how does the virus spread? why do we panic by and when will all this 3 of the topics that we covered and i weekly radio. if you would like any more information on the kroner virus or any other science topics, you should really check out our podcast. you can get it wherever you get your podcast. you can also find us at w dot com, forward slash science. let me hello, and today we're talking about the catholic church and the abuse of power. this, after the highly influential cardinal reinhardt mugs offered his resignation to pope frances, citing the catastrophe of sexual abuse by church officials. meanwhile, shock and grief in canada after mass graves of indigenous children are discovered as a former catholic rung school. on to the point we ask catholic church how and abuse

of power the news? well, thanks very much indeed for joining us here on to the point where my guest in the studio and a job is a professional musician and church activist who says instead of a structural reform, we need to re focus on the actual aim of the christian faith. which faith is eternal life? also witnesses max cap at the anchor, dominican priest, and for many years church journalist, he believes that the church should not be afraid of change and it won't come through to mathias catch from the abuse survivors. organization tish, who wants that. it's high time for the church to really listen to the voices of the

victims. interesting stuff so much to talk about. thank you all 3 for being with me today. and i'd like to begin with you, father max and the letter of resignation from cardinal remarks to pope francis. it was fascinating that he used the language that he said a dead end had been reached in the catholic church in germany. what do you think he meant there? i, when i heard about it, i was shocked by the wording because that and as harsh is really also very encouraging. and i was wondering what, what led him to use these words and he didn't explain. it's more what you guess my personal opinion is you know, in germany the catholic church started the reform process some years ago cause you know that of aches submittal path. exactly. and. and they are discussing 2

different issues like power use of power or the role of the women in the church. how priest should live and and the discussions come often to a point where then it says, oh, it's not possible because the church so it doesn't allow the church doesn't allow it all the mexican never allowed it. and if we talk in this way, we can never change anything. and so it kind of frustration also in the people is growing and maybe also in the cardinal. and i think that this is meant by that and, and of course mathias couch the, the, the pope has rejected the offered resignation. what do you read into that? how do you, what's your understanding of what that tells us? but 1st of all, the language used by mike's in his statement was very surprising because for the

very 1st time, a bishop in germany used the word i in combination with responsibility, the abuse crisis. the fact that the pope rejected it, i think, would complicate issues because the high respect we as so bible's head for this step of mikes to step down. now we will focus on his role in the past and the diagnosis of trio and munich. because he also was part of the system and i'm pretty sure we will learn about his failures and arrows in the past . and maybe he will have to repeat his resignation to the pope after the learn more about the investigation. and i know i'd like to ask you to you from an initial, an initiative called maria, 1.0. want to tell us

a little bit about what your organization is all about and how you read the current situation with this dramatic development surrounding cardinal marks. well actually yeah, and no 1.0 developed as a response to maria seconds, pushing 2.0. and we think that the mother of god doesn't need an actual ation. she doesn't need a number, it's mary. and the church is the church and of course we, we like development. we are not against development. we are not against reform. actually it's exactly the opposite. we think that reform is very, very important. but we think that the source of it must be a 3rd. so renewal, and you mentioned maria to point 0 into their goals as i understand it's equal rights for women, especially including lift liturgical rights, what's,

what's the problem or what turned the car? right. every believer has to return to co rights to, to celebrate the liturgy, to be part of it, and to take part in this divine worship. and then we are all equal. so this whole idea of equality, meaning men and women do exactly the like the same things. i think this is a very simplifying idea, which doesn't it doesn't take into account what the church actually is. it's not about equality, it's about having eternal life in jesus and living with jesus and i are the women are not less called my vocation isn't less. yeah, it doesn't mean less. mrs. kids would be interested to hear what you have to say. but what, unfortunately, the church is all a power structure and you have

a hierarchy. you have the highly hierarchical structure of paula and abuse of power and every sexual abuse which occurred thousands and thousands of times not only in germany, but all over the world. by catholic priests and clerics were also a power abuse. so when we talk about the church and the structure of the church and the responsibility of the bishops and the pope and the copy north, then we need to talk about the power structure. i don't want to talk about church reform. this is something the church, the believers have to discuss. i can say i was a catholic and i was abused because i was catholic. but my interest is the situation of the so i'm us of the victims.

