w richard walker explores the evolution of digital warfare, making military law more efficient, deadly decisions. those with the rest algorithm survive. interest anerio, absolute. future wars starts june 10th on the thing w. on many occasions i made some powerful people very angry, but you don't change them in to changing their behavior. do you commission of human rights? and my mandate is very clear. your has almost nothing to teach the rest of the world about human rights so that it is not like advice. this is not easy. the council of europe has issued its latest verdicts on human rights and democracy in europe. and it makes unpleasant reading europe, democratic environment, and institutions that says are in mutually reinforcing, decline. we talked

a lot about democracy and human rights on this program for the good data time, holding politicians to account for actions for the peace when danger those rights. but the situation is not so critical. we decided to question a leading official who's trying to protect human rights about why that protection is famous. junior me after which is commissioner for human rights of accounts of europe. and she's always been awful stuff, but what is it gone so spectacularly wrong? the dounia may out of edge welcome to comfort zone. thank you. 2 months ago you press the emergency button on human rights in europe. you said 2020 had been a disastrous year for those rights on the continent. one of the bleakest

assessments to be heard for a long time. do you think anybody is listening to your warning? well, i hope so. it is something that is affecting us all. no matter which part of the world, and if this is not a moment for all governments in europe and beyond, to take a long, hard look in the mirror and realize how important it is that we move forward in a different way than we be moving until now, before this unprecedented time, we are all facing what people are listening because plenty of your warnings in the past have fallen on deaf ears. one example the issue of migrant abuse in hungry as far back as 2019. you said this needed to be addressed as a matter of urgency. nothing was done, gary and continued pushing back,

migrants across the border with serbia. my question is, why do you think you lack the personal authority to change the minds of people who do these things? who commit these violations or is hungry a last cause? well, i would not say that the hungary law called 1st support because of the area because the people that rely on the protection of the convention when it comes to my personal influence and the impact the time. those tell i cannot change the government. i cannot play to be in a position, but i can use something that is the most powerful tool in my, to the commissioner, which is my voice. giving my voice, the voiceless, making sure that human rights violations are documented. and this is something that is over the, i would say extremely important. the impact can be measured in different ways, but many or in different international organizations have been saying for years

about area situation and also in situation of many other countries that are moving you know, very direction and say. so freedom of media, for example, comes to my mind already in 2010 in a different position. i warned about social media x, and i said this is going to mirror and this is happening right now. nevertheless, we should not give up. we should continue warnings and using all the tools that we have in our disposal and ultimately will be a decision of variance and also the government that should comply with the international law and standard when it gives just hungry is it, there are plenty of states that are involved in these violations. you often hear the claim that human rights must be sacrificed for the sake of protecting national or european boundaries. what do you tell those governments which,

which advance that argument? i something disagree with this. i think this is a wrong path and wrong way, but equally to everything that europe at the continent experienced in the last decade, the 70 years ago when the organizational councils, europe was established. this is not the way to protect multilateralism. muslim them approved to be extremely important, not only for democratic countries, but also countries that are trying to move forward some democratic order. and you know, i come from from booking and had to go. and i know how it is important to move forward and recognize the international issues at the same time, of course, protecting culture tradition, but not using it as an excuse not to protect human rights. this is wrong. and

because of this view, on many occasions i made some white powerful people, very angry, which in a way is part of mine, and i don't make them angry, but you don't shame them into changing their behavior though. do you? well, i've tried to shame domain name then, but then at the end, you know, it really depends on the government for they are do. as i said, i cannot, i'm not an opposition. political position. i'm commissioner for human rights. and my mandate is very clear. it was created by those states in order to be mine. it is quite a young institution 20 years since the ment, but it's also quite unique because it is the tournament independence. and it is up to the commissioner to decide, in which direction to grow the attention and to call for respect of human rights. of course, i really do. it is not black and white. this is not easy will don't like to see results or other commission. i understand the key to the effective functioning of

the council is the binding commitment, supposedly, of member countries to implement decisions of the european court of human rights. that too has been a significant failure. hasn't it? your own figures show it as of january this year, a staggering 45 percent of the leading judgments from the court, finalized in the last 10 years have not been implemented. that's a shocking figure, isn't it? it is shocking fever, but at a time we also need to recognize that many decision, you know, they were implemented and their update that still do honor their commitments. this is quite extraordinary what we are facing at the moment. and here i can just mention cases that i think people i can really refer to the case of the kabbalah who i visited the prison 2 years

ago. he's still in prison, even though there is a judgement from the board of human rights and government is not implementing extremely important judgment. nobody in russia is another. i want you to come on and i want to talk about russia and about me in a moment. but, but these rulings are your most important tool for correcting injustice. and governments are throwing huge numbers of them in the been and my question is, if, if that doesn't work, and that's your major lever, your major mechanism for writing wrongs. what have you got left? i think it's not correct there. it's one of the mechanisms, of course, it is extremely important find i can always present a 3rd party intervention like i did in many of the cases that we already mention. but then it is ultimately, you know,

