don't know how to get the feel. the magic discovers the world around you. subscribe to d w documentary on youtube. an attorney on democracy in a tech on freedom of expression and an attack only european sovereignty. how your opinion leaders have been describing state organized hijacking over ryan asked why it's between 2 member countries. after bell rational clarity, forced to land in minced activities to journalists, roman protest of it was bundled away macpherson,

his life. so how should you respond? and what is ludovic rolling? this apparently brazen piracy on to the point we ask in question, co oldest kidnapping, the disputing pulling the strings? the news. thanks very much indeed for joining us here on to the point to my guest here in the studio. all good or in dover. political scientists from bella. ruth, her opinion is that bella russians should not be punished with sanctions and locked inside bell roofs without connection to her closer witnesses. daria, who ca choke editor with the russian east. west tv in berlin. she thinks putin is still pulling the strings of lucas shank. oh, if we wants any kind of democratic change in bella, rosa, we have to welcome to to alexandra fundamental, w,

brussels bureau chief. she says sanctions against ross will be useless. if you've doesn't formulate a strategy that takes the role of russia into account as well. yeah, thank you very much indeed, a great input that to begin with and i'd like to go to august 1st and just ask you olga, is it fair to say that for anybody who wants to see peace and democracy in bella ross in the near future? this has been a put a disturbing few days. well, definitely for me, it was, i would say more shocking in the store. i mean, we know that beller is, is a long last to not talk chris, in the whole things that we have been observe in brothers since august 2020 these things are shocking themselves. but what happened on the weekend? it's just an in like the fantasy to imagine,

to be able to imagine something like that. and so it's, it really, i think it was a very emotional action, emotional decision. and well, when we think about the consequences that the political and economic consequences of this tap, it's really not adequate for me. he said, i was really surprised that was shock. yeah. and am i right in saying that what we have seen, it effect is a warning to journalists, a direct and very, and very dark warning to journalists, the critics of the regime endanger. i would say really not only eternal is, but everybody who is now who thought to be face abroad, like the whole a positional leaders and people working with them. and people also present. and he and germany like i was in the hospital, for example, activists who speak up for bella risk of course, they afraid also for their lives now because they did not feel themselves safe. also within the european union, which were different before before this story. okay,

let's go to alexander phenomena in brussels. you have alex under for many as follow developments in bella rosen, ukraine, and in, in moscow very, very closely. so what do you make of this apparent state sponsored hijacking the we have witnessed? well, i think that it was certainly an unprecedented incident and i think that it's going to change it to change the approach of the european union. and we saw it the reactions, european leaders who were shocked and outraged. and they were describing the incident as a state sponsored terrorism, piracy, but they were also very concerned because as they put it, the lives all thought you citizens were at risk. we talking here about hydra king of our diversion of a plane that was on its way from 1 pm european capital to the other. so i

think this is something that the european union now has to deal with. and it's an incident that is probably going to put a lot of pressure on brussels to, to do more. okay. what do you say to that, that reaction in brussels outrage fury? is he going to to the suggestion that it is perhaps a game changer is going to be a game changer? while the little biggest thing that it has at least begun to be a game changer, i'm in the reaction was quite a 5. it was also surprisingly fast for me, fast, hard and quite emotional and we can and then, and we just heard one of the reasons for that, which is actually what is different. now, when we compare the sedation before that we can after it's not only about democracy in human rights outside of the anymore, right? so it's about also the security of the european citizens. and i think it was one of the, one of the main reasons why the decision was made that foss with,

in just few hours, these hard decision that needed to handle sco was kind of claiming for half a year or ask in the you for, for, for half a year, also hard sanctions, if they really come the road, sexual economic sanctions, we've been talking about for half a year. all ready. and now this final story happens and they're totally up on the agenda. so it's really a different level of, of danger for the european units. not only i say only, of course, it's important democracy in human rights, but outside of the u. and when we have citizens within the u that i put a put under danger by the delivery and storage is it's another level of also decisions and of political moment center. i just like to come back to you in just what, what if it's, if this is a game changer? if that has been a tectonic shifted, the approach towards bella ross, what, what,

