can't go to school. please ask why. because education makes the world more just. make up your own life. w. me for mines. germany how's it seems accepted that it must return priceless works of art saluted and stolen during colonial times most spectacularly all thora to use here in berlin have now agreed to hand back to nigeria at least a share of a huge collection of plundered artifacts known as the bending of bronze it is being called a turning point in germany's approach to its colonial history so on to the point we ask africa's stolen treasures is it time to give them back.

well thanks very much indeed for joining us here on the show and with me in the studio. through i'm bored oh from the campaign group berlijn postcolonial who says more important than the return of cultural artifacts is the return of the remains of our ancestors also with us is professor bond the ventura so big jane and . he is a cameroon born curator and educator who believes it is no secret that colonialism is in all its forms a crime against humanity and a warm welcome to sue the claimed and for apologists corona lens who joins us on the line from mines the western german city she's at the same time president of germany's go to institute and she argues that the long overdue return of a. funds from the colonial period is also an opportunity for cultural exchange

between germany europe and the countries of origin. of so. many occurred like to begin with here if i may figure experts say this at least 80 percent of africa's cultural heritage is housed in european museums a lot of it simply gathering dust it seems shocking to me how does it seem to you it is it is also shock. to me and 11 me i have been. been doing this for quite a long time demanded is. that in the long period where you have been non-serious what has changed in the bottle you have. changed bet you 5 in the last 5 years at least we common to kind of

negotiating to give but you know to really but what. surprised me it is when you are headed there jim and has decided to give. the band the bronze back was the feeling you had a good here was a possible big leap forward in the making yes for me i see this is a step. coming to a process of healing because it we'll healed the wound so which we have and oh so it is and as peter ation of all the facts to be returned back to africa and he is there i thought yes my ancestors

remains which are housed in museums in clinics in university is all over here in germany where you be a time and back i dare say i prayed for that. i see as s. touch ok fascinating words thank you very much for sharing that with here and let's go to carol and in mines carla the german foreign minister who come us reflecting what we've just been hearing ses the return of the betting bronzes represents a turning point in germany's approach to its colonial history is he right. i would say it's a culmination of a long process that has been ongoing with lots of actors one important group is exactly people like missed them borel who are in the diaspora and who have been raising their voice and voicing their concerns which is very important for germans to listen to the 2nd group is the museum people of course then scholars and then

finally politicians and i think that now we are. have a sting the fruits of a long process of negotiation but it is also a new paradigm and when you sing alone process of negotiation why has it taken so long. because it has a lot of actors on each side in germany you don't have the central state as the proprietor or owner of the objects but the local would just lend there and you have even cities who are in charge of museums on the other hand in african countries or in other former colonies too you have various actors at play you have the nigerian central state you have the. nigerian federal states sorry the federal state is the central state always get mixed up with the terminology sorry about that and you have the king and now they have formed

a legacy restoration trust which brings all these actors together and that has really given a big push together with the so-called 1000000000 dollar league group which comprises people from austria from great britain from germany and other countries from the netherlands in belgium so i think that has take no time behind the scenes it wasn't so visible perhaps but now it's. i'm very happy that it is a big leap forward so it's out it's your happy armed people are talking about it on a ventura de congo about a dialogue of equals is that possible a dialogue of equals in this post colonial context. least we're striving towards that and i think any other thing would be you know problematic we have to speak to each other we have to find common ground and when we find the common ground we have to speak as equals you know we have to dismantle their symmetries that exists to be able to speak as equals you know the power gradients that have been put in place by

the colonial enterprise have to be dismantled and we're all working towards that and i want to say thank you to people on board and you know and all the other activities that have been going on the streets you know for for decades you know advocating for the restitution repatriation of some of these so-called objects you know so we have to create possibile. of course coming together. roland rightly mentioned that people have been working in the background with all these different groups but we have to bring this thing to the foreground and i think this is what is happening at the moment you know it's coming to the fore but this is just the beginning it's the beginning of much more the has to be done you know much more have to be sent back much more communication has to be done and insist on the fact that he has to be done on an equivocal we you know the so-called. you know german people people discussing what i need to discuss as equals yes.

