the, we don't want to see what they are, their right to be on the scene. our new global 3000 series about the threats we are facing. and the heroes taking a stand for global $3000.00 theories starts june 21st on d, w. me joe biden. has concluded his 1st trip abroad as us president exhausting schedule. he met with friends and he met with foes intensive talks with these russian counterparts. let me put it in geneva bite and cast himself as an advocates of liberal values based democracy. he also highlighted what he sees as the military and economic threat posed by russia and above all china. so on to the point we

asked biting, warns russia and china, but his europe on board the news. well, thanks very much indeed for joining us on the show where my guess here in the studio, leanna fakes a russia expert from the curb, a foundation who says the biden booting summit is not only about confrontation. it is also an opportunity for most ability between washington and moscow. also with us is matthew nick, chief europe correspondent for political opinion. if you fails to achieve a common approach to russia and china with the u. s. the west, duped sound the warm welcome to to search and found some from t w's asia desk, who argues that the us, china, and russia have more in common with each other,

and europe should not take sides. interesting, come until 3, thanks very much. thank you very much to for being here and i'm going to begin with you matthew. it's been a very intense week of diplomacy for joe biden in europe. we had a better place now than we were before all the talking began. i think so. i think he made clear that the united states remains very dedicated to europe and wants to keep the alliance intact and is hoping that the europeans will join him in confronting both russia and china in the years ahead. and there seems to be at least an openness to these ideas in terms of the atmosphere with russia. i think he also succeeded in calming the waters a bit. i don't think the 2 of them are not buddies. they're not going to be best buddies. they didn't look into one another's eyes and they shook hands and had

a fairly cordial but frank meeting i would say for a while and they just put it in that easy. liana, you talked about it being the, the meeting and prosper. and you said it should move, it should be about cooperation, not just confrontation. now everybody's talking about us and russia entering what is called strategic stability dialogue. i gather this is very important for the inside. as i think it's very important that you explained it for us because he's right at the middle of what we're doing here. what we're talking about. yeah, that's exactly why the summit was a success because the u. s. and russia decided to focus on those areas where they're most dangerous and most whisks and the area of nuclear weapons and limiting nuclear weapons. last week, the new start 20 was just prolonged last minute when biden came into office. that's on the agenda. that is meant by strategic stability, limiting nuclear weapons addressing new threats like cyber and few weapons systems

that are developed right now. this is one of the most dangerous areas in the us, russia relationship for all of us. and that is why it is so important that there was agreement, they repeated the way can go about a statement. nuclear watch should not be fought and cannot be one. that's a very important sign for both sides. it's not the most juicy, most sexy topic, but it is an incredibly important topic for the security of basically everyone on the salt. and so just coming back to the mood, president biden is sometimes seen as a bit of a sort of a, a soft spoken diplomat, but he can, you know, he can be more confrontational. how do you see him? i see biden as a very experienced politician. he has decades of experience as politician, 1st as president, then as 5, as well as in local politics. and he's very careful and calculated and cautious.

everything he stays largely scripted, it's edited. and he's a huge contrast to donald trump, his purchase tessa. and i think that because trump alienated a lot of the international community with his characteristics, being very outspoken, i think biden has a lot of appeal actually as a politician in many countries outside of the us, for example, in asia. the way he kind of presents himself, you know, with a lot of east asian culture, it's very, it has, it gives more respect. and i think people also need to pay attention to that too. and he's, he's very much made the power struggle between the u. s. and china, his central, one of the central, focuses of his foreign policy. what do you make is that i think that bite has been very, very clever. it was a very smart move. i think we can all agree that communicating with putin and even though you said it wasn't the most see sexy kind of new. i think it is

a huge move forward in progress to kind of buddy up with russia for the 1st time in a long time. because we all know the elephant in the room is china by that is mostly concerned about china than he is about rush at the moment. and russia is traditionally china's ally. and so to kind of now be more open to cooperation, you know, just to attend the summit. i think he has put the whole beijing kind of at edge and everyone's nervous in china. yes. you go look at so you buy, you buy all of that, matthew. well, i think the cat to teen is actually under a lot of pressure when it comes to china. you know, it's worth remembering. the rush is a fairly small economy. it's about as big as the economy of spain. they have a lot of nuclear weapons which makes them very dangerous. but i don't think that anybody really thought that putin would want to start a nuclear war with the west,