how is that likely to manifest itself in the weeks and months that lie ahead? well, 1st of all, what was just said as of right that the decision was made very, very quickly. and it is very surprising, we just have to keep in mind that we had to be crisis and the attempts by the european union to issue a joint statement. one of those was the israel got a crisis and then china correct down on opposition and hong kong and in those very important foreign policy measures. foreign policy matters while the european union was not able to find a common position to issue a common statement because one member state blocked those decisions. and now here within a few hours, you have a strong response. you have concrete measures that were agreed on like this, this ban of blending by the state. be

a lucy and state own care. yeah. be a lot of yeah, for example then the announcement of sanctions and we are upon the talking here not only about targeted sanctions against individuals or companies, but we are apparently also talking about sanctions against whole industry sectors. so it really appears that the european union, at least at the moment, is united and determined to punish location. and he's a regime and also to make clear that they are not going to tolerate such incidence in the future. that's pretty darn terry into the fix. the kremlin denies involved much in sundays operation, but a lot of experts say that president putin would have known about hijacking incidence. what's your take on that? very important question. did he know what did he not know? i think we're never going to know for sure if she personally said yes to this landing of a plane, or if he was somehow talking to

a question on the days before. and they've agreed that this is the way they're going to get per hey ridge. however, i think that it is not very important for us in europe to know where the pushing was personally involved with this particular answer. the incident in the men's care port on may 23rd. what is important is that put in is the biggest supporter of luca shinkel. he is giving him money. russian border is essentially the only open water that still remains for bella. ruth, there is a lot of interaction between the 2 governments and put in essentially is the one pulling the strings of luca shinkel over location who is well known for acting on his own. he's not exactly completely control by putting that would not be true. morse. however, i do think that if europe on some kind of democratic change in bellows, they have to take into account the position of russian and talk to russia as well.

yeah. and when we talk about the significance of russian, the significance of letting me push it, it has been suggested that what we're actually experiencing is another exchange of fire in a, in a long, slowly escalating proxy war between, between uminski on one side and, and must go on one side and the european union on the other side is not too far fetched. well, it's a good question. i mean, there is an interesting point of view that this particular act of aggression called the lending of the reiner plane, is his way of burning the bridges with the european union. and thus kind of closing up to put in and showing that you really are my last supporter. i really have to depend on you 100 percent right now. on the other hand, it is well known to put in is not a fan of what question could personally, their personal relationship is not great. location could also doesn't really like

putting that much and you could even see it in the way the tradition. bella was initially covered by the russians. the media like to be when it all just started. now it's very pearl shinkel, bottom the beginning. there were of them somehow sympathetic for the protesters the 1st few days. it quickly changed. however, it is. however, what we can also look at is the treatment of the russian citizen location called girlfriends. if he is a bigger who is detained and bellows, and we do not really see many attempts of the russian politicians to try to free, her. murray is horrible. the spokesperson of the russian foreign ministry said that the russian consul in men's cuts talk to her, but that was all. she said, they didn't say, oh, we're working hard to free her. she's innocent. none of that. so there must have been some kind of coordination to most men's can moscow. in this particular case, we will probably never know the extent of it. ok, let's go back to robot process eventually and find out what his young political

korea tells us about the current generation of protesters and the moods in bella ross itself solidarity with the very man for to savage. the 26 year old co founded the telegram channel next to where he reported on demonstration arrest and violence, and by the us, he is now living next all the way back in his homeland. he was wanted on challenges including inciting process again because last sunday i've, i, an airplane traveling between 2 e. u countries was forced to land at the airport by a, by the russian military jet, under the pretext of the bombs gas purchase of agenda. del friend were arrested immediately. 3 other passengers voted the plain and office did not arrive at the destination and let the way they were. according to ryan s. c o michael o'leary

