this is doctrine of psychological torture that the developed through research in the deck of the 1950 s. and was codified in the khobar counterintelligence interrogation manual. has 2 basic techniques so much all the rest of the procedures to run one is censored deprivation and the other is self inflicted pain. the cia trained allied agencies in the techniques so in effect you know knowing about dissemination about if you just send these techniques to other armies could you take an ordinary individual like a draftee or recruit and make

a person become an affective interrogator. and it seems that milgram so experiment was like in part of this project. when i learned of incidents such as the destruction of millions of men and women and children perpetrated by the nazis in world war 2 i was a possible ask myself that ordinary people will courteous and decent in everyday life and act callously and you mainly without any limitations of conscience. under what conditions would a person obey authority who commanded actions that went against conscience these are exactly the questions that i want to investigated yeah university. at the moment sperm a very simply was similar to torture this was one not all the research we've been describing is the impact of interrogation upon the subject. had another agenda the

impact of interrogation on the interrogator if he were going to get a wrong answer he would say it wrong then tell him the number of balls you're going to get and. then give him the punishment. then read the correct word pair once he got in the ordinary people who fit by all the regular scales very normal americans and then he subjected them under false color to just doing what he called an educational experiment try to encourage people to apply ever higher voltages as a false patient kept on getting making mistakes here but. in fact milgram was able to encourage at least in his 1st experiments i think close to 70 percent to go on to apply highly dangerous and sometimes fatal shocks i'm not going to get that message at that. when he's not i mean that. you

know what i mean i mean time i learned likes it or not we must go on until one of our little 5 refused to take the responsibility again i heard that. we need under our. international essential if you continue teaching this to money life here and i mean gigo you get round you just to let him watch. i mean i'm going to take responsibility for it and they have is that i don't know i'm responsible for anything that happens here continue. next of slow. dance. music answer please. i'm 95 all. dance. he did this simply with a very simple thing putting the person behind a wall and having a person with

a white lab coat telling them that they needed to continue very ordinary people can be influenced by situations and it's one of the implications of both the milgram experiment the zimbardo it's. the stanford prison experiment it was i think a unique attempt to answer that question of what makes some people behave in a good way but what makes some people behave in a bad way and so the idea was. let's. let's find an evil place and present everywhere in the world the evil places and let's fill this evil place was only good people. to get the students involved i had convinced the palo alto police department to make

a mock arrest of all the students who were going to be president. and then they came down to the basement of stanford psychology department the place where the prison study was done. the idea is prison is made to feel inferior insignificant worthless the most important thing is to take away the name they become a number and of course given they have smocks it with no underpants they're behind a showing. my 1st hour in there it was humiliating was also abrupt was quick it was just you know take them off put this on and then i got dusted with baking soda which was supposed to be easy to delouse or. i was living in the cell.

what the zimbardo did was a very cheap doc off of. the kind of thing that milgram was doing nunnally zimbardo. i think you know the guard called john wayne believed that ethics don't matter if the environment is are the sissel and that's not true all life is real life it's. we needed to get tougher with the prisoners. and it could well be that we were instructed by the experimenters to get tough in fact i don't think we considered ourselves to be a subject of the experiment we were merely a tool of the researchers to get the results they wanted from the real subjects which we thought were the prisoners and i decided to become the nastiest prison guard that i could make myself where i am wilder than ok i am sitting here it is

funny or you want to leave and i. will yeah off yeah brought them to him. and then you would use my. magic with. 345 and. i was responsible for coming up with all of these routines that i would put the prisoners through where i'd have them stand in a line recites their numbers do pushups do jumping jacks. and i had never once stopped to think that these prisoners were suffering any harm or any damage were not or not beating anybody were just sort of applying psychological pressure on them come on yeah. they're all there in harmony. i didn't. does it are just a thing that

a moment people can be like and yet and let me in on some knowledge that i've never experienced 1st hand i've read about it i've read a lot about it but i've never experienced it firsthand i've never seen someone turn that way and i know you're a nice guy you know well you and just what would you have. i don't know it might play out spectacularly in the military so the connections would be much further down the road it would be particularly. in the iraq war and in the setting up of get mo and all that. and by the time you get to 2001 it's already this cultural artifact and so it is going to be picked up by. by anyone for any permanent.

