jewish life, that's what from the producer and journalist cuban moment, are exploring, delving into history and the presence nice because i would never have thought that you did and could be live. so. and so i live in europe. the 2 part documentary starts july 5th on d w. the news. this is, of course, most unfortunate. tragic is that's the government's plan to punish the victims we want to highlight the negative stuff even when there's no evidence the government bands, twitter. can you explain that most? as a democratic system and government, my dear, has been making headlines for all the wrong reasons. lately,

kidnappings and violence are on the rise of large areas of the country, and they talk of a spiraling security crisis and citizens cope with unemployment and inflation. presidents will hurry, is getting attention for blocking twitter and for an apparent violent crack on protesters to call for an end to police violence. my guess this week from berlin is nigeria and ambassador used to guard. how does he explain the track record of this government as he tries to attract is badly needed investment to africa, the largest economy, the ambassador to go, welcome to conflict zone. thank you for having me. nigeria is said to be facing a spiraling security crisis, terrorism, kidnappings, inter communal violence dramatically on the rise in recent month as president to hurry, lost control. certainly not. he has not lost control. he has done

a lot in terms of security. when he came into office in 2016 book, her on the north east was holding about 18 local government areas today. it doesn't hold a single local government area. however, it does not mean that the violence being and least why a walk around, for instance, has ended. so it has continued to move and strike and run away. it's a very difficult terrain. so it's not surprising that it is stretched out, as indeed such conflicts stretch out in other countries. but mr. investor, when, when you look at the sheer numbers though, the situation does not appear to be improving. in fact, in the 1st 3 months of this past year, it's been reported more than $2800.00 violent killings around the country in the media. and there's also of course, the repeated kidnappings of school children. i mean, this is what really has been making international headlines in may, for example,

more than 130 school kid, some as young as 7 years old, were kidnapped in broad daylight in niger state. what do you tell those parents? this is of course, most unfortunate. it's tragic. it is not what we're hoping for. government is doing its best to bring this to an end. it's not been easy because of the decades of male lives in nigeria, that this administration is looking to correct. and the negative media report sometimes also show you these acts of violence, the kidnapping, the terrorism. so it's a media's fault. it's the media's fault that there's an estimated $700.00 students kidnapped for ransom since december in your country. that's not what i'm saying. certainly not. it's not the media's fault, but it has for the future some of violence as we've seen of recent. you have to

bear in mind that nigeria is the most populous country in africa. it's a nation of 200000000 people. so certainly there would be actual violence, there would be all sorts of issues, particularly since we have endured years of of, of under development, which this administration is looking to reverse. you mentioned that the government is taking action. i want to look at some of that action because the senate is considering making it illegal to pay ransom to kidnappers. is that the government's plan to punish the victims the parents in the face of the government's own inability to provide security for their children? what is the niger a practices, a democratic system of government? you have the principalship formation of power. you have an executive

legislative, an independent judiciary, a bi camera legislature. so it's not every single action that is that should be attributed to either the president or the executive view. it has several moving parts. it has several clubs in the democratic wheel. but mister ambassador, do you think that this is a useful law? does the president think that this is a useful law? do you think that parents who fear for the life of the child could really be prevented from paying ransom by law from governments that is not capable of protecting the children in the 1st place? is this useful? we practice is a deliberative democracy where is discourse and within that framework of discourse, we eventually come up with a position. this is how democracy works and this is what is happening in nigeria, which is the most populous country in africa. it's a country of 200000000 people,

so you cannot just take decisions by fear at so you're not, you're not taking position on that. that's what i'm hearing from you. let's look at the overall. i'm allowing the process to i'm allowing the process to, to take its course. okay. let's look at the overall situation. a lot of these kidnappings and violence, they're happening in the north. of course, the military there. let's look at their strategy, their regrouping troops into super pam's or, or garrison towns where they wait to repel the attacks rather than go on the offensive against the militants militants, for example, like, like, boca whoa rom in their hi that. can you explain that what these bob, some of the techniques on the strategies employed in a symmetric warfare which takes place in different parts of the world. niger is not unique when it comes to that. you have to bear in mind that your often taking more than an invisible enemy that's continuously on the move. i'm sure.

