so don't teach us and the problem is that the russian society is becoming anti western in many sense not the younger people but the older people and the traditionalists in russia saying we want to live in europe but in a different system of values and i think that the conflict of values between the liberal europe and the nonliberal of traditionalist russia and many parts belorussian of the countries is the main conflict which we have seen in the between the west and russia in the past when ok what's possible and. but i'm not sure totally because if you look at them i don't revolution in ukraine in 2014 while it morphed into a broader protest against the kleptocracy a victory on a coach and the growing authoritarianism it started out as a protest because you're on a coach said he was not going to sign an association of being with the european

union and for a lot of ukrainians they saw this and you're taking away my chance dark closer to europe so i think europe still has a draw it may not have the gloss that it did say 15 or 20 years ago and the question is going to be in a place like russia where i think you're right there is this clash of values do younger russians say no we still want the values of europe and then how does that work out internally with russia and i think that the problem russia has is i think russia would. there's a segment the russian population and i think this might include of many people in common who would like to join europe but on russian terms and i'm not sure that europe is prepared to accept russian values and i think that's the clash of my point with the ideas of europe have changed you might disagree but it's also true in the west that become somehow militant also in the wars a lot of i work with many russians in the peter sense you know there is a western. yes but what's old king about. germany is can hardly be described

as a function as a liberal society we can we can talk of germany's probity view. best model for a liberal democracy in the world as i'm saying this as a german but in the same time we see that we are having certain problems and problems inside europe well that's not the subject of all talk right now i'm only stalking about the russians who i work with young people in the in the u.s parliaments in russia mapes serve if they are there saying yes we want to be a part of your we want a utopian values but not at any price. should stop teach us we also have something to bring into this europe this is this is not a contradiction what you have said it's only not even a correction but an important point which i would have to make that things have changed a little bit from the times which we know when the the college revolutions and the other revolutions were conducted they took place in eastern europe ok that was the world in many ways according to putin and he lied to me putin the russian leader

has surprised many people by actually responding to these documentary that we heard about the russian leader said he had yet seen the film but he nevertheless dismissed it as boring and brainwashing for the 1st time devalues the film to attack putin directly there's plenty of footage of a lavish black sea palace the largest palace in the world apparently alexander. you're going in the background almost. how corrupt is not in the putin think he's not himself is not corrupt russia is corrupt and he doesn't need to. go. personally it's not corrupt i don't think that he has personal that values i don't think so it has to be proved i don't think so you ask me i think around him the oligarchs are corrupt the world in russia has a problem of corruption the major problems not only has his cronies i listen same

to you it's cost the why they're building this to demonstrate the world that they can build a better car the cost of the french 400 years ago or you know decide to have a number they want to have more yes yes we laugh at this and i'm trying to explain what they what they wanted to create a big moment. for a strong russia at the bottom of the coast yes for us to do the coolest. i think it's it's a symbol of power tools to show the presence at the black sea lions that like the palace that we remember so well in the remaining capital bucharest this is far more of a i think more expensive but it's built by the oligarchs and accounts and the project of course probably will one day they thought that put in leipzig uses costal that he steps down but he's not stepping down. and i think that it's been interesting that while the kremlin says you know putin has nothing to do with this they could say who owns it who built it and they're totally silent on that point or

it's clearly it's not being built for somebody else and i think in the absence of any further information you know it's clearly been built for putin on the broader question. i mean whether or not putin is personally corrupt we have different views on that he has tolerated an incredible amount of corruption in russia and i guess that was probably the biggest surprise when i was still in the u.s. government back in the 2000 when putin came to power i think the one thing that we really expected was he will tighten things up i think there was a sense in russia that things had become too loose in the 1990 s. too much chaos so he would restore a degree of order but there's also a sense that this is somebody who actually you know crack down on corruption and i don't think we've seen that crime got some. but that's what it's going to be some some somebody who would who would be he was viewed as an honest leader a man who stood by his word that was the that was always a message around putin and there was hope i mean i don't remember.

but there was hope that something will change that russia will become the western country that so many people hope for it would in the ninety's and the mass would be cleaned up and we would have a normal life and it has not come to fruition. you had in the demonstrations there were a lot of young people who said i haven't seen another president other than vladimir putin i can say the same there was even a mean that there is not a cat in russia that has been born before putin they're going to kind of life. through. and just i think is such a focal point of this corruption that many people have associated himself so much in the fabric of the russian society that if we want change has to go sentiment among many things the basic problem is that the russia has no idea what is life and we in the west and the united states when it was futile in life and the russians didn't have a jump from communism from the tarion system was a. major p.g.d.

