fighters are back africa's most successful in radio drama series continues this season the stories focus on hate speech prevention and sustainable truckle production. all of a sow's are available online and of course you can share and discuss on africa's facebook page and other social media platforms. crime fighters tune in now. joe biden is taking a huge risk the new u.s. president is making reform of america's now day to day me gratian system one of his key policy goals critics though say any hint of a more humane approach will only trigger a new surge of immigrants heading for america's southern border meanwhile the e.u. is taking a tougher approach one that observers say amounts to keeping migrants out of europe

whatever it costs so on to the point we ask u.s. immigration reform biden's alternative to fortress europe. thanks very much indeed for joining us here on to the point where my guests here in the studio are ana maria of r.s.i. migration expert from costa rica she says what joe biden can learn from europe is that inclusion needs to be a key element of the narrative also with us is alan posner from the german daily developed he thinks if you want right wing wing populist to rule europe all you have to do is open the book also has a very warm welcome to joseph hutchinson u.s. lawyer and activist his opinion biden's ambitious plans are doomed to fail in the anti democratic u.s. senate. but we've got so much to talk about i mean let's begin with you as i said

joe biden has made reform of america's immigration system one of the central plugs of his politics for the food for years to come no are you surprised i'm not surprised because a lot of oregon iced groups from the civil society aggressors are going to say show us made him go to power today and he showed it to them many of them were going to facial. organizing groups which are you know the basis of my grand relations as well so i'm not surprised he owed it to them us part of his narrative throughout the campaign i'm just basically surprised that he started his 1st day with some bishops platen which definitely right now who in the future is absolutely but they were not prepared and they're not prepared and we have seen hadn't been unfolding this in this case that they're not prepared they still plan and they're still working on that. they're not prepared in just a 2nd didn't joseph joseph purchase an immigration is one of the most issues in the

u.s. one of the most divisive issues in the wilderness i think what makes it so polarizing i think unfortunately that we've let right wing populist control the narrative so you know people don't like data or facts anymore when you look at the data immigration is a net positive for pretty much every society you look at wages increase people do better there is more diversification immigrants generally have either the social capital or just the gumption to come in start new businesses so immigration is a net positive but that's like a wonky detail that most people don't understand it's easier to you know resort to this fear and. i want to be very careful to say that i understand the fear right so people are afraid for their security they're afraid for their livelihoods but i think what we need to understand is that people coming to you know i say europe and united states those are the same things. they want they want to be free from that

near and they want to have the same security when i stand here so what we're lacking is the empathy and really the understanding contextually why these people the people who buy the bike the ministration is going to do it so differently one senior official says quote they're going to restore compassion and order to our immigration system correct the divisive inhumane and immoral policies of the last 4 years so it's old well donald trump broke the country so there's just a lot to fix. donald trump broke the country. yeah i would i would agree though looking at the numbers of immigration i mean what we're talking about actually didn't go down as much as donald trump promised they would go down so i mean he the worst thing about trump was his rhetorics right and and in many ways he was just continuing what the obama administration sought it i mean fence building that wasn't his invention right obama started that and so by this

change the rhetoric right. but how much to really change remains to be seen and what biden saying now is word for word what the european union has been saying all along and you know if you listen to fonda lion or anyone commission president they will you know they'll sign on the dotted line of what on what biden's just said so the question is really what actually happens and it remains for any government they have to control the borders and control who comes in who stays out. of what you referred to already has been by news change the rhetoric we're going to ease the scene you could say to tone this you know might be one way of. describing it but it has meant there has been a suit towards the board who absolutely and i agree with you i mean sometimes i mean the changes needed to happen from an ira to perspective but there's so much to be done for example it's very important we understand of the 1st day when he

