sometimes proceed is all you need to allow the big ideas to grow. we're bringing environmental conservation to life with learning backs like global ideas. we will show you how climate change ended or mental conservation is taking shape around the world and how we can all make a difference knowledge and grows through sharing. download it now for an attorney on democracy in the tank on freedom of expression and an attack, only europe in silver and see how your opinion leaders have been describing state organized hijacking over ryan f like between to member countries after fellow rational warranties for cross to land in men's activities, journalists, roman protests of it, was bundled away for his life. so how should you respond?

and what is ludovic? bluetooth roland? this apparently reason, piracy, on to the point we ask, are shank orders, kidnapping the disputing, pulling the strings? the news? well, thanks very much indeed for joining us here on to the point to my guest. here in the studio, olga in dover, political scientists from bella rose. her opinion is that bella russians should not be punished with sanctions and locked inside bell roofs without connection to europe. also where this is daria to catch oak editor with the russian east. west tv in berlin, she thinks put in is still pulling the strings of luca shank. oh, everyone's any kind of democratic change in bella ross. we have to talk booting.

welcome to to alexandra fundamental. w, brussels bureau chief, she says sanctions against that will be useless. if you doesn't formulate a strategy that takes the role of russia into accounts as well. yeah, thank you very much. indeed, a great input that to begin with, and i'd like to go to august 1st and just ask you olga, is it fair to say that for anybody who wants to see peace and democracy in bella ross in the near future? this has been a put a disturbing few days. well, definitely for me, it was, i would say more shocking is the story. i mean, we know that beller is, is a long last to not talk. chris, in the whole things that we have been observed in brothers since august 2020. the things are shocking at themselves. but what happened on the weekend? it's just an in like the fantasy to imagine,

to be able to imagine something like that. it's it really, i think it was a very emotional action, emotional decision and, well, what we thing about the consequences that the political and economic consequences of this tap if it's really not adequate for me. so i was really surprised. i was shocked. and my writing saying that what we have seen, in fact, is a warning to journalists, a direct and very, and very dark warning to journalists, the critics of the regime endanger. i would say really not only journalists, but everybody who is now who thought to be face abroad, like the whole a positional leaders and people working with them. and people also present. and he and germany like blair was in the hospital for example, act to those who speak up for bella bruce. of course, they afraid also for their lives now because they did not feel themselves safe. also within the european you know what you meant. different before before this story. okay. let's go to alexandra phenomena in brussels. you have alexander for

many as follow developments in bella rosen, ukraine, and in, in moscow very, very closely. so what do you make of this apparent state sponsored hijacking that we have witnessed? well, i think that it was certainly an unprecedented incident and i think that it's going to change it to change the approach of the european union. and we saw it the reactions, european leaders who were shocked and outraged. and they were describing the incident as a state sponsored terrorism, piracy a, but they were also very concerned because as they put it, the lives of citizens were at risk. we talking here about hydra king of our diversion of a plane that was on its way from 1 pm european capital to the over. so i

think this is something that the european union now has to deal with. and it's an incident that is probably going to put a lot of pressure on brussels to do more. okay. what do you say to that? that reaction in brussels outrage fury? is he going to check the suggestion that it is perhaps a game changer is going to be a game changer. while the biggest thing that it has at least begun to be a game changer, i mean, their reaction was quite a 5. it was also surprisingly fast. for me, fast, hard and quite emotional and we can understand it. and we just heard one of the reasons for that, which is actually what is different now. when we compare dissertation before the weekend after. it's not only about democracy in human rights outside of the anymore, right. so it's about also the security of the european citizens. and i think it was one of the, one of the main reasons why the decision was made that fast within just few hours,

these hard decision that misses $200.00 sco was kind of claiming for half a year old asking the you for, for, for half a year also hard sanctions would be really can this brute sex economic sanctions. we've been talking about for half the already. and now this final story happens and they're probably up on the agenda. so it's really a different level of, of danger for the european units. not only i say only, of course it's important democracy in human rights, but outside of the u. and when we have citizens within the u that put a put under danger by the delivery. and the storage is it's another level of also decisions and of political involvement. for alexandra, just let's come back to you in just what, what if it's, if this is a game changer that has been a tectonic shift, the approach towards bella ross, what, what,

