what could any moves to do with doctors and nurses. even good. people world over information. they want to express. facebook and twitter. in touch. goldwater's overreactive personally i don't think holding a primary that's unlawful yes there's been a tightening all freedom to express views when china imposed a national security law on hong kong last year it promised that the principle of one country 2 systems and the basic rights that it enshrines would be upheld but critics point to a rapid erosion of freedom since my guest this week is michael t.

probation member of hong kong's legislative council and deputy and china's national people's congress he says the law these clarification so why does he still support it. michael keenan welcome to conflict zone thank you hong kong has started off this new year with mass arrests 53 pro-democracy politicians and activists detained on the grounds of subversion under the new national security law the move has been condemned by the world's leading democracies rights groups law associations as being nothing more than a crackdown is hong kong witnessing a dismantling of its freedoms and its opposition. well i do think.

first of all just like you would never deals in the world we are busy fighting the pandemic certainly the massive arrests that happened earlier this year it's about a primary being held last year it involving 5060 people who participated in the primaries in preparation for last year's election ok so so far the basis of brother or sister the primary involves a lot of candidates whose election platform. volley. article $22.00 of the national security law which is to paralyze the government to stop everything from functioning to basically you oppose every single funding bill regardless of its nature or come to a large scale let me ask you

a little bit more about about about what has prompted these arrests because actually this is what has shocked so many about these latest arrests. has been the offense which has been considered subversion as you've articulated last summer the pro-democracy opposition the united to decide who might stand for elections they essentially organize themselves on the organized a primary they were hoping to go for a majority in the legislative council they've been arrested yes here's how the international community is reacting to those arrests we have the incoming u.s. secretary of state saying the following the arrest warrant assaults on those bravely advocating for universal rights. we have the office of the u.n. high commissioner for human rights saying these latest arrests indicates that as had been feared the offense of subversion under the national security law is indeed being used to detain individuals for exercising a legitimate rights to participate in political and public life so in other words in a democracy this would be seen as standard politics but in hong kong it gets you arrested

is that not disturbing to you ok knowledge you are doing let me share with you the background of this now then you have to give me some time the national security bureau involves article 20 which relates to session in other words going for good but independence invent particular law is returned very clearly that anybody showing a motive to do that would be deemed to have violated the law however. with regard to article 22 of the national security bill which is not session going for independence or hong kong but merely to talk to the government to paralyze the legislature to vote no to everything gaining control of legislation and all of that there is an extra clause or condition to that which is that they have to do it

through a lawful means no personally i don't think holding a primary as unlawful so therefore if the primary enormous people whose past form going for hong kong independence yes that would violate article 20 which would mean which would make crimea itself dangerous be closed to vote in a national survey bill however none of the candidates that ended up crying really have hong kong independence as a platform however a lot of them have in their platform basic to come in and whoa no to everything and paralyze the government however that has to be coupled with a more phone means not a question that i have been asking is the primary itself a lawful and i don't think so right so let's examine all the police making the

arrests that therefore the police making arrests is really the 1st step and those things aren't going to start i mean all 4 practices. so in other words mr teen you're calling for clarification essentially but you know i'd like to look at some of the concerns that have been had and for example this is coming from the european council they have actually said these arrests penalize political activity that should be entirely legitimate as as i've already highlighted they say the national security law is being used. sarah little people who are living in hong kong and you may have been titled our political pluralism in hong kong the european parliament at this point is calling on countries to consider same sions against targeted officials in hong kong the u.s. has already imposed targeted sanctions as a result of these arrests it doesn't get much more serious than that and what you are calling for is just a clarification you. know let me respond. to

rest and everybody is out on bail secondly the government the secretary for justice not human stop prostituting anyone let alone that it may end up going to a court order not to be convicted or acquitted so this is simply the very 1st step they are arrested on the basis of of suspicion or volley article $22.00 of the national security wall people going to arrested and they are all released on bail on the basis of suspicion of. the national security law now let me assure. every country in the world the most democratic of the democracies police arrest people no arrest people and eventually they are all off the hook and prosecution don't move don't move in their own

government lose face or if the prosecutor comes in and they lose all these cases in court also the government would lose face this is simply the very 1st step and the whole world is now jumping on hong kong saying well we don't have freedom we are going to hide in the crazy this and that the world to me i have a job to bring to all wars in order to reprimand down this is known to her and the russians are simply the 1st step they are all released on bail here is what human rights watch has said what remains to be seen what is important is that what specific charge do they know coming through and do they go according to. their national security law mystic seeing the world as has been warning that this is in fact the 1st step toward repression in fact there were warnings that this would happen for example from human rights watch