with the states and also the committee of ministers, of the council of europe that is monitoring execution of the judgment of the supreme court of human rights for me. the other tools at my disposal, bilateral discussions, but also teaching access to presents in order to really try to understand the situation that in some cases, extremely complex. but i agree with you that there was the fusion of the judgment of the code of human rights is a key. and that it's something that we need to, to do more, more needs to be done. on the political level. we need more, you know, governments that are willing to, to name the stage that are not really how to be a document. they seem to be in short supply those governments you, you have pointed out the cove it because of them because accelerated,

the decline of democracy in europe with governments acquiring special powers that have served to erode the checks and balances on them. but this process has been under way for a long time, as you said on april 21st commitment to upholding human rights values has been faltering all over the continent for several years. so during those years, there should have been time to stop the slide. now. my wasn't the intervention done much, much earlier when the pattern was seen and identified. well, there is no question from him dollar a for all of us to answer and also lost our self by you facing this situation now. but if the major should, should germany, france, u k, i mean, they will claim to value human, right? what i have done, most of the states should have done more, but when it comes to human rights protection, i would say, you know, based on my career and everything i did, i see it's not a sprint. it is,

it is american. i would say it is difficult to to the results results required time. but i think that commitment is a p here and i don't have time do they do me out of? it's a lot of big living in a pulling conditions, a poorly human rights abuse. many visiting many but also results only yesterday i learned about decision by the check parliament to compensate roma. women that suffered sterilization in the ninety's, which was part of my work and engagement department. and the government justice is also very slow. but it is important that we see, and i agree with you. there are many, many parts of marginalized parts of the society that are waiting for impacts and

waiting for their health for, for the help from isn't it, isn't it true? commission of the business in a way is to blame for this faltering commitment that you've spoken about this idea, for instance, that germany always pushes change through trade. you get the trade, but in terms of human rights, nothing changes. does it look at the deals with china and rough russia? no leverage human rights whatsoever? this was especially true of the controversial note stream to gas deal with russia. no human rights considerations were allowed to get in the way of that were there, this is, this is a lost opportunity, isn't it? the push human rights? of course, each time of human rights are not in the center of any kind of discussions. we fade . and we move backwards, but it is the same time i think this should also be assigned to all parts of

working in the right area. not to really of the in a way ignorant to these happenings. of course these, you do follow everything but my work and my mandate gives me, you know, many opportunities to raise these questions with the governments, with society in many of the states. and for me, dialogue is a p as well. but also the same time, you know why the misty to get some with the dialogue has to get somewhere, doesn't it? and i'm looking at your report. europe has almost nothing to teach the rest of the world about human rights. does it? you said in contemporary europe, human rights defend those killed abducted, jailed harris. the space for civil society when those democratic institutions are dismantled, independent judges removed. journalists are silenced by pointing,

know that you've effectively demolished the idea that you're be some kind of beacon of human rights having to it isn't it isn't anymore than i would, i would still say that it is. there are many things that we should not take for granted. and forget that, you know, millions of people have become free from oppression, poverty, free to live there. one. so it's not in black and white, and you just portrayed europe much 15 years of steady decline, of observance of human rights and democratic principles. that's nothing to be proud of. is it? no, that's nothing to be proud of. but as i said, there are still examples of government, you know, really accepting refugees doing great things, vocal human right. you, you mentioned russia, it's pick a state that doesn't appear to be committed to those rights like o member countries. russia agreed to be banned by the rulings of the european court

of human rights. but in the case of the opposition leader elect saying the boundary which you mentioned earlier. russia has clearly found that the orders of the court hasn't it? the court said in february, nevada, and they should be temporary released from jail because the government couldn't provide sufficient safeguards for his life and health rushes, justice minister called the ruling unenforceable and threw it in the been where does that leave you? well, this is a clear disregard of human rights and international obligations about the case is emblematic case. this also shows that beneath, you know, there are many more problems like a lack of independent judiciary in russia. human rights abuses in chechnya, lack of investigation, repression of descent and harass mental human rights defenders. so it's not just the volume of only just one case where we see that the russian federation is

completely disregarding the decision of the board of human rights. but i still remain hopeful that he will be soon free and the structure will show importance one. 2 member of the council of europe is based on a commission of because the russian states also called the court ruling blatant and gross interference in the judicial affairs of a foreign state. now that one statement undermines the basis on which countries belong to the counselor, doesn't it? the fact is, if the council does nothing about this, the countless numbers of people in russia and elsewhere will conclude that you're simply not capable of enforcing the requirements of council membership. and standing up to tough and abusive governments is not right. not really. it is not that simple. it is up to the government to implement the judgment. it is up to the

committee of ministers of the council of europe to push for the institution of the judgment. we have to keep dialogue with dorothy is also in difficult situation and it is not because of difficulties that we give up. on the contrary, i think this is also a moment for the council of europe to do more than ever before and did all the institutions and all the mechanisms that we had disposal. i think at the end of the seat, this cannot happen overnight. at the same time, i completely agree with you. not at the teaching judgment of europe invited unacceptable. and all the countries that are really not doing it should be cold, publicly. and really, you know, we should try to do as much as we can in order to continue pushing for the release of people that are sitting in jail. and our commission, unacceptable is,