i think it is you you are talking about the extent to which progress is or not being made or not being made and how optimistic we can afford to be or not for me it was a fascinating and wonderful moment this morning when i read my daily newspaper here in berlin it had a headline nigeria praises germany. seems to believe that germany is getting something right here well fair enough nigeria should praise germany because something has been done but again that is the beginning and i have to say we owe we have to complicate the conversation a bit more nigeria praising germany doesn't suffice you know we have to speak to some of the people to want this so-called actually belong you know and that is why i want the 2 priests germany you know the king the representative of the people of benin should place than i know something is going on right i want the

people on the street in been in despite the multiplicity of opinions to acknowledge to see that something is happening and for that to happen they have to be able to go back to the palace of the and see the building bronzes their. so matthew on the issue of nigeria praising germany but perhaps you know as well where do we go next from you know praise is good promises have been made but what happens next was happens next even i must in myself for a reality it does to take on more ear which i don't understand it but it does date eve day now yeah via praise and jim money for doing that out of just on what i think about. the offical was a divide that as far as i know nigeria was under british colony it was not under

your money in on a and when they themselves because the objects which. by british cannot by jim and jim us but from the british 100 now dag even them back of course in thinking that way they need a perris but me myself coming from a contrary which was cohen ised by jim once i am wants to know not even a single object has been given back but for jim months anyway or so i praised it easiest. it is this i need to gives me now enough for room a space to say hey. you did. back to nigeria what about what about in nigeria what about kameron what you told

bill discounters aware totally and i jamen. there was a short period of german colonial rule but it terrible things happened let's just let's just rewind a little bit just there's nothing like a short period of calling you know this and calling it as it was calling out isn't the time you know i think we have to be very precise about this you know the violent it's a violent absolutely ok just a week or so ago where we now know germany actually currently one wants to see something but yeah yeah i am trying to make myself heard i just wanted to support and say i think that we need a multilateral european effort to it's not there useful to play one colonial regime against the other and use that as mutual excuses in the worst case so i think that in all these initiatives of coming together and speaking on equal terms it is important to bring in other colonial powers as well and the

methods may have been different but in the end it compounds itself to one colonial tea in the present and then of course the different european countries come. with different perspectives on their colonial past and i think ok germany can be a trendsetter in month some respects but france and britain and portugal etc also have their own ways of doing that with much larger diasporas from their former colonies which changes the terms of debate hugely important points you just be making because for some of our viewers i'd like to just go back to these the agreement that germany has apparently reached now with nigeria to return at least a share of plundered artefacts known as the ben in bronze if we don't know how many let's find out 1st of all though a little bit more about these works of art before talking about the damage done to africa by european colonialism. to this day brown's culture is still

produced in nigeria following accosting method that is over 7 centuries old and unique in africa and at the end of the 19th century the german empire had just over 1000 of these drawn statues from english colonialists the artworks were plundered by british forces during a raid on a city in present day nigeria where many german museums are proud of the stolen goods as these valuable exhibits are even listed as you know ask a world heritage. site decades african art experts and historians have been demanding baby brits and arguing that the bronze is a part of nigerian identity. you can look up the soul of a people these after the logical museums are like prisons in the good friend news. that the german government has cleared the way for the return of the bronze is to many this has come as a surprise this is a sense that something is what is happening is sensational and that's why when we

my goal it's a paradigm shift as a person not only returning precious objects to africa is no longer a problem at all. can this be germany's chance to redeem itself from its colonial crimes. possibly question can this be germany's terms to redeem itself from its crimes or are you i walked i heard a very strong sentence in that report was these i thought well to call museums like prisons yes i do would prefer to be you know they are like prisons unfortunately but not only. of the souls of people but also the histories and their knowledge is you know it might serve you know the europeans to have these so-called objects in there but many of them. you know they have subjectivity and they were meant to be used and you know in

performances in rituals you know so taking this depriving people of this is really it's in some way killing them a slow killing a detailed to realize ition of the people so they don't even know that they lost their bearings you know and i think this is a very important thing so we need to freed them from this prisons. i'm surprised a little bit about the the mood of optimism at the moment especially among people sort of insiders especially in germany are saying this is a paradigm shift a big move forward but really we're talking about. a certain number of artifacts will be returned by 2020 to the earliest you know. that doesn't sound very fluffy these these figures that are being bandied around it doesn't sound like a real change is in the making to me. each sound

it sounds somewhat hollow where areally don't understand. they just on any given bank they given them are and if which is odd we don't know exactly how many of them where and so on and when they hide somewhere he didn't it is amusing that where you preserve because we have not been allowed to these presents. of even a look at them. just ordered those ones which i've been exhibited if they're just on live yet if you i don't or in the ethanol logical museum here a 1000000000 there i don't i don't know 5 or something like bet i don't exactly remember but very few picked where i did so called 440

ok let's see where let's 1st listen to occur to say she wants coming from mines again yes i'm just wanting to put in a few a few distinctions there the one is that i think the property rights for the objects need to be going back to the source communities and then the question is of course within the source communities they have to define of who is the rightful owner is that the central state is that the federal state is that the king king's family or is it another community etc etc then those people have the right to determine whether they want some objects in the world to demonstrate their high quality of art of culture of rituals it cetera so that is a question of property rights the 2nd point is i think that the optimism right now is justified because the return of objects is part and the return of property rights is part of

