the dress you're facing taking us bands is not that important. know, and the global 3000 and theories starts june 21st on d. w. joe biden has concluded his 1st trip abroad as us president in the example. see schedule a mess with friends. and he met with foes intensive talk with his russian counts about me, puerto engine either bite and cast himself as an advocate of liberal values based democracy. he also highlighted what he sees as the military and economic storage post by russia and above all china. so on to the point we asked bike and wounds russia and china, but his europe on board the

news? well, thanks very much indeed for joining us on the show where my guest here in the studio leanna fakes a russia expert from the curb foundation, who says the biden putin summit is not only about confrontation, it is also an opportunity for most ability between working to also witnesses, matthew snake, chief europe correspondent for politico his opinion. if you fail to achieve a common approach to russia and china with the u. s, the west is doomed. sound the warm welcome to to search and find brightness. i'm from t w's, asia desk, who argues that the us, china and russia have more in common with each other, and europe should not take sides. interesting, come until 3. thanks very much. thank you much too for being here. and i'm going to

begin with you. matthew, it's been a very intense week of diplomacy for joe biden in europe. we had a better place now than we were before all the talking began. i think so. i think he made clear that the united states remains very dedicated to europe and wants to keep the alliance intact and is hoping that the europeans will join him in confronting both russia and china in the years ahead. and there seems to be at least an openness to these ideas in terms of the atmosphere with russia. i think he also succeeded in calming the waters a bit. i don't think the 2 of them are not buddies. they're not going to be best buddies. they didn't look into one another's eyes and their souls. they shook hands and had a fairly cordial. but frank meeting i would say for a while, and it's not that easy. liana, you talked about it being the,

the meeting and prospect. and you said it should, it should be about cooperation, not just confrontation. now everybody is talking about us and russia entering what is called strategic stability dialogue. i gather this is very important for the inside is i think it's very important that you explained it for us because it's right at the middle of what we're doing here. what we're talking about. yeah, that's exactly why the summit was a success because the us and russia decided to focus on those areas where the most dangerous and most whisks and the area of nuclear weapons and limiting nuclear weapons. the last week the new start 20 was just prolonged last minute when biden came into office. that's on the agenda, and that is meant by strategic stability, limiting nuclear weapons addressing new threats like cyber sweats and new weapon systems that are developed right now. this is one of the most dangerous areas in the us, russia relationship for all of us. and that is why it is so important that there

was agreement, they repeated the way can go about a statement. nuclear watch should not be fought and cannot be one. that's a very important sign for both sides. it's not the most juicy, most sexy and topic, but it is an incredibly important topic for the security of basically everyone on the salt. and so just coming back to the mood, president biden is sometimes seen as a bit of a sort of a, a soft spoken diplomat, but he can, you know, he can be more confrontational. how do you see him? i see biden as a very experienced politician. he has decades of experience as politician 1st as president, then as 5, as well as in local politics. and he's very careful and calculated and cautious everything he stays largely united scripted, it's edited. and he's a huge contrast to donald trump, his predecessor. and i think that because trump alienated

a lot of the international community with his characteristics, being very outspoken, i think biden has a lot of appeal, actually as a politician in many countries outside of the us, for example, in asia. the way he kind of presents himself, you know, with a lot of east asian cultures, it's very, it has, it gives more respect. and i think people also need to pay attention to that too. and he's, he's very much made the power struggle between the us and china. his central are one of the central focuses. if his foreign policy, what do you make that? i think that bite and has been very, very clever. it was a very smart move. i think we can all agree that communicating with putin and even though you said it wasn't the most juicy, sexy kind of news. i think it is a huge move forward in progress to kind of buddy up with rush for the

1st time a long time. because we all know the elephant in the room is china biden, is mostly concerned about china than he is about rush at the moment. and russia is traditionally china's ally. and so to kind of now be more open to cooperation. you know, just to attend the summit. i think he has put the whole waging kind of at edge and everyone's nervous in china. yes. you don't look as though you, but you buy all of that, matthew? well, i think the cab to teen is actually under a lot of pressure when it comes to china. you know, it's worth remembering. the rush is a fairly small economy. it's about as big as the economy of spain. they have a lot of nuclear weapons which makes them very dangerous, but i don't think that anybody really thought that putin would want to start a nuclear war with the west or even this kind of arms race like we saw in the cold war. because that's also very expensive, although there have been some worries in the united states that the russians are