how is that likely to manifest itself in the weeks and months that lie ahead? well, 1st of all, what was just said as, as, as right, that said the decision was made very, very quickly. and it's very surprising. we just have to keep in mind that we had to be crisis and the attempts by the european union to issue a joint statement. one of those was the israel gala a crisis and then china correct down on opposition and hong kong. and in those very important foreign policy measures, foreign policy matters while the, the, you were p and union was not able to find a common position to issue a common statement because one member state blocked those decisions. and now here within a few hours, you have a strong response, you have concrete measures that were agreed on like this. this ban of blending by the state will be lucy and state own care. yeah,

the lobby for example. then the announcement of sanctions and we are apparently talking here not only about targeted sanctions against individuals or companies, but we are apparently also talking about sanctions against whole industry sectors. so it really appears that the european union, at least at the moment, is united and determined to punish location. and he's a regime and also to make clear that they are not going to tolerate such incidents in the future. that's brilliant. are you into the fix? the criminal denies involved much in sundays operation, but a lot of experts say that president putin would have known about the hijacking incidence. what's your take on that? very important question. did he know? did he not know? i think we're never going to know for sure if she personally said yes to this landing of a plane, or if he was somehow talking to

a question on the days before. and they've agreed that this is the way they're going to for to savage. however, i think that it is not very important for us in europe to know where the pushing was personally involved with this particular answer. the incident in the men's care port on may 23rd. what is important is the put in is the big supporter of location call. he is giving him money. rush and water is essentially the only open water that still remains for bella roof. there is a lot of interaction between this 2 governments and put in essentially is the one pulling the strings of lucca, shinkel, lucretia, quite well known for acting on his own, which is not exactly completely control by putting that would not be true. morse. however, i do think that if europe on some kind of democratic change in bellows, they have to take the account, the position of russian and talk to russia as well. yeah. and when we took the

significance of russia, the significance of letting me put it, it has been suggested that what we're actually experiencing is another exchange of fire in a, in a long, slowly escalating proxy war between, between the minced on one side and, and must go on one side and the european union on the other side, is that too far fetched? well, it's a good question. i mean, there is an interesting point of view that this particular act of gushing, called the landing of the reiner plane, is his way of burning the bridges with the european union. and thus kind of closing up to put in and showing that you really are my last supporter. i really have to depend on you 100 percent right now. on the other hand, it is well known to put in is not a fan of work. i think of personally their personal relationship is not great. location could also doesn't really like,

wouldn't that much and you could even see it in the way that the petition. belarus was initially covered by the russians, the media like russia today, when it all just started. now it's very prohibition called by the beginning there were of and somehow sympathetic for the protesters the 1st few days. it quickly changed. however, it is. however, what we can also look at is the treatment of the russian citizen location called girlfriend's service. if he is a big guy who is detained in bellows, and we do not really see many attempts of the russian politicians to try to free her, maria is horrible. the spokesperson of the russian foreign ministry said that the russian console in minsk has talked to her. but that was all. she said they didn't say, oh, we're working hard to free her. she's innocent. none of that. so there must have been some kind of coordination to most men's can moscow. in this particular case, we will probably never know the extent of it. ok, let's go back to robot process events and find out what his young political career

tells us about the current generation of protesters and the mood in bella ross itself solidarity with them for to savage. the 26 year old co founder, the telegram channel. next to where he reported on demonstrations arrest and violence, and by the rest, he is now living next to a back in his homeland. he was wanted on charges including inciting protests against because shank last sunday i write an essay traveling between 2 e u countries was supposed to land at the airport by about russian military jet under the pretext of a bomb scan. to savage, i'm his girlfriend were arrested immediately. 3 other passengers who voted the plain and office in not arrive at the destination and lithuania. they were according to ryan s, c o michael or li by the secret service k t

