as we take on the world, we're all about the stories that matter to you. the police and the we are here is actually on fire for mines in the joe biden has concluded his 1st trip abroad as us president and the exact same schedule. he met with friends and he met with foes intensive told with his russian counterparts. let me put him in geneva bite and cast himself as an advocate of liberal values based democracy. he also highlighted what he sees as the military

and economic threat posed by russia and above all china. so on to the point, we asked bite and wounds russia and china, but his europe on board the well, thanks very much indeed for joining us on the show where my guest here in the studio, leanna fakes a russia expert from the curb, a foundation who says the biden putin summit is not only about confrontation, it is also an opportunity for most ability between washington also witnesses, matthew snake, chief europe correspondent for political his opinion. if he fails to achieve a common approach to russia and china with the u. s, the west is doomed. down the warm welcome to to sir g fan brunner some from d. w is a desk. when you search the us,

china and russia have more in common with each other, and europe should not take sides. interesting. come until 3. thanks very much. thank you very much to for being here. and i'm going to begin with you matthew. it's been a very intense week of diplomacy for joe biden in europe. we had a better place now that we were before all the talking began. i think so, i think he made clear that the united states remains very dedicated to europe and wants to keep the alliance intact and is hoping that the europeans will join him in confronting both russia and china in the years ahead. and there seems to be at least an openness to these ideas in terms of the atmosphere with russia. i think he also succeeded in calming the waters a bit. i don't think the 2 of them are not, but they're not going to be best buddies. they didn't look into one another's eyes initially, their souls, they shook hands and had

a fairly cordial but frank meeting i would say for smile. and it's not that easy yet, leon. and you talked about it being the, the meeting and prospect for and you said it should move, it should be about cooperation, not just confrontation. now everybody is talking about the us and russia entering what is called strategic stability dialogue. i gather this is very important for the inside, as i think it's very important that you explained it for us because he's right at the middle of what we're doing here. what we're talking about. yeah, that's exactly why the summit was a success because the us and russia decided to focus on those areas where they're most dangerous and most whisks and the area of nuclear weapons and limiting nuclear weapons. the last week the new start 20 was just prolonged last minute when biden came into office. that's on the agenda and that is meant by strategic stability. limiting nuclear weapons addressing new sweats like 5 buzzwords,

and new weapon systems that are developed right now. this is one of the most dangerous areas in the us, russia relationship for all of us. and that is why the so important that there was agreement, they repeated the wagon garbage, a statement, a nuclear watch should not be fought and cannot be one. that's a very important sign for both sides. it's not the most juicy, almost like the topic, but it is an incredibly important topic for the security of basically everyone on the swap. and so you just coming back to the mood, president biden is sometimes seen as a bit of a sort of a soft spoken diplomat, but he can, you know, he can be more confrontational. how do you see him? i see biden as a very in experience, politician. he has decades of experience as politician 1st as president, then as 5 as well as in local politics. and he's very careful and

calculated and cautious everything he stays largely, you know, scripted, it's edit and he is a huge contrast to donald trump, his predecessor. and i think that because trump alienated a lot of the international community with his characteristics, being very outspoken, i think biden has a lot of appeal actually as a politician in many countries outside of the us, for example, in asia. the way he kind of presents himself, you know, with a lot of east asian cultures, it's very, it has more respect. and i think people also need to pay attention to that journey . isn't that he's very much made the power struggle between the u. s. and china, his central are one of the central focuses of his foreign policy. what do you make that? i think that biden has been very, very clever. it was a very smart move. i think we can all agree that communicating with putin and even though you said it wasn't the most juicy, sexy kind of news. i think it is

a huge new forward in progress to kind of buddy up with russia for the 1st time in a long time. because we all know that allison in the room is china biden is mostly concerned about china. then he is about russia at the moment, and russia is traditionally china's ally. and so to kind of now be more open to cooperation. you know, just to attend the summit. i think he has put the whole waging kind of at edge and everyone's nervous in china. yes. you don't look as though you buy, you buy all of that, matthew? well, i think that kat to teen is actually under a lot of pressure when it comes to china. you know, it's worth remembering. the rush is a fairly small economy. it's about as big as the economy of spain. they have a lot of nuclear weapons which makes them very dangerous, but i don't think that anybody really thought that could. you would want to start