and i want to make sure as member of the civil society that this cannot repeat in the future. okay, let's just get one on 2 from now because i think, i wonder how much, how dismaying you find that the church that you are a member of and is such an important pillar of your, of your own personal life that has led so many people down over such a long period of time, it's horrible. it's simply horrible. and i think i do not disagree with you. i think we all agree that this is terrible and that we need to be clear about it and the truth should be in the center of investigation. but i think that the interesting thing is that in germany we are talking a lot about power now. but actually if we listen to what the church actually teaches about power, we learn that according to what jesus wants from us, he wants that power actually consists in service and is serving people. and if the people who committed abuse would have fitted the actual things jesus preaches,

and the church preaches, they acted against the church. they didn't act with the church or with the churches, ideas, they acted grossly against it. and so what i'm missing in this discussion is to take the perspective jesus took he he, he changed the system of power because he was crucified. so now how is not ruling kelly? ok. ok boy, good point. well taken, let's just go back to 1st of all the, to cardinal marx. he is, is we have seen one of the leading figures in germany's catholic church is a household lave indeed. let's find out a little bit more about the man and his his mission. and then we'll talk about the, the pope's reaction to it all. cardinal hind hard marks is seen as a modern either in the catholic church. he wants more acumen ism, but above all, he wants a thorough clarification of the abuse scandal. marks has heard the victims and

regrets, but he himself did not do enough to protect them. according to a study catholic, clergy and germany have sexually abused at least $3677.00 children. since the end of world war 2, the number of unreported cases is likely much higher. but clarification has been slow mark, i believe the church is at a dead spot and that there need to be consequences. escape recognizing on the one hand, the failure of individual official and also responsibility for the institution itself. whose job is that? only the bishop can do it for the past, for the time before me as well over the side for me and the archbishops offer to resign this the wrong person have to go. so cardinal marks offered to resign. that route. that offer has been rejected as we have to understand it by

the pope. now, what does that, what does that mean? because i think many people had pinned the hopes on cardinal boxes. perhaps a man for the future of the church for galvanizing the future of the church. we don't know what the pope left to his decision, but i personally think that he would have accepted the recognition if he thinks that he has no moral authority any more to leave his dietetics and by not accepting it. he says ok, lead your flock. take your responsibility in this way by staying in your job. and i personally enforce my wish that the pope would not accept a resignation. and, and i hope he will go on this way to, to learn how to deal with these problems because he really developed himself. if he

said he's now saying things 3 years ago, he was not able even to think about. for example, for example, one thing he was asked 3 years ago, did any bishop think about present to resign? after all happened and she said no. but he said it in the way, know how day you too asked me. and now he said, oh, this worked was inside him and she was really concerned by the fact that we should think about these things. and, and that shows that he realizes that there is a deeper responsibility of the bishops. anna is, sir, is cardinal marks. the a man that you can identify with in terms of taking the church forward into the future. this is a complicated question. well, i'm not in the seas of munich, so he's not here. but yes, i think that of course,

every bishop can leave the church forward. i think it's the question of how they take responsibility. and i actually was disappointed by going to your us, your sounding just a little bit as a so you very cautious about about going. do you believe that the church can be it is the church willing to learn? is the church willing to become a listening organization? because so many people say it's so far hasn't been a listening organization. i think i am not a victim or a survivor of any abuse. i'm not the person to ask there. i do not know if the church is listening to those people. i have the impression that you are listening more and more. but i do not know if this is the truth. this is what i perceive it's and also a, well, the church is not an organization that is a personal, it's strictly personal. we always have to deal with persons with all their

abilities and talents, but also with the lack of perspective, we are all week persons. so i think it simply depends on the bishop and i think that it was very disappointing, that he offered his resignation. instead of leading the flock through this difficult time. and also we do not have the reports from trio, nor from munich so well he should wait until the if we have those reports so that he can really take the responsibility he ought to. while we have reclaims from survivors from trio and also from unique and we know that he mishandled cases of child sexual abuse by priest in the past. to what extent we will learn when the reports come out. but i think the, the difference i see here is i look at the church as an organization and from an

organizational point of view, i think the debt and is the intention of the church to deal with the crisis by itself. especially here in germany to investigate, to clarify things by itself, and rejecting and external investigation like we had this by royal commissions, in australia as an example. and this has come to under that and because we have more than one year now the discussion in cologne. and the cardinal there is defending himself and his actions with one and another. and another cutting out a book, a study by law. yes, he hired to defend himself. and this is not the way how this crisis can be clarified and investigated. and it should be investigated from outside, but the studies are not internal and it was 2 studies. so 2 studies actually clear

to me of personal guilt, at least. yeah, but i mean, the lawyers do look for them and they create, i paid them, he paid them and they criticized us like the bishop of hamburg and other bishops in cologne. but not the cardinal loki who paid for the studies pay for personally. let's go somewhere else with the tensions in the discussion or it's like, let's go now from germany to canada, where there is greece and outrage this after the remains of over $200.00 young boys and girls were discovered in the grounds of a former catholic run residential school for indigenous children in british columbia. the catholic residential school in kamloops british columbia was one of the largest of its kind and was run until 978. it is not yet known how the children

died there. the boarding schools indigenous children were torn from their families in order to christianize them according to investigations, violence and sexual abuse by staff was commonplace. as a dad, i can't imagine what it would feel like that my kids taken away from me. and as prime minister, i am appalled by the shameful policy that stole indigenous children from their communities. demanding an apology from the catholic church, but none has been issued to date, municipally, this weekend. together with the catholic church of canada. it's pretty me, i would like to express my sympathy to the people in canada that all my who are traumatized by the shocking, the actual content of the tier. why does the catholic church find it so difficult to bear responsibility?