developing new hypersonic weapons that would threaten the west. be that as it may. i think the, the real issue is, is china. i think the problem that putin has though with china is that he doesn't want to be too dependent on china. so the degree that to which he can calm things with the west, probably the better also. also in his view to be a little bit pessimistic. i think we are actually, we have to admit that we are already in an am slave because both washer, in the united states, a modernizing the nuclear us and old and developing these weapon systems. which is just to say that the focus of the summit was so important because we are already at a stage in this area where everyone is endangered, if some weapon systems further developed. and that's also why fi, but was such an important element of the summit by that gave putting a list of 16 critical infrastructure areas that should not be targeted by

cyber takes. again, sounds very technical, but it's incredibly important to our daily life. i guess the problem in the reason i wouldn't sleep so soundly is that the chinese are also developing these weapons and they are not party to these arm control agreements that date back to the cold war should be bought into the in the future. okay, well let's just listen to get to get a flavor of the 2 president says as a spoken in geneva, let's listen to 1st of all, joe biden. and then we'll hear what president putin had to say. in fact, they violate these basic norms. we will respond cyber he knows this time boy number 2 i, i think that the last thing he wants now is a cold war. fill of number. yup. natural phase of letting me put in said, generally we understand what our american partners are talking about and they

understand what we mean when we refer to read lisles. he added by the 2 sides are largely avoided. touching on these devices issue, definitely leon, i was out the red lines that emerged from the talks that will much talked about advance. what will you know? can you pin them down like a short list? electron meddling huge red line for the united states. cyber attacks on critical infrastructure as i just mentioned, big redline, obviously human wides, also important topic and button brought up the the case of not all me, but that it's difficult to set what blind because how can you react to someone classes? this is sort of like, i mean, he made a very clear statement to believe that it would be very, very problematic if not all the dice and put them. but again, what is the we action that you can take to this action?

so what they focused on where we as, where they, we could make progress and the other areas would disgust. but the focus now is uncertain. we as and to see with the positive developments take place there and from then we can take it to other areas possibly. and suji. how important do you think it is that there is a growing clash between the political cultures of the western model as it were, and then the eastern model as a liberal democracy? i think that, for example, opponents of the, your central and imperialism would say that it wouldn't be so much as a clash of political systems and cultures. because china has always been, for example, communist states since 949. and i think that all 3 of these economies, both russia, the u. s. and china have huge human rights violations. and they have very different political systems. but all 3 are struggling with serving social justice back home.

and i think that, you know, the main issue is actually the competition between competing economies by 3 countries that are lead, you know, by 3 men that have, you know, frankly, a lot of hubris, arrogance, a bit of ego. if i'm, i say, and you know, they all want to be at the top of the world, you know, all 3 of them. and we are framing this as a kind of a clash of values over the world. you know, that's kind of dividing everyone between east and west, between europe and the u. s. and asia. but in fact it's, so i think people should pay a little bit more attention that what we're actually seeing is a competition between 3 very greedy countries. all 3 of them and all 3 countries have huge human rights abuses and social injustices. well, many ordinary americans might be asking themselves who the big enemy is these days president by there is no doubt that the greatest long term strategic challenge to

america is china. a group photo with friends, the u. s. will desperately need them in the future. now the nation's primary rival is china, a powerful upon the nato summit, sent out the message to the world that the ranks are tightly closed. before the summit, the pentagon had already ordered us troops to ship their focus to china. some of the measures will likely devote the higher of chinese president gigi team like the planned trade agreement with taiwan, for example. and a new multi trillion dollar infrastructure plant is meant to compete with china's belt and road initiative that is working beyond that massive investments and technology are meant to encourage greater independence from chinese high tech

product. biden also signed an executive order banning american from investing in $59.00 chinese companies. but not all of the u. s. partners agree with it's hard line approach. china is arrival and many issues. and at the same time, china is also a partner on many issues. can president biden rely on his allies in the confrontation with china, with, with just a question just a minute, but i'd like to go back to suji, and just a few days ago, there was a headline in the atlantic magazine that caught my eye. joe biden worries that china might when is he really to worry? what was, what would it mean for china to win? i think what by means and what us seeking is there, they're worried about china is global influence and chinese expansion. and they are worried about chinese companies, you know, overtaking american companies,

which have always been very successful. the u. s. has always in their view, been at the top of world leadership. and i guess they don't want to share that physician and china is now for the 1st time since she's in pain came to power. he's kind of transform china so rapidly because china used to be such a poor, impoverish country always with human rights violations, always for decades. train has always had a lot of human rights violations. but the problem is now china has actually become economically very successful. in addition to math, human rights violations. and so my question i always ask is, you know, when china had the chinaman with mr. car, when there was the great famine of china where 45000000 people died. and in the culture revolution, when up to 1000000 people died in the u. s. no one in the international community