entered to the white house he expected orders but there's one executive order regarding the migration protection protocol which was set by trump he said we're going to review it you have never said we're going to change it. and chile what i am very concerned because actually in 2 days ago even in the press briefing we heard that they were going to. which is the new chief in come on who's going to take care of their for these issues exactly so. it makes me feel like they're still not aligned with what they're going to say what is the plan what's going to be the what's going to be the plan what's going to be the actions to be unfolding in the thought of the border and we still don't know that so yeah and critics say the this is you know there's a pandemic on this is not the time to be revamping the system or tweaking the system would you say this is exactly the time so i would disagree that there's now

a surge because he's in office i think there's this natural pressure that pushes people to the united states especially in light of the pandemic what we've realized and you know i'm frankly shocked the united states with their vaccination campaign is doing so well or realizing as you need quick decisive action to impressed i'm impressed you're. so interested in a few years you just mentioned jackson it is the jacobson who the woman who's responsible for the biden policies who own the southern border yeah she said what we're trying to do is walk the walk and chew gum at the same time that we're trying to be sort of kind of friendly but saying to people stay away from the border. for probably not i mean. as you say people are coming. for reasons which are beyond the control of the u.s. government i mean terrible situation venezuela due to the mismanagement of the socialist government there the situation in central america due to again lots of

corrupt governments there and gangsterism the situation even in mexico due to the drug cartels i mean they killed like something like 10000 people in last year these are all things that biden khan can't control so i would do would agree that people are going to come whatever he says and that's when i think and i say that they're not prepared because when when you have a narrative that is unifying and telling people that you're going to fix the immigration laws and you're going to not being open borders because it has never been out if but you're going to fix what west done in the past you're essentially not comfy there in that when people in central america were the ones waiting in mexico are listening to it with hope so these people it's not like us economic migrants saying like we cannot just wait to go to the embassy before we get to be set to come to europe because of pandemic issues these people are fleeing persecution they are and they are not secured they're there outside with nothing to

eat so you cannot tell these people to stay away and wait hold on until we fix something or we create a plan for you so then why the urgency why not seen the narrative from the beginning and promise in people with a lot of hope because you know my point in recent years tens of thousands of people from central america and mexico have tried to make their way into the u.s. many ending up stranded in refugee camps along the border so the truth of billy strayhorn trying to close the border all together now and leadership is slowly beginning to change. they come from honduras venezuela and lots of fleeing violence and poverty in their homeland for years many have lived in camps like this in mexico on the border to the. dream destination the u.s. with biden hope and movement every turning to a stalled situation valentijn like sister norma companies small groups across the border. now there is a possibility for a person who is politically persecuted and who fears for their life to have their

case reconsidered. and that also means crossing on to american soil where there is just to buy aid organizations meanwhile more families are coming attracted by the prospect of fair treatment but the application process is long. while the u.s. needs migrants its labor force whether these people will receive asylum or residency is far from certain will refugees soon have a chance to stay in the u.s. under by don't. you post the response to seeing those petitions well i mean i'm from central america this is. important feeling that creates. tell us how it is totally and and the thing is yes it will exist and yes they will reform i trust and i believe that this is what is going to happen because i can have so much faith and so much respect towards the organization and grass organization that has pushed this further in the united

states so it will eventually happen it just takes so much time and in the meantime for example the kids that are still waiting in the tension centers they call it in a spanish. which is free source you know and so i just want to insist on this in the meantime all basis fixed is the life of humans and it's still in these attentional centers. joseph is an activist i just wonder i saw a sentence this week which and thought was going to interesting because it seems to me to describe a balance in the situation that is a cruel or perhaps a realistic one the sentence goes like this to let some people you need to keep many of those. if you see it as there's only so much pie and if i have less high then i'm losing so what we need we need to come to realize that we have the resources to take care of everyone and everyone in the whole way

everyone in the whole wide world because we have nowhere else to go if we don't take care of everyone in the whole wide world what are we doing and why are we doing it so we're trapped in this mindset of you know these my little nation state guarding my little resource and i can't do it but we have the technology to understand technology now technology flows across borders we have the capacity to track people moving across borders we don't need we we can have these open borders in europe because we have the ability to track people as they're moving across if we can send goods and services and capital across borders why can't we afford the same to people it's an attractive vision yet and i don't think the technology is the problem right we we can of course we can track people where they go data protection laws in europe say you can't we even that problem with our covert vaccine tracking device on our mobile phones of people which you know people don't have to have unlike in shall we say china where they're forced to. and i