a nuclear war with the west or even this kind of arms race like we saw in the cold war, because that's also very expensive. although there have been some worries in the united states that the russians are developing new hypersonic weapons that would threaten the west. be that as it may, i think the, the real issue is, is china. i think the problem that putin has though with china is that he doesn't want to be too dependent on china. so the degree that to which he can calm things with the west, probably the better also. also in his view to be a little bit pessimistic. i think we are actually, we have to admit that we are already in an ways because both russia and the united states, modernizing the nuclear us and olds and developing these weapon systems. which is just to say that the focus of the summit was so important because we are already at a stage in this area where everyone is in danger. if some weapon systems further

develop. and that's also why fi but was such an important element of the summit by that gave put in a list of 16 critical infrastructure areas that should not be targeted by cyber tax. again, sounds very technical, but it's incredibly important to our daily life. i guess the problem in the reason i wouldn't sleep so sadly, is that the chinese are also developing these weapons and they are not party to the arm control agreements that date back to the cold war should be brought in into the, in the future. okay, well let's just listen to get to get a flavor of the 2 presidents as a, as a spoken in geneva. let's listen to 1st of all, joe biden. and then we'll hear what president putin had to say. and if in fact they violate these basic norms, we will respond cyber. he knows this, i'm boy number 2 i,

i think that the last thing he wants now is a cold war. feel of none yet natural ways of letting me put in said generally we understand what our american partners are talking about and they understand what we mean when we refer to read. lions, he added by the 2 sides have largely avoided touching on a divisive issue. definitely, leon, i was on the red lines that emerged from the talks that will much talked about in advance. what won't, you know, can you pin them down like a short list? electron. madeline is huge. red line for the united states. cyber attacks on critical infrastructure as i just mentioned, the grid line, obviously human wides, also the important topic and by and brought up the, the case of not only but that it's difficult to set what blind because how can you react to someone causes this sort of i mean, he made it very clear statement and believe that it wouldn't be very,

very problematic if not all the days and put them. but again, what is the we action that you can take to this action? so what they focused on where we as, where they, we could make progress in the other areas would disgust. but the focus now is uncertain. we as and to see with a positive development take place there. and from then we can take it to other areas possibly. and suji. how important do you think it is that there is a growing trash between the political cultures of the western model as it were, and then the eastern model of a liberal democracy? i think that, for example, opponents of the years centers and imperialism would say that it wouldn't be so much as a clash of political systems and cultures. because china has always been, for example, communist states since 949. and i think that all 3 of these economies,

both russia, the u. s. and china have huge human rights violations. and they have very different political systems. but all 3 are struggling with serving social justice back home. and i think that, you know, the main issue is actually the competition between competing economies by 3 countries that are led by 3 men that have, you know, frankly, a lot of hubris, arrogance, a bit of ego. if i'm, i say, and you know, they all want to be at the top of the world, you know, all 3 of them. and we are framing this as a kind of a clash of values over the world. you know, that's kind of dividing every one between east and west, between europe and the u. s. and asia. but in fact it's, so i think people should pay a little bit more attention that what we're actually seeing is a competition between 3 very greedy countries. all 3 of them and all 3 countries

have huge human rights abuses and social injustices. well, many ordinary americans might be asking themselves who the big enemy is these days for president bite, and there is no doubt that the greatest long term strategic challenge to america is china. a group photo with friends, the u. s. will desperately need them in the future. now, the nation's primary rival is china, a powerful upon the nato summit, sent out the message to the world that the ranks are tightly closed. before the summit, the pentagon had already ordered us troops to shift their focus to china. some of the measures will likely devote the higher of chinese president g g p. like the plan to trade agreement with high was for example. and a new multi trillion dollar infrastructure plant is meant to compete with china's