interfered and came to, to help the people, china and china was a poor country. they didn't have any high technology. they didn't have any scientific innovation at the time. people were leaving china, you know, in, in the millions we have a huge chinese diaspora around the world. and no one asked why, there's so many chinese people around the world. i don't think that biden is as cynical in his approach to china. i think he really has a deep seated believe that human rights do matter. that this is and he mentioned that the press conference that this is a part of us foreign policy. so i think he doesn't only see it in terms of great power. do you politically competition with china, but he sees it as a competition of systems, especially chinese system has become more and more autocratic in the last few years . so it's has taken a back what development to, to, to where we've been in the past. and this is something which is not only a power play, but which is something which could be fundamental for his put foreign policy. that

he places an emphasis on democracy versus a talk with the and on challenging, challenging china if it becomes even more autocratic. cynthia, well, i would just say, i don't think that the united states necessarily is worrying about china becoming number one is going to become number one is going to become the largest economy in the world. that's inevitable. they're not on a per capita basis, that they never have. but i think the issue here, i mean, you, you mentioned all of these historic wrongs that were committed against the chinese people. i think what the difference now is, is that china is threatening its neighbors. it's threatening its neighborhood, it's become a threat well beyond china's borders. and i think this is what his worried the united states. i also wouldn't mention the united states and it's human rights abuses to the degree that those exist in the same breath as china or russia. as far as i know, the united states is not operating any concentration camps at the moment, like the one in she's young. i think the u. s. tried to partner with china and

there was a hope in the west that through economic development and through prosperity, china would join the family of democratic nations that there would be a hunger in the chinese society for democratic reforms. and that hasn't happened. i mean, it exists clearly in china, but it has been snuffed out. so this is why it has become this rivalry obscene systems. and this is why biden is concerned that not just by this is a bipartisan issue. it was due and washer biting to share that with the european needs to bring the europeans on side. the united states has tried to do this, i think with some success by explaining to the europeans and convincing them of the danger that exist. and we saw this in this debate over 5 g network technology that the chinese company was way, was very eager to sell in europe, and is eager to sell in europe in the united states game. and tried to convince the

european allies that if they were to take on this technology, that they would be opening themselves to subterfuge, going forward by the chinese. and they've had mixed success on that front. but i think at least this issue of china is taking a much more central position in the european debate than it did even a year ago. i think just to add on this, it's also difficult to advance the debate in europe because of the public mood and of the public perception of china, which is only shifting very slowly. so china is still not perceived as a threat in germany and also in many other european countries. and then we have in addition to the account making twists, obviously the business interests of china. and this together is something which sort of politicians have to consider when they take a strong approach to china, to take the population with them and to explain to them why we have to change our china policy. and can you imagine she doing pain going into listening mode with joe

biden in the way this a lot of polluting, apparently did in the, in the last 24 hours also. well, i mean, it depends on what sort of, if that any, some, it's planned on this level. i mean that would be huge. a huge, huge occasion. i think what was good about the bite and put in some it is that they established a personal relationship which is not about trust, which is not about any we're mantic friendship inclinations, but it's very much about put matic business. what can we get done together? what, where do we, not, we, and it's try to advance in those areas where we can agree, when you say, where you were often talking about germany. and the, i mean, the case against germany in the, in this instance, is that is, germany wants to sell cars to china, actually once it's pipeline with russia, it's distracted by an an upcoming election. and there's very little commitment to making common cause with, with joe biden, in terms of defense spending. where does that leave? germany's, i wouldn't say there's very little commitment they've been germany, has raised its defense spending not to the levels that the united states would see

. but the fact is, germany is an exporting nation and always has been it is very dependent on export. it has an aging population. it can easily just say ok, we're not going to export anything more to china when you have big companies like the w and others that are almost completely dependent on, on china. and the united states is also economically dependent on try to, to a degree. so i think this is why it's not useful to look at this through the frame of the cold war to say there's going to be another cold war because the symptom systems are already very closely intertwined. and the west needs to find a way to deal with china without completely cutting it off because that's just, that's just not possible. china is already many times larger than the soviet union ever was in terms of the size of its economy. and it's just growing even more so she won't come china reasonably expect from the europeans in the, in the years to come specifically from the germans after their election in the near

