through research from the deck of the 1950 s. and was codified in the khobar counterintelligence interrogation manual. and has 2 basic techniques on which all the rest of the procedures to run one is censored operation and the other is self-inflicted pain. the cia trained allied agencies in the techniques so in effect you know knowing about dissemination about if you just send these techniques to other armies could you take an ordinary individual like a draft or recruit and make a person become an affective interrogator. and it seems that no guns were

experiment was likely or a sponsor. picked. but i learned of incidents such as the destruction of millions of men women and children for betrayed by the nazis in world war 2 i was a possible ask myself the ordinary people well courteous and decent in everyday life can act callously in you mainly without any limitations of conscience. under what conditions would a person obey authority who commanded actions that went against conscience these are exactly the questions that i wanted to investigate it yeah university. at the moment sperm a very simply was similar to torture this was one not all the research we've been describing is the impact of interrogation upon the subject. had another agenda the impact of interrogation upon the interrogator. if he were to indicate

a wrong answer you would say wrong then tell him the number of balls you're going to get and. then give him the punishment. and read the correct word pair ones in ordinary people who fit by all the regular scales very normal americans and then he subjected them under false color to just doing what he called an educational experiment try to encourage people to apply ever higher voltages as a false patient kept on getting making mistakes here but. in fact milgram was able to encourage at least in his 1st experiments i think close to 70 percent to go on to apply highly dangerous and sometimes fatal shocks to get that man think of that. but he's not only that. you know what i mean i mean time i learned likes it or not we must go on until my mother used to

take the responsibility and again i heard that. meat under our. international essential if you continue teaching this to money life here and i mean do you think it's wrong you just to let him live. i mean i'm going to take responsibility for any happens that i don't i'm responsible for anything that happens you continue. next to the slow. dance trap music answer plays. out and 95 mile dance. he did this simply with a very simple thing putting the person behind a wall and having a person with a white lab coat telling them that they needed to continue very ordinary people can be influenced by situations and it's one of the implications of both the milgram

experiment the zimbardo it's. the stanford prison experiment it was i think a unique attempt to answer that question of what makes some people behave in a good way but what makes some people behave in a bad way and so the idea was. let's. let's find an evil place and present everywhere in the world the evil places and let's kill this evil place was only good people. to get the students involved i had convinced the palo alto police department to make a mock arrest of all the students who were going to be prisoners and then they came

down to the basement of stanford psychology department the place where the prison study was done. the idea is prison is made to feel inferior insignificant worthless the most important thing is you take away the name they become a number and of course given they have smocks it with no underpants behind it showing up like 1st hour and there it was humiliating was also abrupt was quick it was just you know take them off put this on and then i got dusted with baking soda which was supposed to be easy to delouse or and i was led to sell what some bardot did was a very cheap dark cost of. the kind of thing that milgram was doing

not only zimbardo. i think you know the guard called john wayne believed that ethics don't matter is the environmentalists are the sissel. that's not true all life is real life. we needed to get tougher with the prisoners. and it could well be that we were instructed by the experimenters to get tougher in fact i don't think we considered ourselves to be a subject of the experiment we were merely a tool of the researchers to get the results they wanted from the real subjects which we thought were the prisoners and i decided to become the nastiest prison guard that i could make myself where i could buy them oh god did it is money or you want to leave and i. will yeah off yeah all of them.

and then you would use my magic with. you 345. i was responsible for coming up with all these routines that i would put the prisoners through where i'd have them stand in a line recites their numbers do push ups do jumping jacks. i have never once stopped to think that these prisoners were suffering any harm or any damage were not or not beating anybody were just sort of applying psychological pressure on them come on. by. there. it harms me how did that. how does it harm just a thing that you know. people can be like and yeah and let me in on some knowledge

that i've never experienced 1st hand i've read about and i've read a lot about it but i've never experienced it firsthand i've never seen someone turn that way and i know you're a nice guy you know you and just what would you have. i don't know it might play out spectacularly in the military so the connections would be much further down the road it would be particularly. in the iraq war and in the setting up of moet all of that. and by the time you get to 2001 it's already this cultural artifact and so it is going to be picked up by. by anyone for any permanent.

