was the great famine of china, where 45000000 people died. and in the culture revolution, when up to a 1000000 people died, you know, the u. s. no one in the international community interfered and came to, to help the people of china. and china was a poor country. they didn't have any high technology. they didn't have any scientific innovation at the time. people were leaving china, you know, in, in the millions we have a huge chinese diaspora around the world. and no one asked why. there are so many chinese people around the world. i don't think that biden is as cynical in his approach to china. i think he really has a deep seated believe that human. why do matter that this is, and he mentioned that the press conference that this is a part of u. s. foreign policy. so i think he doesn't only see it in terms of great power. do you politically competition with china, but he sees it as a competition of systems, especially since of chinese system has become more and more autocratic in the last

2 years. so it's has taken a back what development to, to, to where we've been in the past. and this is something which is not only a power play, but which is something which could be fundamental for his put foreign policy that he place is an emphasis on democracy. versus a talk with the and on telling, challenging china if it becomes even more autocratic. well, i would say, i don't think that the united states necessarily is worried about china becoming number one is going to become number one is going to become the largest economy in the world that inevitably not on a per capita basis. that may never happen. i think the issue here, i mean, you, you mentioned all of these historic wrongs that were committed against the chinese people. i think what the difference now is, is that china is threatening its neighbors. it's threatening its neighborhood. it's become a threat well beyond china's borders. and i think this is what his worried united states. i also wouldn't mention the united states and it's human rights abuses to the degree that those just in the same breath as china or russia. as far as i know,

the united states is not operating any concentration camps at the moment, like the one in john. i think the u. s. tried to partner with china and there was a hope in the west that through economic development and through prosperity, china would join the family of democratic nations that there would be a hunger in the chinese society for democratic reforms. and that hasn't happened. i mean, it exists clearly in china, but it has been snuffed out. so this is why it has become this rivalry obscene systems. and this is why biden is concerned not just by this is a bipartisan issue in bite and do and war should bite and share that with the european needs to bring the europeans onside the united states has tried to do this, i think with some success by explaining to the europeans and convincing them of the

danger that exists. and we saw this in this debate over 5 g network technology that the chinese company was way, was very eager to sell in europe and is eager to sell in europe. and the united states came and tried to convince the european allies that if they were to take on this technology, that they would be opening themselves to subterfuge, going forward by the chinese and they've had mix success on that front. but i think at least this issue of china is taking a much more central position in the european debate than it did even a year ago. i think just to add on this, it's also difficult to advances debate in europe because of the public mood and of the public perception of china, which is only shifting very slowly. so china is still not perceived as a threat in germany and also in many of the european countries. and then we have an addition vehicle not making twists, obviously the business interests of china. and this together is something which sort of politicians have to consider when they take us to approach to china,

to take that population with them and to explain to them why we have to change our china policy. can you imagine she doing pain, going into listening mode with joe biden in the way that they put in apparently did in the, in the last 24 hours or so. well, i mean, it depends on what sort of, if that any, some, it's planned on this level. i mean that would be huge. a huge, huge occasion. i think what was good about the bite and put in some it is that they established a personal relationship which is not about trust, which is not about any will mantic friendship inclinations, but it's very much about put matic business. what can we get done together? what, where do we, not, we, and it's try to advance in those areas where we can agree, when you say, where you were often talking about germany. and the, i mean, the case against germany in the, in this instances is germany wants to sell cars to china. once it's pipeline with russia, it's distracted by an an upcoming election. and there's very little commitment to

making common cause with the, with joe biden, in terms of defense spending. where does that leave? germany's, i wouldn't say there's very little commitment to germany has raised this defense spending not to the levels that the united states would see. but the fact is, germany is an exporting nation and always has been it is very dependent on export. it has an aging population, it can't easily just say ok, we're not going to export anything more to china when you have big companies like the w and others that are almost completely dependent on, on china. and the united states is also economically dependent on china to a decrease. so i think this is why it's not useful to look at this to the frame of the cold war. and to say there's going to be another cold war because the symptom systems are already very closely intertwined. and the west needs to find a way to deal with china without completely cutting it off because that's just, that's just not possible. china is already many times larger than the soviet union ever was in terms of the as if it's economy and it's just growing even more. so she

will want, can china reasonably expect from the europeans in the, in the years to come specifically from the germans after their election in the near future? i think we also have to see what happens with our upcoming elections here in germany . you know, for example, with the greens upcoming and germany and china, they have to cooperate. and everyone in germany knows that because climate change is also a huge problem and everyone knows that climate change can not be address without china in the discussion. and so i think and also germany and china has a very strong trade relations and neither one of them benefits from, you know, any kind of political disputes. so i think both countries need to really take into account, you know, social issues such as climate change and trading business and all the benefits they get from each other and kind of find ways to corporate just like to, to, and,

and bite and did. and chinese should won't get involved with european discussion, you know, get involved with more talks with europe so that people can kind of, you know, focus a little bit away from this competition or whose number one super power. i mean, the, you know, they shouldn't really be any super power. you know, we should all find better ways to improve human rights to improve trade. and china has to be part of that discussion who told me how perceptions enjoyed her about about issues, around sort of liberal values and western values. what we logical western values, how those a, how those perceptions are changing, given that there's so much more movement for chinese people in the global situation . ok, i think that for example, in europe and the us would benefit from, from understanding chinese culture more from understanding the history more the language. i mean, the reason i think people feel so alienated now in germany is because we don't actually have much contact direct contact with china and chinese people. and so if

we did, we would have this understanding that for a lot of chinese people, especially though my mother generation, for example, china went from complete to poverty, to this very successful economy. and so i think people to have this tendency in china to kind of have this compromise, can maybe we don't have freedom of speech. it's an oppressive states, but we have access to technology. we can find, we have this middle class in china now. and chinese people can study abroad now and trouble before, you know, a decade ago, china was completely closed. people didn't have these privileges like the people have in europe and in the us. and suddenly they want to pace of this pie as well, you know. and so i think chinese people don't want to go back backwards in their mindset and they are, you know, i'm not saying that happy to kind of go along with things. but you know, they,

it is a fact that a lot of quality of life, a lot of people has improved. and i think people associate this with she didn't pain and all his social policy he's made in china. yeah. no. yeah. i think just, i think the problem really is that it seems that the leadership in beijing is not really interested in making human why it's part of any dialogue of any agenda. and well, there is a lot of dialogue going on with china and you're absolutely right. there are many, oh is which should go on this very clearly, very strong pushback from bridging on all issues with the west and europe criticize this. russia could say i could china, and this is something which should not be acceptable to an open dialogue between partners and countries. that some areas we be forcefully tried by aging to be cut out of, of dialogue to be cut out of negotiations. sanctions against members of the european

parliament who pick out against a human wide situation. and that is something which is so concerning the dialogue with china as important as it is, has become so much more difficult. in the last, he is due to an increasing the autocratic development at home and that is something which is so changed their entire approach to diplomacy. china used to have this sort of quiet diplomacy and didn't want to really be noticed too much. that was sort of my, my feeling in, in europe in particular. and now they have these so called wolf boyer. diplomats, you go out there to attacking people left and right. so i mean, that has been a really fundamental change. okay. thank you very, very much indeed. for his impressions, views, great stuff. i wish i had just a little bit more time with the talking about china, russia, the us and the morally to surrounding the diplomacy between those countries. i'm sort of much for joining us if you could join the program as much as i have come by next week about just

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