where in germany here, i'm sure the, by the winehoff was taken on, you know, using similar strategies or the iris, or, you know, several other insurgent roots and inter is groups that government have had to take on in the pos. so why shouldn't be unique? yeah, but the point mr. ambassador is that we are looking at the situation specifically in nigeria and in nigeria. do you admit that it has left a significant portion of the population quite exposed to this particular strategy? i mean, you have the u. n, for example, thing, but it's making it difficult to get internally displaced. people aid. you have leading security organizations saying that these vocal, hiram's factions that these affiliated, you know, and similar groups are taking advantage of the space can created by the super cap military strategy. and they're moving around more freely. they're building support, they're building their networks. you have to bear in mind that this is

a conflict that is taking place in a very difficult terrain. as i said earlier, within a very complex cross border area where 4 african countries meet, where there are hundreds of islands due to the receding late chad. so you know, it's not that straightforward. you can also, if you want focus on the receptor the, the return of, of individuals that have been living in internally displaced camps to, to towns and villages. that is all equally happening. so it's, you know, while, while some might be moving to internally displaced camps, others are moving back home. so it's a very complex thing and it's very dynamic and it's for ever changing the state of your military capacity is also in question. the senate has confirmed that massive recruitment procurement of equipment is needed for the security forces. resources

are said to be stretched thin. so why has the government failed to even secure the best equipment for the military? i mean that the pledges from too hard to crush these armed groups, aren't they just empty words? if you don't have the resources, we haven't been able to, as much as we want, because many of the manufacturing countries would not sell it to us. you know, we've had to contend with certain ag, such as the lizzie act and, and several others in countries and the negative propaganda sometimes that is unfairly used to label the niger and military as committing abuses. and what, how do you, i'm that is highlighted instead of the positive acts that should be associated with them. so again, it's the fault of others. so, so just tell me then, because i'd like to move on to another thing or what i'm saying. and i know what i'm saying, well, i mean, you're saying it's very one for security. perhaps you can clarify for us,

you know, what the priority is in the country. the priority is to address most of these issues holistically and to tackle the root cause instead of the symptoms. this is what the niger and government is trying to do. so some of the root causes of violence of insecurity happen to be poverty, a lack of effective governors at the local government level. and this is what the nigerian government is trying to tackle. we have a social investment program, you could talk about it, it's a, it's a noble cause you could focus on something like that. certainly have to make the choice whether to buy, to spend more on on weapons or whether to spend on solving the issue of problem. and we're going to learn about weapons many often, most often where we're not sold the ones that we need. and mr. ambassador,

we're going to talk about the economy. i assure you, in our conversation. so we will be returning to that. but i just like to ask you 1st about the state of human rights in the country because, you know, it's not just a tax in the north kidnapping. you have, you know, many hotspots all over the country. and in response to some attacks blamed on separatists, for example, in the south east, the military has launched operation restore peace, hardy set on twitter. we have given the police and the military, the power to be ruthless, the power to be ruthless. what does that mean? it just means what every country, every government believes that we're living in a way that is primarily defined by nation states, sovereign nation states. and the sovereign nation states are meant to have the monopoly of violence. so that non state actors will not unravel such countries and unleash may him and death,

and murder and my in such territories. this is what every country does. but i think the concern among, among many is that there are these previously documented evidences of mass extra judicial killings by securities in this region in particular. so the question is, when do harvey says roofless? is that what he means? extrajudicial killings, it's happened before. that's certainly not what he means because he has used the same phrase with regards to the violence way by banded and by, by terry, by terrorist activities in north eastern nigeria in northwest and nigeria. it applies to the whole country. wherever you have non state actors, you see there's no states, if a country, if, if groups or individuals or power was