or even this kind of arms raised like we saw in the cold war. because that's also very expensive. although there have been some worries in the united states that the russians are developing new hypersonic weapons that would threaten the wet be that as it may. i think the, the real issue is, is china. i think the problem that putin has though with china is that he doesn't want to be too dependent on china. so the degree that to which he can calm things with the west, probably the better also. also in his view to be a little bit pessimistic. i think we are actually, we have to admit that we are already in an way. it's because both russia in the united states, a modern, i think the nuclear us and olds and developing these weapons systems. which is just to say that the focus of the summit was so important because we are already at a stage in this area where everyone is endangered, if some weapon systems further develop. and that's also why fi but was such an

important element of the summit by that gave put in a list of 16 critical infrastructure areas that should not be targeted by cyber tax. again, sounds very technical, but it's incredibly important to our daily life. i guess the problem in the reason i wouldn't sleep so soundly is that the chinese are also developing these weapons and they are not party to these arm control agreements that date back to the cold war should be brought in into the future. ok, let's just listen to get to get a flavor of the of the 2 president says as a spoken in geneva, let's get listen to 1st of all, joe biden. and then we'll hear what president putin had to say and contract a violate is basic norms. we will respond cyber. he knows this, i'm away. number 2. i. i think that the last thing he wants now is a cold war. fill them,

none of the natural phase of let me put in said generally we understand what our american partners are talking about and they understand what we mean when we refer to red lion spent the 2 sides have largely avoided touching on these devices issue and indefinitely. leon, i was on the red lines that emerged from the talk that will much talked about it advance, what will you know? can you pin them down elect to show list, electron meddling, huge red line for the united states. cyber attacks on critical infrastructure as i just mentioned, the grid line, obviously human why it's also important topic and by and brought up the, the case of not only but that it's difficult to set with blind because how can you react to someone causes this sort of man, i mean he made it very clear statement to believe that it wouldn't be very,

very problematic if not all the days and put them. but again, what is the we action that you can take to this action? so what they focused on where we as, where they, we could make progress and the other areas were discussed. but the focus now is uncertain. we as and to see where the positive developments take place there. and from then we can take it to other areas possibly. and so gee, how important do you think it is that there is a growing trash between the political cultures of the western model as it were, and then the eastern model as a liberal democracy? i think that, for example, opponents of the, your central and imperialism would say that it wouldn't be so much as a clash of political systems and cultures. because china has always been, for example, communist states since 949. and i think that all 3 of these economies,

both russia, the u. s. and china have huge human rights violations. and they have very different political systems. but all 3 are struggling with serving social justice back home. and i think that, you know, the main issue is actually the competition between competing economies by 3 countries that are led by 3 men that have, you know, frankly, a lot of hubris are against a bit of ego. if i'm, i say, and you know, they all want to be at the top of the world, you know, all 3 of them. and we are framing this as a kind of a clash of values over the world. you know, that's kind of dividing everyone between east and west, between europe and the u. s. and asia. but in fact it's, so i think people should pay a little bit more attention that what we're actually seeing is a competition between 3 very greedy countries. all 3 of them and all 3 countries have huge human rights abuses and social injustices. well,

many ordinary americans might be asking themselves who the big enemy is these days president by there is no doubt that the greatest long term strategic challenge to america is china. the group photo with friends, the u. s. will desperately need them in the future. now the nation's primary rival is china, a powerful opponent, benito summit, sent out the message to the world that the ranks are tightly closed. before the summit, the pentagon had already ordered us troops to ship their focus to china. some of the measures will likely to vote the i'm chinese president, g, g, ping like the plan to trade agreement with taiwan, for example. and a new multi trillion dollar infrastructure plan is meant to compete with china's belt and road initiative that is working beyond that massive investments and