for one i'm in favor of as much individual freedom as possible in europe is not a fortress by the way it is an island of freedom in a sea of unfreedom and i don't want to have to restrict that for instance with the technological devices you're talking about tracking everybody where they going i would prefer to be able to go across to france or to poland tomorrow and nobody knows i'm there and nobody cares and i can do you know unless i start using my credit card or could go online and then and then facebook or whatever no no no you know knows who i am but you know the government isn't following what i'm doing and it's this freedom that i want to protect and i have to balance that against letting in a whole you know i mean how many people can you let in and still keep this freedom it sounds like i'm defending

a privilege and i am i'm defending the privilege of freedom. and i'm very sorry but if the alternative is a litte everyone in have them in a mosque and see where they're going then no thank you i'd rather not have that george orwellian state i'd rather have the situation we have now. i think if this is happening. and i don't react to mentally what i like about what you said if that why are we using this technology in the wrong hands so let me refrain that migration is our business. and not for the right purposes. it's a business because technology. companies with an industry even face recognition it's venus in the way of creation for what we know about frontex perhaps we'll talk about that later so my point is there is a control organ exactly there's a billions invested there's billions of money being invested which basically

essentially enables the right wing in a very conservative narrative to continue and controlling us so that will eventually happen and technology it's already been deployed but for duran direction when when we talk about migrants and i want to pick up something that you said the problem of fox not the beam. taking into account anymore which is a big problem is that we are not seeing that my rest contribute way more than what for example europe is a spending in controlling them but since we don't care about data then that's when technology in this company has to spend much more money in making their business themselves. i'm so glad you pointed out the facial recognition technology so the world where you could travel to paris or rome and no one knew where you were that's gone the moment you're at a train station the moment you're at an airport these major hubs of transportation

and we need that in the fight against terrorism so on the one hand we understand that we need this in the fight against terrorism but we don't understand that we could be using it to have much more humane borders ok can i just move away from the debates about technology migration is also about it's about politics it's about economics it's about culture tell me a little bit about that so that's where i think you know in the united states we really see ourselves as a nation of immigrants it would be better if we also sort of selves as a nation of colonial conquest but i think we're kind of slowly getting there as the generation shifts in the nation very troubled by racism as world europeans can learn so much about you know constructive policy on racism from america. at a very. troubled by what we see and hear right so i think of the issue with europe is europe still has this concept of itself you know these nation states these ethnicities i'm french i'm german we're white french were white german without

understanding that the concept of europe historically was more around the mediterranean so you have people on the mediterranean now who are no longer considered european but historically and when it culture were so the issue is where do you start looking right and i think european culture right now has been stuck since the age of conquest and exploration. go on. to say what you. bring i just want to add more because how much you're pm and i don't i would like to hear from from from one from europe what do you think about this because i from my ranch perspective point of view when i came here 2015 and then i think all these welcoming narrative and all the narratives that you know i think. happening now in the united states. diplomatic super correct when you refer to my friends and yet you see. much has been advanced. so. ok europe and most people in the tacitly at least 2 or so have

agreed to look the other way while official agencies do the dirty work of keeping immigrants out of the continent to the. cries for help from refugees off the greek coast there are inflatable boats constantly being attacked by moscow assailants unfriended on. both european border agency from texas as well as the greek government deny that such a legal action is taking place but there is video footage to prove it. in the southern mediterranean meanwhile funded libyan militias are threatening rescuers like see i. am all refugees and now taking the dangerous route toward the canary islands from most this is the end of the line. the situation is even worse in the balkans in the. refugee one time