kind of people hell before economies are not there because they stole a car. they're not common from us. they're enemy combatants and terrorists who are being detained for acts of war against our country and that is why different rules have to play. and i do. the continuity this extraordinary. if you look at a sketch of the cubicle and of the student volunteer at mcgill university and then

if you look forward to 2002 when the 1st al qaeda suspects are being confined at camp x.-ray at montana most of us there and goggles gloves and air most of the book. god just like that 957 sketch. after 911 all of us working at ph our realized that the. with very likely be a huge problem of interrogation gone wild meaning torture cruel inhuman and degrading to treatment. the use of extreme isolation it was one of

a range of techniques that were employed by a fish oils interrogators and so forth literally starting all the way back in 2002 for many many days and that is just unbelievably destructive. and they began confining people on tunnel they moved to. having psychologists do in it is with patients as cover and additional flaws individual sources of trauma and security and then they they also discovered because they were down then and with

muslims. muslim males are. upset by nudity and also by female physical content and then fear of don't. race has always played a role in american torture it's the american torture techniques are part of old military punishments and punishments that were used on slaves. and. and you might find that strange but there was one area where slaves were never whipped but used. clean techniques on them so they didn't leave marks and that was if you're going to sell a slave because a slave that had wit marks means that they were not going to obey and so a clean slave was so got a higher price. the

cotton industry in the southern delta states of the united states depended completely on torture. over the course of 4 decades human beings by using their bodies as a technological form as a technological machine were able to multiply by 8 times the amount of cotton an individual person could pick in a single day so the use of torture is absolutely tied at the moment from the very canny. to these kinds of cases. many people in the system. of the people who are imposing these conditions believe that

ordinary punishment is too good for these people and a lot of it is about the other disorders that religiously ethnically. nationally culturally it's easier than it would be to sub would from your own community to do that. so. in guantanamo. as secretary defense rumsfeld appointed a commander jeffrey miller whose job it was to extract information and geoffrey miller made up a cd or staffed it and it flew to iraq and under the. with the permission of the commander there general sanchez the then comprende training sessions for the interrogators and the stuff at abu ghraib

prison where he transmitted the guantanamo and techniques to the abu ghraib stuff basically the restraints were removed and they were told to get results the thing that became so clear is that what the united states was doing was not a secret it was hidden in plain sight it wasn't really until the photographs from abu ghraib were released which were just you know the tip of the iceberg of what was actually happening that people in this country began actually talking about it. but we didn't know where it was exactly the right thing to do and if i had it to my command all over again and i think he said then i'd see course of action. that we did exactly the right.

service in the most. not all of them i can look into whether one does 1600 of them we've only seen up in about 20. maybe 31600 and they say the worst ones are are the ones we haven't seen

so in yes they were violating. military regulations and what they were doing but. they were operating within a system in which they were condition or structured in order to violate those laws when you arrived at the brave where you aware of what happened there. almost immediately after we arrived we were briefed that there was misconduct but we weren't given details and the interrogators that i knew who had been there during that time didn't they didn't talk about it so we we didn't know if i learned everything through the news. we understood the geneva conventions to mean that

absolutely you know you knew you couldn't you couldn't harm anybody in your care that your primary responsibility was there will be. rather than putting you in distress but then we were confused and then of you know of course we got these memos from the justice department and from the pentagon. authorizing the use of much more harsh techniques. we started docking those techniques when i was stationed in mosul among them were stress positions sleep deprivation. inducing hypothermia. to stay and in any way we could put them in in distress using dogs. this is this is a small so-called slippery slope so take the gloves off policy allowed american interrogators from going from

a certain list of techniques that were let's say allowed and even those who are already torture to doing extreme things rape and sodomy and you know the most extreme forms of physical and psychological point tally. you can just torture somebody on a whim without knowing how to do it and the reality of course is that torture like any physical skill right requires training requires practice it requires an institutional setting a built environment really you need to have this institutionalized spates physical space in which you can perform torture we want you know we we want to be successful i was against the war i've been a liberal i didn't vote for george bush. but i wanted to do my job well you know i

felt like you know if i can be successful and get intelligence from these people then we could end the war quickly and it would be better for iraq better for for us and the people. in recent days is going to focus a few. betrayed our values and soul into the future. of our country. with 6 or 7 investigations underway. military justice system that has value. we know that those. who are there are got to justice.