b agents. video of it has since been released in it. he states that he is being treated fairly by the authorities. you as however, believe it was obtained by 4 is the punch savage, a friend likely to explode? how explosive is the situation surrounding room and prophecy, which was quite frightening. i mean, we still have the death penalty in beller. bella versus the only european country with the penalties to practice and practice literally every year. and he could face up to 15 years, but we never know how the sedation develops. i mean, in the worst case, i really hope it doesn't happen, but these dangerous still talks about is a very genuine shocking possibility. yes. but once again, his, i mean, the death penalty cases we see it every year in valor. is that it's,

it's really about the, the nature of the autocratic state and it was never abolished. and valerie, that the problem he's actually official listen is a terrorist. and there is something really different just to be in a positional leader or human rights defendant, or to be present that is a terrorist. it's an interesting mixture, journalist blogger, opposition, journalist activist. if you so we'll dissident, he's been described, how much does he does? he represent his generation. he's still a very young. he's 26 years old. oh, well yes he is young, but i mean the role that's not he personally, i mean he, there was a group of people who were in charge of this kilogram child, though. it was crucial for organized and that proved us. and valerie last year was not the reason for the poorest, but then managed through telegram channels through social media to organize people to mobilize then, and whistle hundreds of 1000 people on the woods. it's not about his personality,

it was real political danger. poor question can thank then, but when you mentioned his personality, there is i, you know, i read constantly that there is a very personal element to the animosity between the blogger and the president. well, i don't know that i can only think that it could be true. i mean look, because a person who, who never forgets he is fine, and he's the bench oriented person in the course of this. what cannot exclude this a college factor. but once again, it was a real political danger back van. so it's not only about some personalities, it's about organizing revolution and recent $11.00 of the organizes of protest, physical or physical organized and approved. and the people which are ready to prove that they had to prove it moved, but they managed to do it through social media. and i think it's of course, it's also interesting for security forces just to get these information out to him how it really happened. why, why it was successful? i think they have the feeling. they said,

i think the blurs instead has not understood what actually happened. they still want to understand what was that? what was it last year? these protest unprecedented pro to isabel lost that half a year. they still want to know what is behind it, and it's not about the act. open up the sewage. it's about people, it's about the change political reality. and valerie bye, they still have this hope. if they close everybody in prison or make them leave the country, visitation will come back, but it will not come back. alexandra, how are people peter? yeah, yeah, maybe i can just jump in if you allow me. because i think this could also be that this incident, it's not only about the blogger, it's also about sending a message to the west of that, to look at shanker, it's apparently think he can act with, with impunity. he can do whatever he wants to without feeling any major consequences. and this also could be a strong message to all other opposition figures, journalists,

civil society, members, look, no one can protect you, i can get you. and this is of course, very dangerous development. but that could be also part of his thinking behind what happens in minsk. sorry, what's your, what's your response? this is this debate about whether the, you know, the personality of the, of professor bitch is, is important whether, whether he's part of a generation, is it the individual or is it the, is it the, the people surrounding him and people working with him as well? i think it's more of the telegram channel next to him because i can say it's jen list the you can call them procedure unless they are biased. the use even the fingers of food you can see have speech or older can enlighten us more on this later, but they use very derogatory phrases. so for example, the use the term crushes, which is a mixture of 2 words for shift fascist on glucose shinkel. so they are openly

calling bluish and police said it's like they are very going to spreading this very particular, very aggressive for just move under telegram channel. however, they were very good at reporting protests. they had video feed, several videos applauded every day, showing protests happening and very different cities around bellows. so the war, of course, we're not why the protest happened, but they were an important part of the protest movement. they were way for people to feel connected. and they played a very important role in that regard, and i think that is why location grades for to savage, so much. oh good. what can you add to that for us? i do completely agree. i mean, i also agree with the hate speech. we see it actually both levels on the, on the level of media, but also the level color graham channels. it's really will be blurry since the fight is now really deeply divided and it's not that good. but think about

perspective for the time after question. if we could imagine any kind of reconciliation, society to me, it's really, really hard. but if you allow me to come back just to change that to come back to the topic of the european reaction. because i would like to react to this commence from, from the colleague in brussels, that with this air band for the recent airlines. the u intends to punish the barrison regime which is understandable for me. but we said in this as pavement at the beginning, i mean the question i'm asking myself the whole time, i mean what happens with a whole bill, a recent with all the bill. i recent that kind of unfortunately, and i'm sure unintentionally from the you, but still kind of locked within their own country with such unprecedented level of repression to happening. i mean when know that since the end of 2020,