and most want to move on quickly to the e.u. . because. he. is the e.u. keeping out refugees at all costs. and there are people i can see you citizens are prepared to look the other way was not occurring. just now we're all we willing to look away while the dirty work is done for us. your your your your film was very. biased the fact is these things happen and they shouldn't happen that's all and yes they get among other things they don't get the the attention they deserve that must happen the same time what your film didn't say is that hundreds of thousands make it to europe every year

they are processed in a not in orderly fashion about 90 percent of them apply for asylum and they don't get it because you know and then they go to a court and 30 percent of the decisions against them by then reversed by the court this is means that things are working in in europe and also talking about frontex basically frontex has saved since its inception run about 26. hundreds of thousands of people right fish them out of the war to save them from from people smugglers fought against pirates and that kind of thing and. i think it's a mixed bag right but if you hear the other side of the argument. before we heard it in the film didn't we i mean the fact is we are and i just want to say one thing if you had been as long and i mean when i came to germany in the sixty's but as an

as an english speaking migrant i was fitted like you know. you know and at that time no one could imagine that would we today we have something like the welcome culture i mean we've we aren't we haven't understood that we're a nation of immigrants the way united states has since at least john of kennedy so it's been you know. obviously it's going to take some time before that seeps down into i mean you have to hand it to the germans with. something like 2015 would have been unimaginable only 10 years before. its word came to a certain extent and yes there is how much more welcoming culture than before i said 15 when i arrived here and i was impressed enough never seen anything like that from a human rights perspective such a welcoming back to to me the tears mainly germans for europeans welcoming asylum seekers yet the problem is that it got stuck somewhere between

20162017 we know what happened politically speaking in places like germany. but this was the fear and panic that joe talked about you said you understand the fear that people feel and think that you're referring to the same things or yes exactly people saw too many people flooding into the country and afraid and it created an entire opposition which was there that active but now it's very active and it's very out there so the problem with with what's happening afterwards is like 15 my so these hope when i saw these welcoming back to it but somehow it's been changing a lot over the last years and there is desperation we still have how many people more than 30000 people are still stuck in greece with no hope so for what's going to happen with them many of them actually 4000 of them are young people of school so whether they continue or they just left send them home is just that we need to make it soon and regarding front if i just cannot say anything good about these

unfortunately i mean i work with organizations that are right now in the in the birch to be criminalized for 20 years and sentences for saving lives and only it's just it's just very powerless how it feels to really express how people are feeling out there so it's not about me or what i do anymore i mean even their going to say shows that i was running now i can't get over to younger generations because i have hope in the same way that it's happening in the united states with young people changing and working tirelessly to tiredness to change the system that it will happen here as well wouldn't be in the hands of many of us i would lead to the younger generations that they decide what was the future they want to have. you run forward as though you are. one of the big differences between the united states and europe is the neighborhood. you do not have among the hundreds of thousands going north to the united states. a percentage of terrorists we do our neighborhood

is syria with. people coming to the guy in the in the film coming from pakistan state sponsor of terrorism right i'm not saying he's a terrorist but amongst those coming from pakistan from iraq from syria even from morocco across from libya there is a presence of terrorism they have to be screened out and and from texas doing a very good job with that and the reason why there is a problem with some of these activities the works in france is that they don't do it in a good way and that's one of the problems why there is this these illegal boats coming from from from turkey and landing in greece is when they get on board we don't know where they're going so it's i'm sorry but we have to deal with realities we're not living in an island we're living in a very. dangerous neighborhood we used to think it's only israel right when they

said on able to stay now we've realized i mean i think we realized that in fact ok europe is not the old europe of the greeks around the mediterranean because half of that is occupied by. the and yet to conflate terrorism with immigration. i mean you know the issue that we have is homegrown terrorism so to speak right so keeping people out is not going to keep us safe and that's what we have to understand i definitely agree we need to be screening people but we need to be screening people by either letting them reach our shores or going to where they are . runners or tell him i'm referring to some in the caribbean right great guests here would be looking at immigration policy on either side of the atlantic joe biden's new administration policy if we continue to food for thought and i trust we have come by next time around until the end but by inches.

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