i was angry at our leadership because i knew that they were prosecuting interrogators and guards and leadership wasn't being held accountable i. was disappointed in myself and. a reliever over there was terrible so i was right i was very angry when the abu ghraib trial happened. i got a call from the lawyer for chip frederick. and he asked me to act as part of the defense team i said well the person that you should really talk to is the sim pargo he ran this experiment in the 1970 s. and the situations at abu ghraib as far as i can tell are those conditions that are also reproduced in the. zimbardo experiments chip frederick he's the man here he was the one who had the idea of putting electrodes on in the hood.

his lawyer said the problem now is the military want to use him in a show trial in baghdad. in abu ghraib not only not a single scene office that went to trial that a single scene officer got the call letter of reprimand in fact in some cases they even got promoted the offices so it's it's the people at the top always take care of the people at the time. when we're still evaluating how we are going to approach the whole issue of interrogations detentions and so forth and i don't believe that anybody has both belong on the other hand i also have a belief that we need to look forward as los as opposed to looking looking backwards.

wolf or will look backward go forward is going to be like backward if you don't do something about what happened in the past nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past and for this among other people i fault president obama essentially he gave everybody dick cheney donald rumsfeld he gave them all a free pass. to it's w. bush they're all going to be rehabilitated they're all going to be treated as great statesman one day i mean they gave president obama a nobel prize for not being george w. bush. the question of course the world dancing around. you know are avoiding is doesn't work as torture work doesn't work people that have information that are part of an underground up or run a terrorist organization a revolution urbanisation accomplished organization whatever organized florham of

collective elements of ip they won't. know. and the people that you pick up that are innocence yes. the tear them to pieces you store them you'll ruin them. i think that a few of the people that passed passed through my hands and interrogated did have intelligence but most of the vast majority of the people that i dealt with were just being picked up because they were males of military age and they were just get swept up and in these raids i don't i don't think torture is always being used as a method to gain information or or confessions it's often just being used out of out of anger and fear. here in the united states we have this picture of torture as something that is done by the lonely person the

lonely the man who does it more in sorrow than in anger because he is absolutely forced to because so many lives depend on it is willing to take the moral stain and the moral pain on him and in order to save all these people there was always this anxiety in american politics which is that democracy kinds of makes makes us weaker and less capable of taking the real things that real men should be able to do there's a very gendered masculinist sort of notion behind this real men torture. and democracy makes the sissies. in the middle east we have people shopping their heads off christians we have things that we have never seen before i would bring back waterboarding and i going back a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding.

one of the things that we need to consider now it has become quite an issue is how many of these soldiers who used to participate in. these kinds of american techniques are not policemen and immigration officers who manage mexicans and hispanics and other sorts of things in interrogations today there's already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques including freezing rooms. and sleep deprivation all these things are now being used on on on immigrants and children so this is one of the terrible things about techniques is that they circulate between war and home and whatever you do in war comes home ready ready ready.

if we keep torture ready. then we can feel that the thing that's being done to protect us isn't really so bad we have become used to the idea that it is a legitimate moral stance that we need to do anything we need to in order to feel safe to feel secure and in a bizarre way it's as if the government is trying to make a deal with us you let us do whatever we want over here on the dark side and in return i promise you will never die it's like this fake promise of immortality. but of course we could die 'd and history the american empire is written 50 years from now historians might have to say as french restaurants have said about france and algeria. that something was lost in the us or true moral authority that made america war leader sacrificed for this this shoma of effect of interrogation.

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