future. i think we also have to see what happens with our upcoming elections here in germany. you know, for example, with the greens upcoming and germany and china, they have to corporate. and everyone in germany knows that because climate change is also a huge problem and everyone knows that climate change cannot be address without china in the discussion. and so i think, and also germany and china has a very strong trade relations. and neither one of them benefits from, you know, any kind of political disputes. so i think both countries need to really take into account, you know, social issues such as climate change and trading business and all the benefits they get from each other. and kind of find ways to corporate. just like to turn and bite and did. and trying to show more get involved with european discussions, you know, get involved with more talks with europe so that people can kind of, you know,

if it was a little bit away from this competition or whose number one super power. i mean, the, you know, there shouldn't really be any super power. you know, we should all find better ways to, to improve human rights to improve trade. and china has to be part of that discussion who tell me how perceptions in china about the, about issues around sort of liberal values and western values. what we logical western values. how those a, how those perceptions are changing, given that there's so much more movement for chinese people in the global situation . ok, i think that for example, in europe and the us would benefit from, from understanding chinese culture more from understanding the history more the language. i mean, the reason i think people feel so alienated now in germany is because we don't actually have much contact direct contact with china and chinese people. and so if we did, we would have this understanding that for a lot of time, nice people, especially though my mother generation, for example,

china went from complete poverty to this very successful economy. and so i think people to have this tendency in china to kind of have this compromise, the can, maybe we don't have freedom of speech. it's an oppressive state, but we have access to technology. we can find, we have this middle class in china now. and chinese people can study abroad now and trouble before, you know, a decade ago, china was completely closed. people didn't have these privileges like the people have in europe and in the u. s. and suddenly they want a taste of this pie as well. you know, and so i think chinese people don't want to go back backwards in their mindset and they are, you know, i'm not saying that happy to kind of go along with things. but you know, they, that it is a fact that a lot of quality of life, a lot of people has improved. and i think people associate this with she didn't ping and or his social policy. she's made in china. yeah. no. yeah. i think just,

i think the problem really is that it seems that the leadership in beijing is not really interested in making human why it's part of any dialogue of any agenda. and well, there is a lot of dialogue going on with china and us will do at the many, oh is which should go on this very clearly, very strong pushback from aging on all issues with the west and europe criticized. this was could say as much i could china, and this is something which should not be acceptable to an open dialogue between partners and countries. that some areas we falsely tried by aging to be cut out of of dialogue to be cut out of negotiations and sanctions against members of the european parliament who pick out against the human wide situation. and that is something which is so concerning the dialogue with china as important as it is,

has become so much more difficult in the last 2 years due to increasing the autocratic development at home. and that is something which is to change their entire approach to diplomacy. china used to have this sort of quiet diplomacy and didn't want to really be noticed too much. that was sort of my, my feeling in, in europe in particular. and now they have these so called wolf lawyer. diplomats you go out there to attacking people left and right. so i mean, that has been a really a fundamental change. okay. thank you very, very much indeed for his impressions allows use great stuff. i wish i just a little bit more time would be talking about china, russia, the us and the morally to surrounding the diplomacy between those countries. i'm sorry much for joining us. and if you've enjoyed the program as much as i have come by next week about just the

the the news the, the ah, the news, the news, the news,

the the the, the all ah, ah survivors to monday. and maybe even figured welcome to funding or no, not from the theory. anything is in the bundle. in 15 minutes, d, w,

it's about billions. it's about power. it's about the foundation of an order. the new silk road. china wants to expand its influence with this trade network also in europe. china is promises foreigners, rich profit in europe, and there's a sharp warning you want wherever accepts money from. the new super power will become dependent on in showing those gateway starts july 1st on d, w. a deal with words where i come from. we don't run away from the confrontation. what i was 5 years old. my father took me to his friends and i was booked on the sport. i feel learn so

early dentist. you're sol as a language and a good thought. 5 is a conversation must lead your opponent. understand that thing too new of a man to get clothes otherwise. comscore it's not on like a tough interview really. when interviewing politicians on hold for a c e o is you have to wait for the right moment to get around the fence, then make your move without you have to take risks to get results. i've got elsis and i work at dw frankfurt, a hot international gateway to the best connection, south road and radio located in the heart of europe,

you are connected to the world experience and standing shopping and dining offers. enjoying our services. be our guest at frankfurt airport city managed by fretboard. oh the ah, this is the w news, and these are our top store raise. poles have closed in iran after friday's presidential elections, where voter turnout was reportedly load. iranian officials extended voting to encourage light come in to cast the ballad, but many said they didn't support anyone in the race optimized reformist or moderate candidates were bod. from running. many voters also stayed angry over the impact of international sanctions and rising unemployment.