is an overused word internationally isn't. it's normally meant to cover things that we've already accepted, but wish we hadn't russia has faced credible allegations of attempting to murder. not only like st. me, but a former intelligence officer said a script, paul and his daughter in england and 2018. and that j are accused of murdering another former office. alex on the vignette london in 2006, russia denies all these charges, but these are credible allocations and it still has its seat in the council art. isn't it the, despite these allegations from a european body, it's still allowed to keep its seat in a body that promotes democracy and human rights. why is that? why is that? and this is not really a question i can answer because not only russia,

but all the states are teaching in international organizations. they have a seat in the security council un be including council. if you're my role is not to make a judgement to state, should you know, as a member or not is definitely out. you know, my mandate. what is it is in my mandate is to remind those states to comply that the commitments and to honor the values and that they agree when they became members of different international organizations. nobody pushed russia or poor. russia will become a member of the council of europe or any other country. why do we see that? not russia. many other countries are simply taking the box and saying, we are proud member of this and organization and not doing anything. it's

a huge question. but because of the council of europe, the problem is it gives many governments a cloak of respectability that they don't deserve. doesn't it? like as i said, you know, being member of the club, you know, always the honorable thing. but if you do not follow the rules of the club and you know, this is something that should be exposed then to seat in the counsel, i think it's important to say is to ensure the protection of the citizen, not the government. we work for, for the people, including people because governments behave badly, would leave people without protection, which is the last thing i would like to see a commissioner of human rights engaging with the ordinary people. marginalize people is the main issue for me when you're doing a lot of monitoring, then protecting these days though on to you're not, you're not the people in turkey, for instance, last year,

nearly 26000 people were in jail, awaiting trial on terrorism charges that continue to be widely misused and used in fact to restrict free expression of association. they're not protected. i don't know. i mean they, you know, you're wrong here. you know, protection mean much more than just, you know, saying okay, i'm just going with the lord and i'm going to protect all those people. know people in turkey do feel protected by my office and me personally, they see my office as always is where they can complain and seek protection. and this happened on, on many occasions i was given access, as i already stated, to present to see an estimate please release now. and i do try to engage in the government, the government on the issue of human rights defenders and journalist center

numerous cases before the court. but it's not an easy task. but at the same time, it is honorable and it gives me even more energy to, to engage, to try to help people helping one individual can also change a lot in any country. but you're right. he stated the previously that at the moment, the do not leave him a good time for human rights. human rights and elected pushed under the carpet by many governments. ultra conservative groups are targeting civil society and human rights defenders. and this is a said, why are we facing this situation? as i already said, it's a question for the callers never collect the need to continue working. well, it's also a question. you can't just blame the governments, can you?

what about the people who put them there? what happens when free elections empower politicians who then take away their rights? what then? what then? well, the question is also the election over 3 unfair? it's not the case all the time. you have many reports from credible international organizations, including parliamentary assembly of the council of europe stating that certain election a certain date. but everything but not free and fair. so you end up with the governments, want to stay forever neglect human rights. and this is something we should not hello, i have a mandate for 47 members of the council of europe and differences are huge, but no date is immune to violations of human rights. and documenting this and pointing out and working together with people can bring results not overnight,

but the fact that the fact is the autocrat. so winning on fe when you look back through the centuries, it's repression. that's the enduring constant, not democracy. and now that repression is back with a vengeance, and we have to face that fact. don't we? yes that's, that's true. but i would not say that the article be winning. there are examples. and we should listen to different voices into society. but you should not use those voices that are spreading like fake news targeting human rights defenders generally civil society in order to, to win bolts. who should not use this as a excuse for not doing enough. but what i think is also important is that all international innovation should use the situation now and try to push

for changes by putting human rights into the guy and i stand. but very briefly, if you keep sounding the alarm bell and nothing improves and it hasn't been improving as we pointed out over the last 15 years, it's been a steady decline. the danger is that people are going to stop listening on thing. there was, i was a klein, but i disagree that there was no progress and there were no issues related to right . that's improved in many member states. if you look at the situation to down to b t, i see when it comes to women's rights, i mean we are still fighting. the struggle is present, but it's the change for better. if you look at the rama communities in many days, they were examples of, of success and moving forward. so it's not just, you know, completely, you know, really great situation that we need to just accepted and say,

okay, be fair. no, we did not. all right, activates, i'm afraid we're out of time. thanks very much for being with us and conflict, so thank you. thank you. thank you very much. the news. the news? the news news. the news

the news, the the news ah, the news. ah me oh oh,

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working with communities to protect forests for the future we want. if you're hearing what we're hearing, find out more the news . this is the w 9 from burn in america, super rich pay almost no income tax u. s. media report based on leaked tax return has been as including jeff pays office and musk regularly avoid tax legally also on the program. the us president joe biden lands in the u. k. at the stuff an 8 day mission to rebuild transatlantic tides following the trump era is 1st foreign ship as

president will include the g 7 summer under meeting with the russian president.