you said that the hong kong authorities with china's backing are imposing mainland style repression on a city long recognised for its freedoms they say hong kong's new security legislation is nothing more than a roadmap for repression. these latest arrests prove those warnings true ok so your view one might want to subpoena the whole world is over reacting and i'm supposed to be the more liberal of the pro give beijing camp. membership the whole world is over reacting they don't even know the details of these arrests or what it's all above. just like supporters of all no term in the u.s. but how about the hong kong government's promise that this law would be used to target only a minority of people mr t. and me kerry lam she she went on the air waves she actually spoke before the united nations saying it would only target an extremely small minority of people who have

breached the law while the life the property the basic rights and freedoms of the overwhelming majority of hong kong residents will be protected that's a message that you amplified that but you echoed for various journalistic publications tell me mr team did you get it wrong the system seem like just a small minority of people who have been targeted these are the leaders of the pro-democracy movement the main figures more than 50 people rounded up mass arrests why would you do not believe them because they've arrested only 50 people and most likely a lot of them were never be charged. the period is that the who will be charged and on what basis don't we all have the patience to listen and see anymore don't we are we all just getting super hyped and super sensitive these are people

that join a primary that's the only common factor among them they are now looking into each of them where in their. journey towards participating in the primary. later and the section all of the national security or one of the key suspicion is foreign government funding to fund the primary now if they can prove that then it's a whole new different matter ok so you say let the planners to lay out all this part of it towards foreign government funding local opposition to write their national government come down congress on that so you say let's not this play out with me about the merits of the national security law or not that's a different issue i don't think that's the purpose of today's interview right sentencing of pro-democracy activists for example and politicians joshua long and agnes chow and ivan lamb back in december agassi calls it

a warning shot for anyone who dares to openly criticize the government that they could be next they say incitements which is what they were charged with and sentenced on refers to the use of a megaphone to shout slogans during a protest is hong kong really afraid of people with megaphones is is that what it's come to in any country the likes of trust your lawyer will be charged with treason he is actually going to foreign government to ask them to sanction his own country you don't call that. i don't argue the word recorder that's absolutely being totally non patriotic ok and it's. unthinkable february the thought of that one of american goes or china and asked china to censure in the us or

a german legislator going to china and asking trying to censure germany because they're not happy with what the german government is doing how would you react to that let's just stay on track here i mean that is not what he was convicted of we have to say and also in order to say on track i'd also like to ask you because the national security law is not the only action we know that was recently handed down by beijing which essentially bypassed the hong kong legislature in november for opposition members were expelled from the legislature for in danger of national security the chinese parliament cleared the way for the disqualification with the passing of a resolution allowing hong kong as well as the elements its leaders deemed as a threat to security or not holding allegiance to hong kong was that a dark day for democracy and hong kong you said they expelled some legislators know the opposition could to in their own. free will for disqualified

because they were disqualified before the last election so they're not sure if they're in the chorus. they no longer serve in a legislative council that's their team they no longer serve in the legislative council because they were kicked out they were disqualified. there were 4 incumbent legislator who entered the greys and were disqualified from the race for this term so their disqualification from entering the race carries through to this extended term this is the decision of the national people's congress to rest of the opposition this sign to retire and resign all of their own free will i keep asking them to stay in because actually i really enjoyed having them in their legislature because they would provide a lot more question and answers monitoring scrutiny in government those but they

decided to give up and we were not sure why they were just out of the 5 mr team but you know critics what they are pointing to here and what is so concerning to so many is the lack of due process for these lawmakers the haunts people there are those of us who just want to mystery in the harkonnen garden of a slice and that's basically all of going to see the resolving mr team stripping the 4 legislators who has usually said i'm going to live differently an individual your wife is the interview an office determined exclusively by the executive by the chief executive terry lam and without affording them an opportunity to be heard violates the basic principles of fairness and due process inheritance in the rule of law again this is coming from the hong kong bar association so no anyone can be dismissed simply at the whim of the chief executive isn't that a troubling sign for basic rights in hong kong where is the due process mr team for the 4 lawmakers before lawmakers there were disqualified were disqualified on the

basis or walkman with foreign government but where is the due process can they appeal that decision. they cannot have that of course because that really can appeal you know they can appeal that decision and it will go through the court yes absolutely we do have forces and that they lose because you go to go puke or and have big lose because you go to the court of appeal yes they have been done though that's not a drunk that's not what the hong kong bar association says they said that legal certainty has been greatly impaired that it introduces an entirely different way to disqualify a legislator outside of article 70 outside of article 79 and without due process. and i'd like to add role in that context mr terry because the greek word the hong kong bar association they tend to generalize about everything these 4 legislators

that would disqualify definitely can and should pew and i think one or 2 of them would probably win the appeal so yes then let me ask you as a follow up how do you put they should put their government to test about this kind of disqualification please understand i am not totally behind government disqualifying these people all the grounds and specific. allegations that they make ok because these people have not been good friends through their education made by the government are you going to see them for dead friends trying things in their government in the courts and i think they are doing that and i don't know you know when that's going to happen i think we should all we can see mr see another home government may know when order time mr t. another point that you know has concerned some is the language that has been used by the chief executive and in the wake of the dismissal of these lawmakers she said