on a distressing story, a very, very distressing store in this difficult question. a suggestive question is why just the church find it so difficult to bear responsibility? i don't think that you can talk about the church in terms of responsibility because it's people who fail and especially in this case, i think it's a great just how this cases already. even though we have little facts is already instrumentalist, those victims, already instrumentalist, to make points against the church. even though it was the canadian state to actually implemented those of racial races policy off, taking children from the families not to christianize them to, to assimilate them to the white population. and so

to ask an apology. well, 1st you should ask an apology of the state who implemented those racist policies. and then of course, the church has to wonder which, how, how could she let herself be instrumental in such a way to help those politics to explicitly against so many attempts to, to actually value indigenous culture. what the deal with did, for example, they did so much for indigenous people and to, to save their cultures. so how could the church be so compromised with politics? and i think this is an interesting question. it is all about politics to this is not, this is not exclusively about the church as a spiritual organization. this is about the church as a, as in an organization that wheels a great deal of power. i think returning to the debt point. building used by cardinal mark. i think the church as the concrete structure

of power, of organization and of doctrine. we should talk also about the doctrine of the church. this historic combination has come to an debt and, and i think it has to be changed. it has to died, maybe to, to live on. it has no future and the way it worked in the past. and i think this is the moment we are living. now, how does, how does the doctrine come in there? i mean, doctrine clearly says that the priest, the someone who's service so this is what the doctrine says. change. yeah, i mentioned that i was abused because i was the catholic and we have investigated in australia also in germany and in the royal commissions that there is

a combination between sexual moral morality power. the whole thing of the sacrament of reconciliation, the understanding of sinful behavior. all this is doctrine, this is not a live. don't be lation of, of this belief. and the way how the church acts and the priests acted. and this leads to this catastrophe. so you can change only the organization and you also have to talk about the law. so the check was in the next. let's print them. i seem to tell you this week when i was reading up on the story, that was one sentence that kept coming back to me that i found quite remarkable. and it was the observation that in germany, the word god is disappearing. it's a contentious statement. it's a contentious assertion, but it appears possibly to be true, and i think that's a significant backdrop for the discussion we're having here. what do you say for

the marks anyway, what i don't agree because even in berlin, which is considered as an essay to face pick city, i discover the presence of god in the hidden way everywhere. so because with my eyes of faith, i can see the presence. but what is changing and i think that's really important to, to the, the power of the church is going down. the church in the past has had the structure and influence a power which is now lost and we have to accept it and, but it's positive because in this way we can focus more on the essence of faith. and it's not about structure. it's not about money thought about power and to go to and considering the canadian case. i also think that's something linked to

politics the past. but i think the church should be the 1st one to knowledge the failures. and we should be the champions of acknowledging that we have something done something wrong, agreed there, but i need to agree with both of you because what you're painting, the image of the church is the church you wish to have. i talk about the church i experienced and still survivors all over the world and i know the saliva movement and canada. well, because we have to be to get, we have been together in room 2019 with cutting on the market. by the way the church is still fighting against the survivors when they ask for the truth. when they ask for money when they ask for help. so the power and the money is still there and it's used against bibles, not only in germany, but all over the world,

asked the people in poland, in italy and spain. so i understand, and i highly respect the vision of the different church for the future, but it's not actually what the experience is about right now. i think you, you say you respect this vision, but actually you are saying that it is a vision, but maybe it is just the church as we experience it. and i don't think that you can literally, it's our experience against yours. i think this is not the way we should do it because we are in this church together, those survivors who remained in the church in the church together. and i think it's very important not to try to emulate one perspective against the other. they are both valuable perspectives and they are true for themselves because everyone experiences what he experiences you can say, well, i experienced, but what you experience is not your experience. the vision was theory, in fact,

and this and sorry for fact for example, that church lose this power. this is a fact, it's not a vision. and i also agree that it's a good thing because then we can concentrate on the gospel. and i think that actually what you are demanding is going to develop out from this loss of power were running as a time. i'd like to hear your vision in 30 seconds for the church of the future. i believe in a church of the poor for the poor, a church that tries to do god's will in all things we're running out to trying to say we're gonna have to leave it there. but that's a good vision for the future. thanks for the vision to sit in saint peter's square with the saliva from all over the world and the church and the pope and the bishop listening to us. great fishing to i'm so sorry that we did. i agree totally. i would be really happy. one of the stuff we've been talking about the future of the catholic church is a controversial juncture and its history. thanks very much for being with us there

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