into something else to do capitalism where everybody tried to become rich the corruption is a problem of the whole society but the people of the top of it rich but people of the below also in many ways corrupt fortunately not only in russia but in eastern europe they think it's normal it's a way of life in order to survive they don't think it's good think it's a way to survive what they say is they at the top should steal too many too much money and then now of course is. that. actually this is exploding at the top and this is what makes people of course a wonder whether it's that there. is. an alternative a genuine viable alternative to the putin rule that we've seen now for 20 years i think it's too early to say i mean you do have. to see what happens on sunday i

mean are you going to see the sort of evolution that you saw in belarus where people are prepared to go into the streets on a more regular basis i don't think at this point we can gauge how powerful the vollies poll is but he's also going up against a very organized authoritarian system a very established police state that you know is going to push back. and that's going to be the clash i i personally i think putin made a tactical error i think arrestee involved in evolving his return actually is put putin in a box because you know he now has to do something you know back down or perhaps send him on the jail for a number of years and that's going to get attention in a ball me that nevaeh might not have attracted had he simply come back and been allowed to return and then go on with whatever is going to do what evidence would you if this were a sort of a council of wise men and women which it indeed did it is in many ways they've the german government was a couple long unsay was advised to you have for us didn't approach in this crisis

in russia with the with the with the putin regime and then of the challenge. i think the west should continue sanctioning especially the only gox the corrupt top of the russian society how have a lot of assets in europe and there have been a lot of investigations coming out i'm not saying that the western powers should act on the pointers from the team that's definitely not the case but that they should maybe have a better look of people who get european citizenship the practice of the golden passports so-called cyprus has been discontinued for now but a lot of people have got them practices like this as long as something like this is happening in the west putin and the likes of him have the full freedom to claim they're not better than us you know i think there's actually one good develop in the united states is with a law that was passed in december it's now going to ban the ability of shell

companies to own real estate and assets in the united states i suspect there's a huge amount of real estate in miami in new york that's owned by russian oligarchs probably ukraine oligarchs and it's all through the shell companies so we don't know who you're going to have to now disclose the beneficial owner and that would be useful in a number of ways been for exam. but if there's a decision in the target individual or were dark we then know who to go after because it would sort of 2nd idea which i hesitate because it's somewhat un-american we don't tend to hold families responsible for the act of a father but i do wonder if the rest look at sanctioning not just the oligarch but families if an oligarch can't travel to europe that's one thing but if the spouse can't make her and your shopping trip to london or if the kids can't go to college that might have a different impact and it's harsh you know but you know it might be a way to target some sanctions that actually begin to stir up some concern among the people who are i think are close in the putin inner circle it sounds very

plausible to me but you know more about these things alexander tell us is that they have problems. doing this because you many of these people have british or german or american citizenship and you can't punish your sanction your own citizens in this way and of course people want to i don't want to sound cynical but direct russian money of course for the old banks of foreign corporate and the west and the and the very real problem icing. is i don't know what to do but i think that if the sanctions will be too harsh if for example not stream 2 will be completely stopped and the hall is assigned to look to put in when we are against you then this will mobilize of course more and more people not for but against not violently and against the west in russia we should see this. the one thing that people feel as i followed the story in the past couple of weeks one thing that people have said a lot of people have said is that they're very impressed by the courage shown by

alex and of nevada and returning to the country and i will because it has been talks about him because he has indicated that he has thought about it and then we need to understand the gravity of the situation here won't this is the question is his life at risk. i think nobody is completely safe in the russian jail as we know from the case of mr magnitsky and how many others. let's not forget about the covert outbreak which obviously have brakes of covert russian jails and i don't think he's fully healthy after the chemical attack can be 100 percent healthy. i mean i think the russian security services tried to kill him once that should be a message and certainly i think he's at risk of spending a long time in jail i mean they will find reasons to keep him in jail and again there's that question is that the smart thing for the kremlin to do because to the extent that they either keep him in jail or if in fact you know he he does die

under mysterious circumstances you know that's going to make him more of a martyr and how does that then react and with the population that certain crimes reported he has already let it be known that he will not commit suicide he will not take his own life and that seems to be a sort of a reassurance to the world you know or reassurance not an indication that he believes it's who you know he could be knocked off if something happens he's saying it wasn't by my own hand but he wants doesn't want to give up he wants to fight for the presidency i think he wants to become the top man in russia and therefore he had to return there was no alternative no option for him to stay here and work for a. bunch of ill or for someone else i mean for age of liberty i mean that would be his fate here of course he wants to go back to fight of the else he would lose of course his electorate and i think that was the kremlin so that he would simply he would stay out of the dilemma of the crime and what are they going to do to bring him into prison this will highlight this points again and make him even more popular to be after him or of course you know to kill to poison him would be

even more disastrous mistake so. option out because the germans stripped of citizenship sent into exile imagines it will happen will happen but. i think that this is one of the very. options which in the end make up we began with daria so let's go to give daria the final word to. people in the west like to talk about it so very often liberals in the west talk about the ultimate demise of. russia be a better place after i think there is a chance to improve for russia. but it's not a guarantee. for all we know you have some kind of political. don't know thing it's gonna be a while to play ok. thanks very much for joining us from hope you've enjoyed our conversation. if you have enjoyed the show come back next

time and by inches.

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player. played. a. good player. this is deja vu news live from berlin badly needed a shot in the arm the european union's vaccination drive is failing across the block with more and more countries warning shots will be delayed for weeks or even months we look at the challenges including the growing dispute between the e.u. and the pharma companies astra zeneca. britain is one country that has.