again. you know people all over the world are committed to climate protection. what will it. be because change doesn't happen on its own. make up your own mind it. w. for minds. germany has it seems accepted that it must return priceless works of art saluted and stolen during colonial times most spectacularly all thora teams here in berlin have now agreed to hand back to nigeria at least a share of a huge collection of plundered artifacts known as the ben and bronze is it's been called a churning point in germany's approach to its colonial history so on to the point we ask africa's stolen treasures is it time to give them back.

or thanks very much indeed for joining us here on the show and with me in the studio many a concert rule i'm bordereau from the campaign group burley in postcolonial who says more important than the return of cultural artifacts is the return of the remains of our ancestors also with us is professor donald ventura so big jane and dick own he's a comer room born curator and educator who believes it is no secret that colonialism incent all its forms a crime against humanity. and a warm welcome to sue the claims of m for apologist corona lenz who joins us on the line from bines the western german city she's at the. time president of germany's

goods institute and she argues that the long overdue return of artifacts from the colonial period is also an opportunity for cultural exchange between germany in europe and the countries of origin. of so. many occurred let's begin with you if i may a figure expert say this at least 80 percent of africa's cultural heritage is housed in european museums a lot of it simply gathering dust it seems shocking to me how does it seem to you it is it is also shocking. to me and believe me i have been. been did this for quite a long time demanded is. that in the long period where you have been to face what has changed in the battle you have. changed bet you 5 in the

last 5 years at least we common talk kind of negotiating to give you not to really but what. surprised me it is way ahead today jim and has decided to give. the band the bronze back that was the feeling you had a good here was a possible big leap forward in the making yes for me i see this is a step. coming to a process of healing because if we heal the wound so which we have and are so it is an aspiration of all the facts to be the time and back to africa.

is there i thought yes my ancestors remains which housed in museums in clinics in universities all over here in germany where you be a time back i guess 8 i prayed for that. i see as as touch ok fascinating words thank you very much for sharing that with here and let's go to carol and sin mines carla the german foreign minister has come us reflecting what we've just been hearing ses the return of the betting bronzes represents a turning point in germany's approach to its colonial history is he right. i would say it's a culmination of a long process that has been ongoing with lots of actors one important group is exactly people like missed them borro who are in the diaspora and who have been

raising their voice and voicing their concerns which is very important for germans to listen to the 2nd group is the museum people of course then scholars and then finally politicians and i think that now we are. have a sting the fruits of a long process of negotiation but it is also a new paradigm and when you say in a loan process of negotiation why has it taken so long. because it has a lot of actors on each side in germany you don't have the central state as the proprietor or owner of the object but the local would just lend and you have even cities who are in charge of museums on the other hand in african countries or in other former colonies too you have various actors at play you have the nigerian central state you have the. nigerian federal state sorry the federal state is the central state always get mixed up with the terminology

sorry about that and you have the king and now they have formed a legacy restoration trust which brings all these actors together and that has really given a big push together with the so-called been in group which comprises people from austria from great britain from germany and other countries from the netherlands in belgium so i think that is take no time behind the scenes it wasn't so visible perhaps but now it's not and i'm very happy that it is a big leap forward so it's out your happy armed people are talking about it on a ventura de congo about a dialogue of equals is that possible of dialogue of equals in this post-colonial context. at least we're striving towards that and i think the other thing would be you know problematic we have to speak to each other we have to find common ground and when we find the common ground we have to speak as equals you know we have to dismantle their symmetries that exists to be able to speak as he calls you know the

power gradients that have been put in place by the colonial enterprise have to be dismantled and we're all working towards that and i want to say thank you to people on board for and in all the other activities that have been going on the streets you know for decades you know advocating for the restitution repatriation of some of this so-called objects you know so we have to create possible. of course coming together. roland rightly mentioned that people have been working in the background with all these different groups but we have to bring this thing to the foreground and i think this is what is happening at the moment you know it's coming to the fore but this is just the beginning it's the beginning of much more the has to be done you know much more have to be sent back much more communication has to be done and i insist on the fact that he has to be done on an equivocal we you know the

so-called. you know german people people discussing what i need to discuss as equals yes. i think if you're talking about the extent to which progress is or not being made or not being made and how optimistic we can afford to be or not for me it was a fascinating and wonderful moment this morning when i read my daily newspaper here in berlin it had a headline nigeria praises germany. seems to believe that germany's getting something right here well fair enough nigeria should praise germany because something has been done but again that is the beginning and i have to say we we have to complicate the conversation a bit more nigeria germany doesn't suffice you know we have to speak to some of the people to this so-called actually belong you know and that is why i want the 2 priests germany you know the king the representative of the people of been in

