places in terms of their power trajectories. our title and much of the media reporting about this new harsh rhetoric does lump together china and russia but the fact is russia is a declining power and china is absolutely a rising one what impact do you think that would have in terms of the response that we're likely to see from china for example i think. i think what we're going to see used to china and russia it's going to be close it's pushing them closer together that china and russia they are already cooperating in different things like they have weapons they trade weapons and. they already have that kind of relationship and i think with the harsh rhetoric from the u.s. and with the west it's going to push them closer together even if that's that might be just some lake but it's just gives them the chance to

send closer together to one thing that both countries also very much share is insistence that other powers including multilateral institutions like the united nations have no right to meddle in their internal affairs is that what biden essentially is doing here and are these countries abuses of human rights ultimately are nearly impossible to influence from the. question is how strong is the language i mean the reaction that we just saw from vladimir putin to what biden said was quite telling because they know each other because biden was in the white house obama was president barack obama was president when the crimean was next and when the war in ukraine starts and things like this so it was condemned for the time as well berg obama in the backyard was. morally and so on and so on so. who knows some very well knows what he thinks about those

words and wishing him health. i mean he's he's clearly appealing to his old age and things like that so it is kind of a very self sort of reaction to what. matthew there been a lot of rounds of sanctions in the past. now the u.s. is imposing yet another round on russia but frankly so far neither harsh rhetoric nor sanctions appear to have really had any influence on russia's behavior why should things be any different now. well again i you know that might not be different in terms of russia's behavior it might be different however in terms of showing the rest of the world that what russia is doing or what china is doing is not in order and there needs to be some kind of reaction to it and i think that public opinion is very important in these questions and it does hit obviously

the individuals against whom sanctions are targeted. but sanctions also give you a negotiating chip later on as the people forget there's never a very very rarely a case where a country like the united states imposes sanctions on another country and then the other country just sort of you know gives up whatever it's doing but what it does do is that later on in the go she asians we've seen this with russia by removing the sanctions gets you in the negotiation and. allows you to convince them to do something that you don't want them to do so i think that's that's how i would look at it it is not the silver bullet by any means let's talk a little bit about where europe is in all of this biden in fact has repeatedly pared his motto that the u.s. is back with the vow to work together with america's european allies and indeed earlier this week the e.u. joined the us britain and canada in imposing sanctions against china for the 1st

time in 30 years. as recently as december the e.u. signed a new investment agreement with china to the dismay of the united states now it has sanction in the country for human rights violations against the muslim minority independent human rights organizations estimate that 100000 other muslims have been detained and mistreated in camps and. for a long time the e.u.'s top priority was trade with beijing now following the example of the us brussels is also playing hardball. we have taking this. response who will for human rights. in 6 countries. china north korea south. korea and russia.

for their role in prosecuting l g b t plus people brussels is stepping up sanctions against russian officials most recently the e.u. impose sanctions on russia over the poisoning of now imprisoned kremlin opponents. by imposing sanctions the u.s. and the european union are slowly tightening the screws. but how much further is europe really willing to go. let me put that question to motor mount in your opening statement you said that none of the 3 powers russia china or the u.s. has a real interest in escalation but the fact is that is a very much a european perspective europe in general and germany in particular have repeatedly made it clear that they are very concerned about being forced to essentially take sides in a us china cold war. and possibly also with us hostility

versus. russia do you think that's what's happening here is the e.u. now with these latest sanctions against china essentially being forced to take sides. in a way yes and. i always say if it's through through partnerships or through nato or through other institutions there's always a very strong link between european union and the united states and it's. even if it's for the security of your of bowing to real still relying on the american nuclear umbrella for that so there is and we are democracies that binds us together we share the same values the question is the threat of escalation we have the experience from the cold war we're always afraid about escalating things. all 3 countries a member of the united nations security council all 3 are nuclear powers so there's

never a military solution for any kind of conflict so i think that sanctions became just another tool of international diplomacy doesn't really hurt a country functions very well with one exception to south africa. but all other countries like from sudan through libya through all of those never never does it will not bring the chinese communist party to to collapse let me ask them swear that she agrees with that and it is their joint action on the part of the u.s. and europe that could influence chimes behavior and i do agree that the sanctions are largely symbolic because it was just against a few people which won't bring much in fact really but i think that the action itself the symbolic action itself it's a big step because for europe it has it was so reluctant to actually take any stance and as you've already said it's the 1st time in 30 years and i think that's

a big and i think that's a big step it's a big decision for them to take and in terms of and to answer your question if that's going to change china's behavior i don't think the sanctions can change china's big. to be honest but if the u.s. continues this course and to come and if they can connect the western powers to get less in power together and people who have the same country sorry who have which have the same believes and combine that economic power together i think that's going to have an effect. let's say china united states and europe on the other hand europe is the weakest link so there is a temptation for the chinese to say if you want to kind of battle we go for the weakest link not for the strong competitor you. know if you how far do you think europe will be willing to go particularly with that awareness of how dependent it

is on the on china's market well i think germany is very dependent on the chinese market the rest of europe is not as dependent on chinese market china is the largest trading partner now for the e.u. i believe although it's mainly because they export so much from china they're not selling as much to china as they are to united states for example united states is more important export market for europe as a whole so europe is as martin said very reliant on the u.s. in various ways especially for its security i think that the fact that it is kind of come around on china is more a sign that they're accepting the reality as it is and that's why things like the sanctions i would argue are important because it creates moral clarity and i think as recently as december when the e.u. was doing this investment deal with china there was a feeling of well the chinese you know they're not nice to the leaders but you know they're they're also you know the americans are nice to certain people too and

there's sort of bad things going on everywhere which is you know kind of a kind of justification i think in a lot of europeans minds for continuing on the previous course that has gone out the window now so you can see that biden's a pro. well the pressure that lincoln is is exerting behind the pressure is already having an effect very briefly almost out of time but quickly from you and also from north stream bringing it back to russia is it time if we're talking about serious pressure and working together with the u.s. for germany to put the gas pipeline north stream that essentially is a deal with russia to rest i think it is i don't think germany will do it because it has to do it for so long not to germany it is. strange because they got rid of nuclear power and coal powered so that if this gas is the only thing that's left to fulfill his needs and a choice so it's not going to happen there. thank you very much to all of you for

being with us here today and thanks to all of you out there for tuning in see you soon. for.

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