technology are meant to encourage greater independence from chinese high tech product. biden also signed an executive order banning american from investing in $59.00 chinese companies. but not all of the u. s. partners agree with its hard line approach. china is arrival and many issues. and at the same time, china is also a partner on many issues pharmacy. can president biden rely on his allies in the confrontation with china, with, with just a question just a minute, but i'd like to go back to suji and just a few days ago, there was a headline in the atlantic magazine, the cold. my i joe biden worries the china might when is he really to worry? what was, what would it mean for china to win? i think what by means and what us seeking is there,

they're worried about china is global influence and chinese expansion. and they are worried about chinese companies, you know, overtaking american companies, which have always been very successful. the u. s. has always in their view, been at the top of the world leadership. and i guess they don't want to share that position. and china is now for the 1st time since she's in pain came to power. he's kind of transform china so rapidly because china used to be such a poor, impoverish country always with human rights violations, always for decades. trying has always had a lot of human rights violations, but the problem is now china has actually become economically very successful in addition to math, human rights violations. and so my question i always ask is, you know, when china had the chinaman was mr. car, when there was the great famine of china,

where 45000000 people died. and in the culture revolution, when up to 1000000 people died in the u. s. no one in the international community interfered and came to, to help the people of china. and china was a poor country. they didn't have any high technology. they didn't have any scientific innovation at the time. people were leaving china, you know, in, in the millions we have a huge chinese diaspora around the world. and no one asked why, there's so many chinese people around the world. i don't think that biden is as cynical in his approach to china. i think he really has a deep seated believe the human. why do matter that this is? and he mentioned that the press conference that this is a part of the u. s. foreign policy. so i think he does not only see it in terms of great power. do you politically competition with china, but he sees it as a competition of systems, especially chinese system has become more and more autocratic in the last few years . so it's has taking a back what development to to,

to where we've been in the past. and this is something which is not only a power play, but which is something which could be fundamental for his foreign policy. that he places an emphasis on democracy versus a talk with the and on telling, challenging china if it becomes even more autocratic. well, i would just say, i don't think that the united states necessarily is worried about china becoming number one. time is going to become number one is going to become the largest economy in the world. that's inevitable. not on a per capita basis, that may never happen. i think the issue here, i mean, you, you mentioned all of these historic wrongs that were committed against the chinese people. i think what the difference now is, is that china is threatening its neighbors. it's threatening its neighborhood. it's become a threat well beyond china's borders. and i think this is what has worried the united states. i also wouldn't mention the united states and it's human rights abuses to the degree that does exist in the same breath as china or russia. as far

as i know, the united states is not operating any concentration camps at the moment, like the one industry john. i think the u. s. tried to partner with china and there was a hope in the west that through economic development and through prosperity, china would join the family of democratic nations that there would be a hunger in the chinese society for democratic reforms. and that hasn't happened. i mean, it exists clearly in china, but it has been snuffed out. so this is why it has become this rivalry obscene systems. and this is why biden is concerned not just by this is a bipartisan issue, bite into and washing bite and making the, with the european needs to bring the europeans onside the united states has tried to do this, i think with some success by explaining to the europeans and convincing them of the danger that exist. and we saw this in this debate over 5 g network technology that

the chinese company was way, was very eager to sell in europe, and is eager to sell in europe in the united states game. and tried to convince the european allies that if they were to take on this technology, that they would be opening themselves to subterfuge, going forward by the chinese. and they've had mix success on that front. but i think at least this issue of china is taking a much more central position in the european debate than it did even a year ago. i think just to add on this, it's also difficult to advance as debate in europe because of the public mood and the public perception of china, which is only shifting very slowly. so china is still not perceived as a threat in germany and also in many of the european countries. and then we have an addition to the account making twists. obviously, the business interests with china. and this together is something which sort of politicians have to consider when they take a strong approach to china, to take that population with them and to explain to them why we have to change our

china policy. and can you imagine shooting pain going into listening mode with joe biden in the way that's been put in apparently did in the, in the last 24 hours also. well, i mean, it depends on what sort of, if that any, some, it's planned on this level. i mean that would be huge. a huge, huge occasion. i think what was good about the fight and put in some it is that they established a personal relationship which is not about trust, which is not about any will mantic friendship inclinations, but it's very much about put matic business. what can we get done together? what, where do we not, we, and it's try to advance in those areas where we can agree. when you say we were often talking about germany. and the, i mean, the case against germany in the, in this instance, is that his germany wants to sell cars to china once it's pipeline with russia, it's distracted by an an upcoming election. so there's very little commitment to

