of subjectivity and they were meant to be used and you know in performances in rituals you know so taking this depriving people of this is really it's in some way killing them a slow killing a detour to realize ition of the people so they don't even know that they've lost their bearings you know and i think this is a very important thing so we need to freed them from this presence. i'm surprised a little bit about the the mood of optimism at the moment especially among people sort of insiders especially in germany are saying this is a paradigm shift a big move forward but really we're talking about. a certain number of artifacts will be returned by 2020 to the earliest you know. that doesn't sound very fluffy these these figures that are being bandied around it doesn't sound like a real change is in the making to me each sound

it sounds somewhat hollow. we're really don't understand the they just on any given bank or they given them. and if we does odd we don't know exactly how many of them where and so on and when they hide somewhere he didn't it is. pretty sad because we have not been allowed to these presents to. of even a look at them. just ordered those ones which i've been exhibited if they're just on live yet if you i don't know if the knowledge of bailing them out i don't know 5 or something at best i don't exactly remember but very few act where i did so called 440 ok let's say well let's listen to occur to say she wants coming

from mines again yes i'm just wanting to put in a few a few distinctions there the one is that i think the property rights for the objects need to be going back to the source communities and then the question is of course within the source communities they have to define of who is the rightful owner is that the central state is the federal state is that the king king's family or is it another community etc etc then those people have the right to determine whether they want some objects in the world to demonstrate their high quality of art of culture of rituals it cetera so that is a question of property rights the 2nd point is i think that the optimism right now is justified because the return of objects is part and the return of property rights is part of

a larger initiative to. bring in new in lover to the concept of museums that trance nationally operate that bring in artists to open up museums to a larger public and that make histories of a lot of suffering visible with objects or the absence of objects visible etc and. the good institute has been trying to also promote this in the sense of that african museums among themselves peer to peer learning is enhanced or supported and that their takes place again in exchange with european or german curators so i think when we think of this return as part of a larger process of thinking. new forms of work in and with museums then it makes sense and is justified. sometimes i feel that the creation of property rights is really

a delay tactics in many of the cases we actually know with the owners are you know the kingdom of been in is represented by bin we could talk to the above been in directly you know all door it is part of nigeria which is a construct as we know barely in a 100 something years old but the kingdom of been in existence for much longer and is still there we know where we know where people are and actually if we really wanted to speak to them we would speak to them you know i go back to the example of the 4 that were sent back to cameroon in 1074 it went to the people of calm and it is there to can carry off properly and i think you know we have the impression it's a kind of a delay tactic as you know there. it's it's it's actually clear what on earth we're missing something kind of can be the case and i agree with mr deacon

that has often been done but i do think that the thing is that museum in berlin or in mines or wherever cannot unilaterally decide to restore something to that because you have the national museums in the area for instance which also says that they have a word in this whole process so what i think brings the process forward now in nigeria is that they have the legacy restoration trust fund where all these nigerians are together in one group and try to sort out this question of whether to bring them to the palace or whether to show them in the museum which is being constructed and i think the important message i take from you is that it's not up to the european actors to decide on a holiday sort of problem in nigeria tanzania and kenya thank you ok but i do think you have to accept that the germans cannot give cannot take a decision in saying that ok we don't care what the nigerian government says we

deal directly with the king family i don't think that would work ok talk about germany germany's ethnological museums are we have we know full of vast crammed full of arts and culture from around the world and for a long time the interests of the countries of origin were simply dismissed let's just see some pictures 1st of all. concealment denial and delay for decades this is been the strategy jamming museums have taken towards restitution claims from africa. the most striking example is that while famous boston equity cheat queen of ancient egypt it was brought to belin illegally by german archaeologists. despite repeated demands for its return. the museum and politicians have refused to even negotiate. ethnological collections in germany counted total of $1500000.00 artifacts most of them from africa. missing persons documentation of

how they got here but most of the out what's were looted all stolen 95 percent of the collections of gathering dust in archives without ever being exhibit it's. one positive exception is the linda museum instead caught in 29000 is directed to chance in a media this with the bible that once belongs to national hero chief tantric which boy. maybe as president accepted the artifacts in an emotional official ceremony. 2 african states have the right to demand that goldstone and consequences are returned. that is the big question the big question then we go back to history when their colonial empire.

they were dealing with their communities where we heard king said the king's wish it to was as a lead as a contrary and you find these so called the traditional leaders was 2 of them and you we do appreciate today i'm there for you to talk to the central government and to do monday their property back a problem is in this country is they don't know who they surely do my this objects who here in. gemini and this. is not complicated when it comes to the return of human remains we're trying to weasel specialist area an area that is very very important for you tell us a little bit about it we're short on time i'm sorry for that but i really want to hear about yes from here from the area for instance where i come from kilimanjaro area

for kilimanjaro region there kilimanjaro are 30 research council has already gave a demand today jim on the government to return whole the human remains the objects and when we're talking about dysart councils they do belong to the governmental level and the government of duns idea object that it is it supports so it probably is a coup we should for. the months just because i know people there. from this same area that's why i would say that it at least to this or to this why there isn't as central low here in jamun we test all the museums daily visits and clinics follow these kind of low

to give back. ok it was just what it's that when we talk about a situation we don't talk only about christian optics we talk about decision of dignity and that is a typical keys you know when the people get you know the skeletons back this is certain return of the dignity to have the possibility of burying people with on no return of a no. carona in mind what do i say one for one final point to sign off for a so next time world where i'll get you guys here in berlin for another round the so much to say and corona will have you here injure yourself yourself out of your souls. just keep up the optimism i think that talking to each other is the most important to the way forward n.p. in respectful and listening to each others' points of view brings us forward thank you very much is the word from the gentleman here in berlin to thank you very much for joining us carole alone syrian mines it's i hope we're giving you

a lot of food for thought and as a satellite so continue to show a 2nd time around restaurant invite these guys along another day thanks for joining us by. putting a. be

in good shape. sometimes it's not easy to get that and doing the things we wish to dave. how can we get into the flood. so with mass that involves craven exercises and positive thinking to help us get things moving. good shape. in 30 minutes on t w. people

in trucks injured when trying to flee the city center a mob more and more refugees are being turned away aboard a. family's monetized seems to. be scripted only we look at us demonstrators. people being extreme groups. coming 200 feet down. the road a bit more than 300 people are seeking a few. minutes in the morning because no one should have to sleep. and make up your own mind. about w.'s. made for mines. imagine how many push home lunch

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this is the news live from growing international calls to waste patents on covert vaccines the us spock's the idea but germany rejects the proposal and sides with the drug development also on the program india consing to catch a break more than 400000 cases for the 2nd straight day aid is getting through but experts fear the crisis will get worse.