should place then i know something is going on right i want the people on the street in been in despite the multiplicity of opinions to acknowledge to see that something is happening and for that to happen they have to be able to go back to the palace of the and see the been in bronzes their. your thoughts on matthew i'm not sure of nigeria praising germany but perhaps you know as well where do we go next from you know praise is good promises have been made but what happens next was happens next even i must in myself what it really. does to ticks cheeta one more year we each i don't understand it but it does leave they now yeah via brazen. money for doing that ows just think about. free a fickle was

a given that as far as i know nigeria was under british colony it was not on budget money call an honor and when they themselves because the objects we had looted by british and not by jim and jim us but from the british i don't know how the egg even them back of course in thinking that way they need a perris but me myself coming from a contrie which was cool and i used by jim once i almost get to know not even a single object has been given back. for jim months anyway or so i praised it easiest. it is if i need to gives me now enough room as face to say hey ho so you did.

back to nigeria what about what about in nigeria what about kameron what he told all these counties where totally and i j man. it was a short period of german colonial rule but it terrible things happened let's just let's just rewind a little bit it just does not feel like a short period of calling you know this and calling it as it was calling out isn't the time you know i think we have to be very precise about this you know the violent it's a violent absolutely ok just a week or so ago where we now know germany actually currently orleans wants to see something but yeah yeah i am trying to make myself heard i just wanted to support and say i think that we need a multilateral european effort to it's not there useful to play one colonial regime against the other and use that as mutual excuses in the worst case so i think that in all these initiatives of coming together and speaking on

equal terms it is important to bring in other colonial powers as well and the methods may have been different but in the end it compounds itself to one colonial tea in the present and then of course the different european countries come. with different perspectives on their colonial past and i think ok germany can be a trendsetter and month some respects but france and britain and portugal etc also have their own ways of doing that with much larger diasporas from their former colonies which changes the terms of debate hugely important points you just be making breakfast for some of our viewers i'd like to just go back to these the agreement that germany has apparently reached now with nigeria to return at least a share of plundered artifacts known as the bend in bronze if we don't know how many let's find out 1st of all though a little bit more about these works of art before talking about the damage done to

africa by european colonialism. to this day bronze sculpture is still produced in nigeria following accosting method that is over 7 centuries old and unique in africa at the end of the 19th century the german empire patches for over 1000 of these strong statues from english colonialists the artworks were plundered by british forces during a raid on a city in present day nigeria where many german museums are proud of these stolen goods as these valuable exhibits are even listed as you next a world heritage. site decades african art experts and historians have been demanding they be brits and arguing that the bronze is a part of nigerian identity the monk gun the yukon look up the soul of a people these acknowledge a community and the like prisons. good friend news. that the german government has cleared the way for the return of the bronze is to many this has come as

a surprise since and that's what is happening is sensational and that's what's going to be my girl it's a paradigm shift as a person suddenly returning precious objects to africa is no longer a problem at all. can this be germany's chance to redeem itself from its colonial crimes. possibly question can this be germany's chance to redeem itself from its crimes or are you i walked i heard a very strong sentence in that report was these ethnological museums like prisons yes i do would prefer to be you know they are like prisons unfortunately but not only of the souls of people but also of your histories and your knowledge is you know it might serve. you know the europeans to have these so-called objects in there but many of them. you know they have

subjectivity and they were meant to be used and you know in performances in rituals you know so taking this depriving people of this is really it's in some way killing them a slow killing a detailed to realize ition of the people so they don't even know that they lost their bearings you know and i think this is a very important thing so we need to freed them from this presence. i'm surprised a little bit about the the mood of optimism at the moment especially among people sort of insiders especially in germany are saying this is a paradigm shift a big move forward but really we're talking about. a certain number of artifacts will be returned by 2022 of the earliest you know. that doesn't sound very fluffy these these figures that are being bandied around it doesn't

sound like a real change is in the making to me. each sounds it sounds somewhat hollow. where i don't understand the at they just on any given bank they given them on and if it is odd we don't know exactly how many of them where are he dead and so on and when these are heights where he didn't it is amusing that when you present because we have not been allowed to these presents 2 . of even i look at them. yes only those ones which i've been exhibited if they're just on live yet if you i don't know in the ethanol logical museum here a 1000000000 they are out i don't know 5 or something i've backed i don't exactly remember but very few act where i did so called 440

ok let's see we're let's let's listen to a curling tongs to say she wants coming from mines again yes i'm just wanting to put in a few a few distinctions there the one is that i think the property rights for the objects need to be going back to the source communities and then the question is of course within the source communities they have to define of who is the rightful owner is that the central state is the federal state is that the king king's family or is it another community etc etc then those people have the right to determine whether they want some objects in the world to demonstrate their high quality of art of culture of rituals it cetera so that is a question of property rights the 2nd point is i think that the optimism right now is justified because the return of objects is part and the return of property