the following we need to have a political body which is composed of patriots she said she was excited that bills will pass more efficiently at the legislature in the future it seems as if there is no room for differing or opposing views and voices anymore in the legislative council how does that serve the people of hong kong. that's a very good that's a very good question let me answer that objectively. if the chief executive basically want to ram everything to let's go to save time. and the 1st to come out and condemn her for making that statement ok simply to make sure everything goes through minimized the question is ok and past $1000000000.00 funding barrow within an hour or 2 all right if you look at what's happening in the largest city council over the last 4 years we're trying to

elect a chairman of the house committee and that's been stopped for over 9 months to a year and no bill can never go to let's go test the other extreme or putting everything to a stop. what i think carrie lamb is saying is that these people who are running for office in their goal ok because scrutinize the bill they need to be smart enough intelligent enough to come up with questions don't make sense so filibustering is an art you don't filibuster by repeating the same thing for you know 3 months but most of to you have a reason and you turn into government i support it i've been doing that myself sometimes government thing i asked too many questions are no care to me ask you why don't repeat the same questions 10 times for new times and that's what the op was

if you were doing one point i think that's what i was talking about and there are concerns as we have mentioned that there is an attempt now to neutralize in fact the opposition in order to have things run more smoothly for the probation side for example the decision to postpone elections by a year. into human rights watch has said the following about that they said that in nov 29th teen pro-democracy candidates won local elections overwhelmingly that electoral showing seems to be why they have alleged kerry lambs government has disqualified pro-democracy candidates for hong kong's legislative council and in any event postponed those elections for a year they write what a better way to neutralize the power of hong kong's example than by pretending that the city's pro-democracy movement is the result of nefarious foreign influences was postponing the election and attempt to neutralize the opposition another great

question. if. covert 19 is not an act of god and there is proof that there's a massive conspiracy behind komo $93.00 somebody somewhere invented to mess up the whole world with the sole purpose of stalking stopping hong kong legislative council election from going on then i would be very clear to hear the evidence of that but mr t. in that is no of the evil there is a last minute comes to the actually down they have looked at and justification and we have a justification of coronavirus and they point to nearby countries for example singapore and south korea which both recently held successful general elections without registering a spike in covert 19 cases on the same side they look for example at the disapproval ratings of terry lamb which most recently stood at 72 percent and so

now the elections get postponed that doesn't look good does it 1st of all it's due to the pandemic and then you said well when you confuse the dependency yes half of the world has. your lecture. on the mail in basis right in hong kong we have a problem because a lot of our residents are voters there's been some junk across the border and because of the pandemic we have quarantine issues and basically the border was stopped so a lot of these voters were deprived of the right to vote you mentioned in the beginning of our conversation that you did not feel that freedoms were under fire due to the national security law but i'd like to just point out another example to you and this is when it comes to freedom of speech and freedom of the press critics say there has been a swift crackdown they point to the arresting of

a respected reporter who produced reporting critical of the police limiting of press cards forcing news organizations to surrender materie. ells related to pro-democracy candidates arresting the head of the popular apple daily jimmy lie denying visas for no reasons to reporters critical of beijing just a few examples here freedom of the press is a casualty of the national security law you are very sure about the arrest of mr jimmy like mr jimmy has been behind a major push ok to get foreign government involved in funding opposition to be sent home call in mind my mr jimmy lie is not making positive contribution toward the country to a system all right i don't want to be the judge but i don't have any sympathy for him if he's arrested you may think here is a great democracy fighting for

a king for democracy is one thing going to foreign government known for its sanctions to put pressure on beijing or to act differently about hong kong is something else they are basically valente the basic law the 1st article which is hong kong is part of china and you will never achieve mr t. i'd like to ask you just briefly before we go claudio is an opposition lawmaker in hong kong said that the aim of china's national security legislation was to stun the hong kong into nothingness people will be so petrified so frightened so intimidated that they wouldn't dare say anything or do anything in opposition you have articulated here that you are one of the more liberal members of the probation camp you have sometimes spoken out against the government do you personally have to

watch what you say how worried are you. let me be very honest with you i don't want to be personal about leeds ok so please spare me from commenting about my impression of josh korder law or in fact georgia law or whatever. might honest opinion and prepare is that yes there's been a tightening of freedom to express views particularly when it comes to hong kong. gaining some kind of a greater control over its own destiny a right of. civic nomination that anybody can nominate to run for chief executive and the against basic law so all i'm saying is that if anybody comes up with any kind of claim that goes against that basic law yes the

freedom to express such views is much less today than before because the bill national security bill might we have to leave it there that i agree michael thank you so much for joining us on conflicts around. thank you.

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