making common calls with, with joe biden, in terms of defense spending. where does that leave germany is? i wouldn't say there's very little commitment to germany has raised its defense spending not to the levels that the united states would see. but the fact is, germany is an exporting nation and always has been it is very dependent on export. it has an aging population. it can easily just say ok, we're not going to export anything more to china when you have big companies like b, w, and others that are almost completely dependent on, on china. and the united states is also economically dependent on china to increase . so i think this is why it's not useful to look at this to the frame of the cold war to say there's going to be another cold war because the simple systems are already very closely intertwined. and the west needs to find a way to deal with china without completely cutting it off because that's just, that's just not possible. china is already many times larger than the soviet union ever was in terms of the size of its economy. and it's just growing even more so

she won't, can china reasonably expect from the europeans in the, in the years to come specifically from the germans after their reelection in the near future? i think we also have to see what happens with our upcoming elections here in germany. you know, for example, with the greens upcoming and germany and china, they have to corporate. and everyone in germany knows that because climate change is also a huge problem and everyone knows that climate change cannot be address without china in the discussion. and so i think, and also germany and china has a very strong trade relations. and neither one of them benefits from, you know, any kind of political disputes. so i think both countries need to really take into account in social issues such as climate change and trade and business and all the benefits they get from each other and kind of find ways to corporate, just like kitchen and bite and did,

and to china should get involved with european discussions, you know, get involved with more talks with europe so that people can kind of, you know, focus a little bit away from this competition or whose number one super power. i mean to, you know, they shouldn't really be any super power. you know, we should all find better ways to, to improve human rights to improve trade. and china has to be part of that discussion who told me how perceptions in china are about, about issues, around sort of the liberal values and western values. what we large co western values, how those, how those perceptions are changing, given that there's so much more movement for chinese people in the global situation . ok, i think that for example, europe and the us would benefit from, from understanding chinese called to more from understanding the history more the language. i mean, the reason i think people feel so alienated now in germany is because we don't actually have much contact direct contact with china and chinese people. and so if

we did, we would have this understanding that for a lot of time, these people, especially though my mother generation, for example, china went from complete poverty to this very successful economy. and so i think people to have this tendency in china to kind of have this compromise, can maybe we don't have freedom of speech. it's an oppressive states, but we have access to technology. we can find, we have this middle class in china now. and chinese people can study abroad now and trouble before, you know, a decade ago, china was completely closed. people didn't have these privileges like the people have in europe and in the u. s. and suddenly they want to taste of this pie as well . you know, and so i think chinese people do want to go back backwards in their mindset and they are, you know, i'm not saying that happy to kind of go along with things. but you know, they, it is a fact that a lot of quality of life,

a lot of people has improved. and i think people associate this with, she didn't pain and or his social policy. he's made in china liana. yeah, i think just, and i think the problem with is that it seems that the leadership in beijing is not really interested in making human why it's part of any dialogue of any agenda. and well, there is a lot of dialogue going on with china and us will do the many. oh is which should go on this very clearly, very strong pushback from beijing on all issues with the west. and you criticize this. russia could say was i could china on and this is something which should not be acceptable to an open dialogue between partners and countries. that some areas we be forcefully tried by aging to be cut out of, of dialogue to be cut out of negotiations and sanctions against members of the european parliament who's been out against the human wide situation. and that is

something which is so concerning the dialogue with china as important as it is, has become so much more difficult in the last the is due to an increasing the autocratic development at home. and that is something which is still change the entire approach to diplomacy. china used to have this sort of quiet diplomacy and didn't want to really be noticed too much. that was sort of my, my feeling in europe in particular. and now they have these so called wolf boyer diplomats. you go out there just attacking people left and right. so i mean that has been a really fundamental change. okay, thank you very, very much indeed rollers impressions. all those use great stuff. i wish i had just a little bit more time would be talking about china, russia, the us and the morally to surrounding the diplomacy between those countries and sort of much for joining us. and if you the joint program as much as i have come by next week, i just the

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