belt and road initiative that is working beyond that massive investments and technology are meant to encourage greater independence from chinese high tech product. biden also signed an executive order banning americans from investing in 59 chinese companies, but not all of the u. s. as partners agree with it's hard line approach. china is arrival and many issues. and at the same time, china is also a partner on many issues. can president biden rely on his allies in the confrontation with china, with, with just a question just a minute, but i'd like to go back to suji and just a few days ago, there was a headline in the atlantic magazine, the cold, my i joe biden, where is that china might when is he really to worry? what was, what would it mean for china to win? i think what by means and what us seeking is there they're worried about trying to

is global influence and chinese expansion. and they are worried about chinese companies, you know, overtaking american companies, which have always been very successful. the u. s. has always in their view, been at the top of the world leadership. and i guess they don't want to share that position. and china is now for the 1st time since she's in pain came to power. he's kind of transform china so rapidly because china used to be such a poor, impoverished country always with human rights violations, always for decades. china has always had a lot of human rights violations, but the problem is now china has actually become economically very successful in addition to math, human rights violations. and so my question i always ask is, you know, when china had the chinaman was mr. car, when there was the great famine of china,

where 45000000 people died. and in the culture revolution, when up to 1000000 people died, you know, the u. s. no one in the international community interfered and came to, to help the people, china and china was a poor country. they didn't have any high technology. they didn't have any scientific innovation at the time. people were leaving china, you know, in, in the millions we have a huge chinese diaspora around the world. and no one asked why, there's so many chinese people around the world. i don't think that biden is as cynical in his approach to china. i think he really has a deep seated believe the human. why do matter that this is? and he mentioned that the press conference that this is a part of u. s. foreign policy. so i think he doesn't only see it in terms of great power. do you politically competition with china, but he sees it as a competition of systems, especially chinese system has become more and more autocratic in the last 2 years.

so it's has taken a back what development to to, to where we've been in the past. and this is something which is not only a power play, but which is something which could be from mental for his put foreign policy. that he places an emphasis on democracy versus a talk with the and on challenging, challenging china if it becomes even more autocratic. review well, i would just say, i don't think that the united states necessarily is worried about china becoming number one. china is going to become number one is going to become the largest economy in the world. that's inevitable. not on a per capita basis. that never happened. i think the issue here, i mean you, you mentioned all of these historic wrongs that were committed against the chinese people. i think what the difference now is, is that china is threatening its neighbors. it's threatening its neighborhood, it's become a threat well beyond china's borders. and i think this is what his worried the united states. i also wouldn't mentioned the united states and it's human rights abuses to the degree that those exist in the same breath as china or russia. as far

as i know, the united states is not operating any concentration camps at the moment, like the one in st. john, i think the u. s. tried to partner with china and there was a hope in the west that through economic development and through prosperity, china would join the family of democratic nations that there would be a hunger in the chinese society for democratic reforms. and that hasn't happened to me that exists clearly in china, but it has been snuffed out. so this is why it has become this rivalry of sin systems. and this is why biden is concerned not just by this is a bipartisan issue to and wash a bite and share that with the european needs to bring the europeans onside the united states has tried to do this, i think with some success by explaining to the europeans and convincing them of the

danger that exists. and we saw this in this debate over 5 g network technology that the chinese company was way, was very eager to sell in europe, and is eager to sell in europe in the united states game. and tried to convince the european allies that if they were to take on this technology that they would be opening themselves to substrate use going forward by the chinese. and they've had mixed success on that front. but i think at least this issue of china is taking a much more central position in the european debate than it did even a year ago. i think just to add on this, it's also difficult to advances debate in europe because of the public mood and of the public perception of china, which is only shifting very slowly. so china is still not perceived as a threat in germany and also in many other european countries. and then we have an additional cannot make into, obviously, the business interests of china. and this together is something which sort of politicians have to consider when they take a strong approach to china,

to take that population with them and to explain to them why we have to change our china policy. and can you imagine she doing pain going into listening mode with joe biden in the way that's a lot of polluting, apparently did in the, in the last 24 hours also. well, i mean, it depends on what sort of, if that any, some, it's planned on this level. i mean that would be huge. a huge, huge occasion. i think what was good about the fight and put in some it is that they established a personal relationship which is not about trust, which is not about any will mantic friendship inclinations, but it's very much about put matic business. what can we get them together? what, where do we, not, we, and it's try to advance in those areas where we can agree, when you say, where you were often talking about germany. and the, i mean, the case against germany in this instance is that germany wants to sell cars to china. it's a one, it's pipe with russia, its destruction by an an upcoming election. and there's very little commitment to