a larger initiative to. bring in new innovative concepts of museums that trans nationally operate that bring in artists to open up museums to a larger public and that make histories of a lot of suffering visible with objects or the absence of objects visible etc and. the good institute has been trying to also promote this in the sense of that african museums among themselves peer to peer learning is enhanced or supported and that their takes place again in exchange with european or german curators so i think when we think of this return as part of a larger presence of thinking. new forms of work in and with museums then it makes sense and is justified. sometimes i feel that the creation of property rights is really

a delay tactics in many of the cases we actually know with the onus are you know the kingdom of benin is represented by being in we could talk to the above been in directly you know all door it is part of nigeria which is a construct as we know barely in a 100 something years old but the kingdom of benin existed for much longer and is still there we know where for us we know where people are we and actually if we really wanted to speak to them we would speak to them you know i go back to the example of the 4 that were sent back to cameroon in 1074 it went to the people of calm and it is day to can carry off properly and i think you know we have the impression it's a kind of a delay tactic as you know there. it's it's it's actually clear what on here this is something current there can be the case and i agree with mr deacon

that has often been done but i do think that the thing is that a museum in berlin or in mines or wherever cannot unilaterally decide to restore something to that because you have the national museums council in the area for instance which also says that they have a word in this whole process so what i think brings the process forward now in nigeria is that they have the legacy restoration trust fund where all these nigerians are together in one group and tried to sort out this question of whether to bring them to the palace or whether to show them in the museum which is being constructed and i think the important message i take from you is that it's not up to the european actors to decide to hold those sort of problem in nigeria tanzania and kenya thank you i do think you have to accept that the german cannot give cannot take a decision in saying that ok we don't care what the nigerian say the government

says we deal directly with the king family i don't think that would work ok talk about germany germany's ethnological museums are we have we know full of art crammed full of arts and culture from around the world and for a long time the interests of the countries of origin were simply dismissed but to see some pictures 1st of all. can feel and denial and delay for decades this is been the strategy jamming museums have taken towards restitution claims from africa. the most striking example is well famous bust of an equity cheat queen of ancient egypt it was brought to belin illegally by german archaeologists. despite repeated demands for its return. the museum and politicians have refused to even negotiate. ethnological collections in germany counted total of $1500000.00 pounds of facts most of them from africa the missing persons

documentation of how they got here but most of the out what's believed it all stole and 95 percent of the collections of gathering dust in archives without ever being exhibit its. one positive exception is the linden museum instead got in 2019 inside back to transcend this with the bible that once belonged to a national hero chief hendrik with growing. maybe as president accepted the artifacts in an emotional official ceremony. to african states have the right to the man that only stolen odds of facts are returned. that is the big question to the big question then we go back to history when their colonial empire as they were dealing with their communities is where we heard king said the

king's wish to was as a lead as a contrary and you find this a call to traditionally does was to have them and you we do appreciate today i'm there for you to talk to the central government and to do monday their property back a problem is in this country is they don't know who they should you do mine this objects who here in. gemini and. complicated when it comes to the return of human remains we're trying to weasel specialist area an area that is very very important for you tell us a little bit about it we're short on time i'm sorry for that but i really want to hear about yes from here from the area for instance where come from kilimanjaro

area from kilimanjaro region there kilimanjaro are 30 so-called research council has already give you mind today jim on the government to return. the human remains the objects and when we're talking about the district councils they do belong to the governmental level and their government of duns idea object that it is it supports so it probably is who we should for. the months just because i know people there and kilimanjaro and i'm from that same area that's why i say that area at least to this or to this why there isn't a central low here in jamun we tell us all the museums daily visits and clinics for these kind of elo to give back.

ok i. just wanted to add that when we talk about a situation we don't talk only about decisions optics we talk about decision of dignity and that is a typical kids you know when the people get you know the skeletons back this is certain return of the dignity to have the possibility of burying people with on no return of a no. koroma in mind what do i say one for one final point to sign off for us so next time well we're i'll get you guys here and go in for another round the so much to say and carol we'll have you here in germany in berlin your soldiers are out of your folks. just keep up the optimism i think that talking to each other is the most important to the way forward entry being respectful and listening to each others' points of view brings us forward thank you very much is the word from the gentlemen here in berlin to thank you very much for joining us carol and sane minds

it's i hope we're giving you a lot of food for thought and as i say i'd like to continue the show a 2nd time around trying to buy these guys on long another day of thanks for joining us see you soon bye bye. was. a member of the.

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