by the secret service k t b agents. a video of it has since been released in it. he states that he is being treated fairly by the authorities. you as however, believe it was obtained by force is the point of savage affair likely to explode. how explosive is the situation surrounding room and prophecy, which was quite frightening. i mean, it was to have this penalty in beller bella versus the only european country with the penalties to practice and practice literally every year. and he could face up to 15 years, but we never know how the situation develops. i mean, in the worst case, i really hope it doesn't happen, but these dangerous still talks about is a very genuine shocking possibility. a yes, but once again he's, i mean, this death penalty cases receive every year in valor. is that it's,

it's really about the, the nature of the autocratic state and it was never abolished. and valerie, that's a problem. he's actually seen official listen is a terrorist. and there was something really different just to be an oppositional leader or human rights defend it, or to be perceptive that a parish it's an interesting mixture, journalist blogger, opposition, journalist activist. if you so we'll dissident, he's been described, how much does he does? he represent his generation. he's still a very young. he's 26 years old. oh, well yes, he is young that i mean the role that's not he personally, i mean he, there was a group of people who were in charge of this kilogram child, though it was crucial for organized and that protest and valerie last year it was not the reason for the poor, but then managed through telegram channels through social media to organize people to mobilize then. and we saw hundreds of 1000 people on the street. so it was, it's not about his personality. it was real political danger. poor question can

then. but when you mentioned this personality, there is, i, you know, i read constantly, that there is a very personal element to the animosity between the blogger and the president. well, i don't know that i can only think that it could betray and look at her and the person who, who never forgets his pines, and he's a bench oriented person in the course of this. we cannot exclude this a cause factor, but once again, it was a real political danger back then. it's not only about some personalities, it's about organizing revolution and $11.00 of the organizes of protest, physical or physical organized and approved. and the people which are ready to prove that they had this protest moon, but they managed to do it through social media. and i think it's of course, it's also interest in for security forces just to get the information out to him, how it really happened. why, why it was successful? i think they have the feeling. they said,

i think the blow resisted has not understood what actually happened, but still want to understand what was it, what was it last year? these protest unprecedented pro to the last a half a year. they still want to know what is behind it, and it's not about next to the civic. it's about people. it's about the change political reality. embarrassed by base to you. how this hope is. they close everybody in prison or make them leave the country. that situation will come back, but it will not come back. alexander, how are people, peter? yeah, yeah, maybe i can just jump in if you allow me. because i think this could also be that this incident, it's not only about the blogger, it's also about sending a message to the west of that location. it's apparently think he can act with, with impunity. he can do whatever he wants to without feeling any major consequences. and this also could be a strong message to all other opposition figures, journalists,

civil society, members, look, no one can protect you, i can get you. and this is of course, very dangerous development. but that could be also part of his thinking behind what happens in minsk. sorry, what's your, what's your response? this is this debate about whether the, you know, the personality of the, of professor bitches is important. whether, whether he's part of the generation, is it the individual or is it the, is it the, the people surrounding him, people working with him as well? i think it's more of the telegram channel next to because i can say journalist, the you can call them proper journalists. they are biased. the use even the figures, if you can see, have speech are older, can enlighten us more in this later. but the use very derogatory phrases. so for example, the use, the term you crushes, which is

a mixture of 2 words for shift fascist and glucose shinkel. so they are openly calling, bluish police said it's like they are very going to spreading this very particular, very aggressive, purchased mood under telegram channel. however, they were very good at reporting protests. they had video feed, several videos applauded every day, showing protests happening and very different cities around bellows. so the war, of course, they were not why the protest happened, but they were an important part of the protest movement. they were way for people to feel connected. and they played a very important role in that regard. and i think that is why location grades for to savage. so much, olga. what can you add to that for us? i do completely agree. i mean, i also agree with the hate speech. we see it actually both levels on the, on the levels, tape media, but also the levels telegram channels. it's really will be blurry since the side is

now really deeply divided. and it's not that good. but think about perspective for the time asked question if we could imagine any kind of reconciliation in society to me, it's really, really hard. but if you allow me to come back just to change that to come back to the topic of the european reaction, because i would like to react to this commence from, from the colleague in brussels. that with this air band for the recent airlines. the u intends to punish the barrison regime, which is understandable for me. but we said in this as pavement at the beginning and then the question, i'm asking my cell the whole time. i mean what happens with a whole bill? a recent with all the bill. i recent that i kind of unfortunately, and i'm sure unintentionally from the you, but still kind of locked within their own come through with such unprecedented level of repressions to happening. i mean, we know that since the end of 2020,