making common calls with, with joe biden, in terms of defense spending. where does that leave? germany's, i wouldn't say there's very little commitment they've been germany, has raises defense spending not to the levels that the united states would see. but the fact is, germany is an exporting nation and always has been it is very dependent on export. it has an aging population, it can't easily just say, okay, we're not going to export anything more to china when you have big companies like b, w, and others that are almost completely dependent on, on china. and the united states is also economically dependent on china to a decrease. so i think this is why it's not useful to look at this through the frame of the cold war to say there's going to be another cold war because the symptom systems are already very closely intertwined. and the west needs to find a way to deal with china without completely cutting it off because that's just, that's just not possible. china is already many times larger than the soviet union ever was in terms of the size of its economy. and it's just growing even more so

she won't come china reasonably expect from the europeans in the, in the years to come specifically from the germans after their election in the near future. i think we also have to see what happens with our upcoming elections here in germany. you know, for example, with the greens upcoming and germany and china, they have to corporate. and everyone in germany knows that because climate change is also a huge problem and everyone knows that climate change cannot be address without china in the discussion. and so i think, and also germany and china has very strong trade relations. and neither one of them benefits from, you know, any kind of political dispute. so i think both countries need to really take into account, you know, social issues such as climate change and trading business and all the benefits they get from you. and kind of find ways to cooperate, just like to turn and bite and did,

and trying to show more get involved with european discussions, you know, get involved with more talks with europe so that people can kind of, you know, focus a little bit away from this competition, or who's number one, superpower? i mean, the, you know, they shouldn't really be any super power. you know, we should all find better ways to improve human rights to improve trade. and china has to be part of that discussions who tell me how perceptions in china about the, about issues around sort of liberal values and western values. what we large co western values. how those a, how those perceptions are changing, given that there's so much more movement for chinese people in the global situation . ok, i think that for example, europe and the us would benefit from, from understanding chinese culture more from understanding the history more the language. i mean, the reason i think people feel so alienated now in germany is because we don't actually have much contact direct contact with china and chinese people. and so if

we did, we would have this understanding that for a lot of chinese people, especially though my mother generation, for example, china went from complete poverty to this very successful economy. and so i think people to have this tendency in china to kind of have this compromise, can maybe we don't have freedom of speech. it's an oppressive states, but we have access to technology. we can find, we have this middle class in china now. and chinese people can study abroad now and travel before, you know, decade ago, china was completely closed. people didn't have these privileges like the people have in europe and in the u. s. and suddenly they want to taste of this pie as well, you know, and so i think chinese people don't want to go back backwards in their mindset and they are, you know, i'm not saying that happy to kind of go along with things. but you know, they,

that it is a fact that a lot of quality of life, a lot of people has improved. and i think people associate this with she didn't pain and all his social policy he's made in china. yeah. no. yeah. i think just, i think the problem really is that it seems that the leadership in beijing is not really interested in making human why it's part of any dialogue of any agenda. and well, there is a lot of dialogue going on with china and us will do it the many. oh is which should go on this very clearly, very strong pushback from aging on all issues with the west and europe criticized. this was good to say i could china, and this is something which should not be acceptable to an open dialogue between partners and countries. that some areas we be forcefully tried by aging to be cut out of, of dialogue to be cut out of negotiations and sanctions against members of the

european parliament who pick out against a human wide situation. and that is something which is so concerning the dialogue with china as important as it is, has become so much more difficult in the last years due to an increasing the autocratic development at home. and that is something which is so they change their entire approach to diplomacy. china used to have this sort of quiet diplomacy and didn't want to really be noticed too much. that was sort of my, my feeling in, in europe, in particular. and now they have these so called wolf boyer diplomats. you go out there just attacking people left and right. so i mean that has been a really a fundamental change. okay, thank you very, very much indeed for his impressions. views, great stuff. i wish i had just a little bit more time with the talking about china, russia, the us and the more really to surrounding the diplomacy between those countries. thanks very much for joining us. will you be joining program as much as i have come by next week about just

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