that do not subject themselves to the jurisdiction of a nation state, allowed to dictate the cause of political life in nobody that, that country see this break this but that's what we're talking about. and we're talking about the approach of the military in terms of, you know, handling the secessionist movement and these, these particular groups that you are targeting. i mean, see, says you have a reckless and a trigger. happy approach to crowd control and it's not only when it comes to this particular area. in fact, i'd like to ask you about another incident. there were reports of at least 12 civilians killed when forces shot at police at people. protesters excuse me. at leki toll plaza in lay goes back in october. is this the strategy that your forces use to help calm protests, peaceful protests in the country shooting

a peaceful civilians with live ammunition. ok. fortunately, this report that i know you've done your homework. what unfortunately, this report happens to be the very same report that was exposed to be untrue by none other than the state department of the united states. they had their own investigation and said the report was untrue. well, sir, i have not seen that, but, but i have heard from you, sir, i have not seen that report, but i have heard from, from the un high commissioner for human rights, michelle bachelor, and she has a position of authority. as you know, she says quote, there is little doubt that this was a case of excessive use of force, resulting in unlawful killings with live ammunition by nigerian armed forces. the state department report is easy to access. you can google it online. it's that it's, it contends that that report that you are referring to is inaccurate and to date,

there has not been any substantial proof just to show otherwise. well, you know, your prove that let them then let me, let me follow terry. it's easy to cherry pick and decide you want to highlight the negative stuff, even when there is no evidence and you don't, you cannot use, you know, reports that i churned out. bye bye, bye, bye bye, by the united nations and the united nation. make know, this is our thing in your country. they said in the incident. witnesses sometimes said that c c t v. cameras and lights were switched off shortly before soldiers opened fire on peaceful protesters. the un says this indicates a disturbing level of premeditation. your government has apparently set a panels of inquiry to look into. there's to look into other incidence by you know, a group of your security forces. which right crusade routinely practice torture.

i just like to ask you, you know, how, how can the public trust that they will. but you will really get to the bottom of what happened when it seems as if you don't want to really look at it. the nigeria and the niger and public, the overwhelming majority of jeron public trusts that the government than i do and government will get to the bottom of it as it always does. but sadly, due to lobby is due to fake ends. you are due to fake websites due to the equity was created on social media where needs reactions follow such incidents the, the substantial segment or section of the western media. and so such countries get the long mr. mr. law and this, subsist on it, mr. or i think we can both agree though that there were protesters who were there

and what they were there for was to protest against police brutality, especially from the elite unit called sars. which writes, i think we could be really broad store jurors for torture, ill treatment, extrajudicial killings. let me ask you, why were there no charges brought against members of this unit? earlier? these abuses are well documented itself was disbanded, the unit itself was be disbanded, but the evidence of torture could re dated but not for you. you can't cherry pick what to highlight. sorry, excuse me. you contrary picks what to highlight when it comes to the area you are not in general or perhaps you are not aware that when this very same unit size was created in response to an armed robbery in lay was in the ninety's that this course of action was celebrated. so now it's our

lives, it's use and when there were protests and complaints and petitions, president how much it re bonded it. he brought it to an end. he did it, but then he created a unit swat in the same breath to replace it. so the question is, if you haven't addressed, if you haven't brought charges in the past, who can really trust that this new unit will be any different? and as you know, that is that is the question that a lot of people in your country in fact are asking because there's still judicial panels of inquiry that are taking place looking into these allegations of abuse. we're not saying we have a perfect police force just as is the case in most countries or in every country, i should say, you would have bad eggs that would do things that are not sanctioned by the government, but it does not. it does not mean that the only course of action is to highlight

the negative, and mr. ambassador would clearly remain busy niger, react. nigeria operates a democratic still on government. like i said. so let me about some offers all the rule of law we uphold. so let's talk about the model. earlier this month, the government band, twitter. can you explain that move? i can explain it because the simple explanation is that niger, as i said, operates a democratic system of government. we've had 6 successive elections every 4 years in a since 999. 1 of the, the, the important, the most one of the most important norms of, of democracy is freedom of speech which nigeria of holt's, which nigeria celebrates which idea for techs. but you cannot use, you cannot allow that. 3 certain elements to use those