kind of people held the cornerstone of they are not there because they stole because. they are not common criminals. their enemy combatants and terrorists who are being detained for acts of war against our country and that is why different rules have to apply. and i do. the continuity this extraordinary. if you look at a sketch of the cubicle and of the student volunteer at mcgill university and then if you look forward to 2002 when the 1st al qaeda suspects are

being confined at camp x.-ray upon tunnel there in goggles gloves and air most of that look like god just like that 1957 sketch. after $911.00 all of us working at ph are realized that there would very likely be a huge problem of interrogation gone wild meaning torture cruel inhuman and degrading to treatment. the use of extreme isolation was one of the remains of techniques that were employed by a fish oils interrogators and so forth literally starting all the way back in 2002

for many many days and that is just unbelievably destructive. and they began confining people went on and on and moved to. having psychologists do interviews with patients as cover and additional flaws individual sources of trauma and security and then they they also discovered because they were done and with muslims. muslim males are.

upset by nudity and also by female physical contact and fear of don't. race has always played a role in american torture it's the american torture techniques are part of old military punishments punishments that were used on slaves. and. and you might find that strange but there was one area where slaves were never whipped but you use clean techniques on them so they didn't leave marks and that was if you're going to sell a slave because the slave that had wit marks means that they were not going to obey and so a clean slave was so got a higher price. the cotton industry in the southern delta states of the united states depended completely on torture. over the course of 4 decades human beings

by using their bodies as a technological form as a technological machine were able to multiply by 8 times the amount of cotton an individual person could pick in a single day so the use of torture is absolutely tied at the moment from very canny . in these kinds of cases. many people in the system. that the people who are imposing these conditions. believe that ordinary punishment is too good for these people had a lot of it is about the other decides that religiously ethically. nationally

culturally it's easier than it would be to sub from your own community to do that so. in guantanamo. secretary defense rumsfeld appointed the commander geoffrey miller whose job it was to extract information and geoffrey miller made up a cd or staffed it. and in flew to iraq and under the. with the permission of the commander there general sanchez the then comprende training sessions for the interrogators and the stuff at abu ghraib prison where he transmitted the guantanamo and techniques to the abu ghraib stuff

basically the restraints were removed and they were told to get results the thing that became so clear is that what the united states was doing was not a secret it was hidden in plain sight it wasn't really until the photographs from abu ghraib were released which were just you know the tip of the iceberg of what was actually happening that people in this country began actually talking about it. but we didn't know what it was exactly the right thing to do if i had to recommend all of the you have the right to set the right sequence of actions. that we did exactly what.

they were seeing the most not all of them i can look into whether one is 1600 of them we've only seen up in about 20 maybe 31600 and they ate the worst ones or are the ones we haven't seen.

so and yes they were violating. military regulations on what they're doing but. they were operating within a system in which they were conditioned or structured in order to violate those laws when you arrived at the brave where you where what happened there. almost immediately after we arrived we were briefed that there was misconduct but we weren't given details and the interrogators that i knew who had been there during that time didn't they didn't talk about it so we we didn't know if i learned everything through the news . we understood the geneva conventions to mean that absolutely you know you knew you couldn't you couldn't harm anybody in your care that your primary

responsibility was there will be. rather than putting you in distress but then we were confused and then of you know of course we got these memos from the justice department and from the pentagon. authorizing the use of much more harsh techniques . we started docking those techniques when i was stationed in mosul among them were stress positions sleep deprivation. inducing hypothermia. to stay and in any way we could put them in in distress using dogs this is this is a so-called slippery slope so that they hate the gloves off policy allowed american interrogators from going from a certain list of techniques that were let's say allowed and even those who are already torture to doing extreme things rape and sodomy you know

the most extreme forms of physical and psychological patel easy. you can just torture somebody on a whim without knowing how to do it and the reality of course is that torture like any physical skill right requires training requires practice it requires an institutional setting a built environment really you need to have this institutionalized spates physical space in which you can perform torture we want you know we we wanted to be successful i was against the war i don't know what liberal i didn't vote for george bush. but i wanted to do my job well you know i felt like you know if i can

be successful and get intelligence from people that could end the war quickly it would be better for iraq better for for us from and the people short. in recent days is going to focus a few. betrayed our values on solving the refutation of our country. and when 6 or 7 investigations under way. in a military justice system that. we know that those. wherever they are going to justice. i was angry at our leadership because i i knew that they were prosecuting interrogators and guards and leadership wasn't being held accountable i.