but i really since have problems crossing the land boy of dollars because of the official college regulations. but we know that most probably of the reasons are political. so if lights has been the only way for those who wanted to leave the country out of political reasons till now. now if it really happens that bill everson airlines cannot enter the european union. what happens with the people? i mean, i just want to give this ethic was some kind of also discussed on the you level or you think it could some kind of be changed within the upcoming month or is it, is it on the agenda? alexandra brussels. so it's not, yes, it's not officially on the agenda, but it's fair to say that we can assume that that was discussed during the summit of the leaders he and brussels because of course, they know that they repeat, the union is walking a tightrope here they want

a rope here they wants to punish the regime. they don't want to punish the people of viola roost. they want to support and strengthen the civil society. but i think that the 1st reaction and this overflights ban and then the ban for the lobby to land at benning. beloved from lending at the airport, it was also about safety. we talk about that. and then of course, it was also about sending a strong signal. i can imagine that you know, that they can review those measures after a while. and of course, they understand that it's also going to affect a normal citizens. but we have to mentioned that they were even much more extreme measures on the table that were discussed in brussels like cutting off bending old traffic even including ground transit from viola was to the european union. and they said no to those proposals. so that's always

a difficult decision, how to punish the government and not to punish the people. and of course you have to find a solution that all members can agree on. thank you. ok, very interesting. those are the proposals. what do people in brussels? imagine the impacts of those proposals is likely to be again in the next, in the coming days, weeks and months. while there are suddenly hoping to change the regime behavior. but as we could see in the past, look, shinkel more or less trucked off everything that brussels we're doing, any other sanctions imposed on the regime. but now they seem to be willing to go even further to, to sanction, to, to impose sanctions against, you know, whole industrial sectors. hoping that that could change because shackles behavior, a change to situation on the ground. and the other thing that there are talking

about and have also implemented is, you know, to, to provide the civil society with chances to grow, to support them. they decided to, to, there are going to spend 24 millions 1000000 euros to, to, to do that. so that's also another thing that they are willing to do. however, we have to say that they toolbox is as limited as long as the russian presidents let him important is supporting men's politically, but also economically. yeah. and the top of the show can said this is the central importance that we the you talk directly to flooding there, put in about the future of fellows. what did you have in mind? i don't feel that there is some big meeting of put in with seizures that burrell or

sort of on line. however, there is an important meeting between them reported and by the president of the united states in geneva. if i am not mistaken, middle of june, you know, that could potentially be the moment when they will talk about it. and as far as i remember, the u. s. state has actually confirmed that doris is on the agenda. so maybe they can talk about something there, but it is very, really hard to do. any kind of predictions here put in is known to act, father unpredictably. another important thing is that there is a general election presidential election as well in russia. in september, the 19th, actually one week before germany has general election putting does not want to show probably will not want to show any weaknesses before that, and that's really soon. september is not, not far away. however, we can't people often say that o, putting would like to and they expel roofs and completely merged us and bellows.

because this will give him the same booster writing as he did with crimea 2014. that's not true. there is no 2nd crimea, crimea did have a certain effect on put in rating. he really did go through the roof. the moment it was the next, it is deflated. now again. but bellows isn't some country. the russians, one to see integrated into russia, it's crania, was such an issue. this was the only existing one. this is now gone. so it is really hard to predict what put in is. welcome is ready to put in the bargaining table with a bite. you have any reason to be immediately optimistic about the situation. just the round up the show today that might be a positional forces. in the end, we see the tensions. maybe they will have more weight in europe that they used to be before due to this due to this is tory that, that i don't know really. i really everything is happening very okay. we'll have to

leave it. we've been talking to the latest crisis in dela rosa, thank you very much for joining us. we've provided you with plenty of super by, by the the news. the news, the news? the, the news,

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a 1000000000 euros in namibia deliveries the president, alexander lucas shall go, has told his russian counterpart of vladimir putin.