but i received some problems crossing the land boy of dollars because of the official of cabbage regulations. but we know that most probably the reasons i'll political. so air flights has been the only way for those who wanted to leave the country out of political reasons till now. now if it's really happened is that the recent airlines cannot and to the european union, what happens with the people? i mean, i just want to ask if this essay was some kind of also discussed on the you level or you think it could some kind of be changed within the upcoming months or is it, is it on the agenda? it's under the brussel. so it's not, yes, it's not officially on the agenda, but it's fair to say that we can assume that that was discussed during the summer. it's also the leaders here in brussels because of course, they know that the european union is walking a tightrope here. they want

a rope here, they wants to punish the regime. they don't want to punish the people of killers, they want to support and strengthen the civil society. but i think that the 1st reaction and this overflights ban and then the band for beloved to land at many beloved from lending at the airports. it was also about safety. we talk about that . and then of course, it was also about sending a strong signal. i can imagine that you know, that they can review those measures after a while. and of course, they understand that it's also going to affect a normal citizens. but we have to mentioned that they were even much more extreme measures on the table that were discussed in brussels like cutting off bending old traffic even including ground a trends it from bill or was to the european union. and they said no to to those proposals. so that's always

a difficult decision how to punish the government and not to punish the people. and of course you have to find a solution that all members can agree on. thank you. ok, very interesting. those are the proposals, what do want to people in brussels? imagine the impacts of those proposals is likely to be again in the next, in the coming days, weeks and months. while there are certainly hoping to change the regime behavior. but as we could see in the past location, comb more and less trucks of everything that brussels was doing, any other sanctions imposed on the regime. but now they seem to be willing to go even further to, to sanction, to, to impose sanctions against the whole industrial sectors. hoping that that could change location const behavior a change to situation on the ground. and the other thing that there are talking

about and have also implemented is, you know, to, to provide the civil society with chances a to, to grow, to support them. they decided to, to, they're going to spend 24 millions 1000000 euros to, to, to do that. so that's also another thing that they are willing to do. however, we have to say that they toolbox is as limited as long as the russian president vladimir putin is supporting min. so politically, but also economically. yeah. and the top of the show, oh, it said it is essential importance that we the you talk directly to flooding, they put in about the future of pelvis. what did you have in mind? i don't feel that there is some big meeting of put in with seizures that burrell also on line. however,

there isn't the board meeting between one report and so by the president of the united states in geneva. if i am not mistaken, middle of june. yeah. that could potentially be the moment and they will talk about it. and as far as i remember, the us state has actually confirmed that the services on the agenda. so maybe they can talk about something there. but it is very hard to do any kind of predictions here, put in is known to act, father unpredictably. another important thing is that there is a general election presidential election as well in russia. in september, the 19th, actually one week before germany has a general election polluting does not want to show, probably will not want to show any weaknesses before that and that's really soon. september is not far away. however, we candidate, people often say that o, putting would like to and their expel roofs and completely mergers and bellows.

because this will give him the same bush to the rating if he did with crimea in 2014, that's not true. there is no 2nd. crimea crania did have a certain effect on putting rating. he really did go through the roof. the moment it was the next, it is deflated. now again, but bellows, in some countries, a fresh and one to see integrated into russia. it's crania, was such an issue. this was the only existing one. this is now gone. so it is really hard to predict what put in is. welcome is ready to put in the bargaining table with vitamin photos. you have any reason to be immediately optimistic about the situation. just the round up was shown today to have some a positional forces in the end to the tensions. maybe they will have more weight in europe that they used to be before due to this due to this story. but i don't

know, really i really everything is happening there is okay, we'll have to leave it. we've been talking about the latest crisis in dela rosa, thank you very much for joining us. we've provided you with plenty of suits us a little by, by the the news the news, the news, [000:00:00;00]

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