i was disappointed in myself and. a reviewer there was terrible so i was i was right i was very angry when the abu ghraib trial happened. i got a call from the lawyer for chip frederick. and he asked me to act as part of the defense team i said well the person that you should really talk to is some part of he ran this experiment in the 1970 s. and the situations of abu ghraib as far as i can tell are those conditions that are also reproduced in the. zimbardo experiments chip frederick he's. the man here he was the one who had the idea of putting electrodes on the hood his lawyer said the problem now is the military want to use him in

a show trial in baghdad. in abu ghraib not only not a single scene office that went to trial not a single scene officer got a call letter of reprimand in fact in some cases they even got promoted in the offices so it's it's the people at the top always take care of the people at the top. we're still evaluating how we are going to approach the whole issue of interrogations detentions and so forth and i don't believe that anybody has but belong on the other hand i also have a belief that we need to look forward as los as opposed to looking looking backwards. we'll look forward to look backward go forward is going to be like backward if you

don't do something about what happened in the past nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past and for this among other people i fault president obama essentially he gave everybody dick cheney donald rumsfeld he gave them all a free pass. to push w. bush they're all going to be rehabilitated they're all going to be treated as great statesmen one day i mean they gave president obama a nobel prize for not being george w. bush to. the question of course the world cup benson around me you know boarding is does it work is torture work doesn't work people that have information that are part of an underground apparatus a terrorist organization a revolution urbanisation accomplished organization whatever organized form of collective elements of ip they won't. know. and the

people that you pick up that are innocents yes you'll. turn them to pieces you store them you'll ruin them. i think that a few of the people that passed passed through my hands and interrogated did have intelligence but most of the vast majority of the people that i dealt with were just being picked up because they were males of military age and they were just get swept up in these raids i don't think torture is always being used as a method to gain information or or confessions it's often just being used out of out of anger and fear. here in the united states we have this picture of torture as something that is done by the lonely person the lonely the man who does it more in sorrow than in anger because he is absolutely

forced to because so many lives depend on it is willing to take the moral stain and the moral pain on him and in order to save all these people there was always this anxiety in american politics which is that democracy kinds of makes makes us weaker and less capable of taking the real things that real men should be able to do there's a very gendered masculinist sort of notion behind this real men torture. and democracy makes us sissies. in the middle east we have people shopping their heads off christians we have things that we have never seen before i would bring back waterboarding and that bring back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding. one of the things that we need to consider now it has become quite an issue is how

many of these soldiers who used to participate in these kinds of american techniques are now policemen and immigration officers who manage mexicans and hispanics and other sorts of things in interrogations today there's already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques including freezing room was. sleep deprivation all these things are now being used on on on immigrants and children so this is one of the terrible things about techniques is that they circulate between war and home and whatever you do in war comes home. 'd 'd torture mean 'd then we can feel that the thing that's being done to protect us

isn't really so bad we have become used to the idea that it is a legitimate moral stance that we do anything we need to in order to feel safe to feel secure and in a bizarre way it's as if the government is trying to make a deal with us you let us do whatever we want over here on the dark side and in return i promise you will never die it's like this fake promise of immortality. but of course we're. 'd 'd on the history of the american empire as well. and 50 years from now ron's might have to say as french historians have said about france and algeria that that something was lost in the us embrace supporter of moral authority that made america war that a sucker fuzzed for this the shimmer of effect of interrogation.

on. vaccinations against the pandemic it's a race against time to. notice the good of the business with the virus for. whom will get the coveted vaccination doses the rich industrial nations already have a plan of what is the situation in india and africa. made in germany. 30 minutes d.w. . conflict zone opposition parties in pakistan have been upping the pressure on

prime minister emraan khan in a series of recent mass protests they say that he is a puppet of the military and has mismanaged the economy as inflation spiral my guest this week from islamabad is follow why choudhary pakistani minister for science and technology but hasn't started to achieve who's calling the shots in pakistan conflicts on the field 90 minutes. they were forced into a nameless mess. their bodies are to be. the history of the slave trade is africa's history. describes how the greeks for power

and profit plummeted an entire continent into chaos and violence. this is the journey back into the district of slavery. our documentary series slavery routes starts march 10th on g.w. . this is d.w. news and these are our top stories in a landmark case a german court has found a former syrian secret service agent guilty of being involved in crimes against humanity he's been sentenced to 4 and a half years in prison in the 1st trial of its kind was charged as an accomplice in the torture of syrian opposition activists in 2011. gonna has received the world's 1st deliver.