democratic, mr. ambassador, i want to add why? so it wasn't it because the platform took down president to harvest tweet for violating its abuse for me, their policy and no, that's not the reason. the reason why it was shut down. it was because twitch has been airing pictures, videos, and the vituperation of, of people that i look into and robert nigeria, which, while and many people are looking at the situation in a tweet with the burning later twitter with band is this the proportionate response. and now we have the attorney general ordering the immediate prosecution of offenders of the federal government ban on twitter. so it's twitter users now that your government is going to probably, i said, your own citizens. that's why, as i said earlier, as i said earlier, sadly, regret, regrettably,

this cherry picking approach creates the wrong narrative. if you go back to 2019, you will see that further mama to body has been consistent about the adverse effect of social media. when it chooses not to be responsible, their real life the real world. but the question is whether banding proportionate robots builder and band center. and right now the rank one, china and north korea, iran on issuing a band on twitter g. do you feel comfortable in that company? can i just make the point i was trying to bake? if you go back to 219 president mama to address the word the united nations general assembly. he spoke about the christ church attacks and the, the negative effect of live streaming of such violent acts and,

and encouraging terrorist groups and, and, and violent groups to, to have that space within social media which spreads others on into actual violence. this is no less different than that. so what has been consistent when it comes to that? but you are, you are forgetting what he, what you said in plenty 19 and just looking at his reaction was social media as a week after a very prominent politician was killed in south eastern nigeria. a few days after the i called a few days after i pub had burnt. electro commissions offices in the same region. mr. ambassador, the move people were reaction players. let's look at the international reaction because canada, the e. u, the u. k, the u. s. they have all condemned this twitter band, i mean the,

the u. s. as it has no place in a democracy. don't you need foreign investments to help build your economy? we need for an investment. we also need for those countries to be mindful of the fact that i pub, and such groups have been engaging lobby firms like mercury public affairs, for instance, that it's paying $85000.00 a day to churn out, such negative stuff to, to go and a full court press on us senators and, and prominent people, prominent politicians so that they will create this negative narrative about nigeria and which is far from the truth. and those who are on ground know that. and the, for instance, the british high commissioner in the area is aware of that because now she's on the receiving end. she's being threatened by the same. i pulled my number, you can with the lead of april. and mr. ambassador,

i'd like to ask you because i mean what, what is clear is that the economic situation in the country is not good. unemployment has more than quadrupled sins to hurry, took office more than half of young people can't find jobs in the next. that's more than half of your population that is under the age of $24.00. and furthermore, nearly half of adult say that they plan to move to another country within the next 5 years. half of adults want to leave the country within the next 5 years. with whom do you plan on building the future of your country? with nigeria, as we've always done, we have an economic downturn just like other countries in the world. it's important to remember that we're living through a global pandemic. nigeria, unfortunately has dependent depended overwhelmingly on foreign exchange coming from crude oil sales. this current government is looking to

diversify nigeria economy. the last general and economics with figures like this, do you risk a lost generation? no, we don't. which is why we're where we've put our heads down and we're diversifying nigeria economy. if you look at the plans that we have in place, the national economic plans that we have in place that diversifying look at what is happening, look at the rice revolution going on and look at the foot. eliza blending that is going on in nigeria. look, as i said earlier, the social investment program look at the 2nd major bridge, look at the rail projects, look at the gas pipeline projects. look at what humans is doing with regards to electricity. these are the things that you should look you'd be looking at. look at also the media and entertainment sector. nigeria is one of the fastest growing

when it comes to that. these are the sort of things that you'd be concentrating on, inflammation and digital technology ambassador to that we have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us on conflicts down. been a pleasure. thank you for the the who's the news? the news news

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