rights is part of a launch an initiative to. bring in new innovative concepts of museums that trends nationally operate that bring in artists to open up museums to a larger public that make histories of loss and of suffering visible with objects or the absence of objects visible etc and. the good institute has been trying to also promote this in the sense of that african museums among themselves peer to peer learning is enhanced or supported and that their takes place again in exchange with european or german curators so i think when we think of this return as part of a larger presence of thinking. new forms of work in and with museums then it makes sense and is justified. sometimes i feel that the creation of

property rights is really a delay tactics in many of the cases we actually know with the owners are you know the kingdom of been in is represented by being in we could talk to the above been in directly you know door it is part of nigeria which is a construct as we know barely a 100 something years old but the kingdom of benin existed for much longer and is still there we know we're we know where people are we and actually if we really wanted to speak to them we would speak to them you know i go back to the example of . that was sent back to cameroon in 1074 it went to the people of calm and it is dead to can carry off properly and i think you know we have the impression it's a kind of a delay tactic as you know there. it's it's it's actually clear with. something

current can be the case and i agree with mr deacon that has often been done but i do think that the thing is that a museum in berlin or in mines or wherever cannot unilaterally decide to restore something to that because you have the national museums in the area for instance which also says that they have a word in this whole process so what i think brings the process forward now in nigeria is that they have the legacy restoration trust fund where all these nigerians are together in one group and tried to sort out this question of whether to bring them to the palace or whether to show them in the museum which is being constructed and i think the important message i take from you is that it's not up to the european actors to decide on how those sort of problem in nigeria turns on your own kenya thank you i do think you have to accept that the german

cannot give cannot take a decision in saying that ok we don't care what the nigerian say the government says we deal directly with the king family i don't think that would work ok talk about germany germany's ethnological museums are we have we know full of art crammed full of arts and culture from around the world and for a long time the interests of the countries of origin were simply dismissed let's just see some pictures 1st of all. concealment denial and delay for decades this is been the strategy jamming museums have taken towards restitution claims from africa. the most striking example is this well famous bust of mecca t.-t. queen of ancient egypt it was brought to belin illegally by german archaeologists. despite repeated demands for its return. the museum and politicians have refused to even negotiate. ethnological collections in germany counted total of $1500000.00

ounces fox most of them from africa a missing person's documentation of how they got here but most of the out what's been looted all stolen 95 percent of the collection of gathering dust in archives without ever being exhibit it's. what positive exception is the indian museum instead scott in 2019 is iraq to return soon and this with the bible that once belonged to national hero chief hendrik which boy. maybe as president accepted the artifacts in an emotional official ceremony. to african states have the right to demand that goldstone an ounce of facts are returned. that is the big question to the big question then we go back to history when the colonial empire.

they were dealing with communities where we had king said the king's wish it to was as a lead as a contrary and you find. traditional leaders with 2 of them and you we do appreciate today i'm there for you to talk to the central government and to do monday their property back a problem is in this country is they don't know whom they should to do my this objects who here in. gemini and. complicated when it comes to the return of human remains we're trying to weasel specialist area an area that is very very important for you tell us a little bit about it we're short on time i'm sorry for that but i really want to

hear about yes from you from the area for instance where come from kilimanjaro area from kilimanjaro already you're in there kilimanjaro are 30 research council has already gave you mind today jim on the government to return. their human remains how did the objects and when we're talking about the district councils they do belong to the governmental level and the government of duns idea object and if it it is it supports so it probably is we should for. the months so just only because i know people there and kilimanjaro and they're from the same area that's why i would say direct least to this or to this why there isn't a central low here in jamun we. all the museums daily visits and clearly it's follow these kind of low to give back.

ok i. just wanted to. when we talk about a situation we don't talk only about christian optics you talk about decision of dignity and that is a typical keys you know when the people get you know the skeletons by this is certain return of the tick me to have the possibility of burying people with on no return of a no. karoly unmindful do i say one for one final point to sign off for us so next time world where i'll get you guys here in berlin for another round the so much to say and corona will have you here enjoy your so you shall have your folks. just keep up the optimism i think that talking to each other is the most important to the way forward n.p. in respectful and listening to each others' points of view brings us forward thank you very much is the word from the gentlemen here in berlin to thank you very much

for joining us carole linster in the minds. i hope we continue a lot of food for thought and as a satellite so continue the show a 2nd time around that's trying to buy these guys along another day thanks for joining us see you soon i. was. a member of.

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