the, you know, this channel we're not to have to talk to young people clearly have the solution. the future doesn't these 7 percent now every weekend on the w how much freedom the members of the l g. b t to community enjoy. well, in recent weeks, gay pride marches and countries around the world have underlined the solidarity in the community discrimination violence and even the death penalty was still part of the global agenda of hate. there's been angry criticism of hungary, new anti l g b t q law and the european suckers blocking of the use of the movements rainbow colors. that's a big european championship match in music. so on the point on to the points we ask

hate against l. g b t q, talk to tackle exclusion. the oh, thanks so much indeed for joining us here on the show and my guest in the studio, joe hutchinson, who is a us lawyer and journalist who believes that symbolic gestures are a good start with what really helps the queer community meaningful reforms. to go for radio, france internet is also with us. he argues that western europe is tolerant, but not quite as tolerant as it might think, found a very warm welcome to to ben 3, get the w correspondent in brussels. he says, not only hungary, many eastern european countries have problems with sexual minorities. thank you for being with me today. all 3 of you and i'd like to go 1st of all to joe and to

suggest that there is something in the air that we've reached a certain juncture. were there an awful lot of people who want to talk about gender inclusion, exclusion, all these aspects of, of life? suddenly it's the top of the agenda. why? why i think my personal belief is that there's so many other priorities that governments should be focused on. but this is a convenient little way to distract people so hungry. this is the 2nd line, i think last year they made it possible. they made it impossible for trans people to change their genders from the one they were signed at birth. this is absolutely a campaign they're following, what russia has done before them. sexual minorities are a great scape goat for a lot of social ills. and then even in, i say, germany or in the united states, we always see these kind of stoking the culture wars. you know, there's, it's always a great thing to pick groups or society against each other to distract us, frankly,

from the pressing needs of, you know, ican. i'm a crisis and climate change. what he says, pasco stoking the culture was when i think i agree, i think it's, i mean it's nothing new that folk of elements, it's very, it's a very easy politic to use or to miss used to be arise, some minorities for a news, roma people, sexual minorities, etc, may be to, to develop a debate to come to focus on the, on the topic, which maybe is not the, the number one priority in the country. but so at the same time it avoids maybe to talk about order would you may be surrounding developments in hungary, for example, that has been a very real political debate. of course. yeah. and i mean the, the politic which mr. all been has implemented in the last years now is also can also concern sexual minority and the n g g i q can minority.

but in the past we also had several ad tax legal attacks. so to say against cb writes, so it's also a new development in something which has been developed into last years. and it's also, it's also we will hear it maybe it's also interesting, interesting that european union has these time was this time much more faster to react, done in the past, in, in which what hungary did. okay, we'll, we'll go to boundary, get in, in brussels, in just a moment the tensions that it can be, no doubt about it running high between the hungarian government. so victor or the prime minister and the european union leaders over the controversial new law in hungary, widely described as an anti l g b t to law. here are some impressions of what has been going on. it was an unusual

display its validated before the international magic and hungry. many german stands wave. the rainbow flag representing their support for the l. g. b t. q. community entire stadiums were also supposed to shine colorfully infallibility at the european championship. but it was prohibited by the u. s. a backed by contrast hungry fans for almost aggressive in their support for their team, which was eliminated from the european championship. the next day at the summit in brussels, victor, or by most threatened with another expulsion. this time from the you for many have me. there's nothing for hungary in the european union, but unfortunately in the system we currently have. i can't do anything on my own about anyone. i can only course out with the support of the other members state the cause for the outrage. the hungarian parliament plans on banning materials in school meant to educate students on homosexuality. nearly all you members barring

poland is lavinia consider the law to be a clear violation of the values such as freedom from discrimination. consequently, it got a little bit lonely around victor, oregon epic e summit. and yet he still sees himself as being unjustly targeted. so i am defending the rights of the sexual guy. so the slope is not about that. it's about the right of the kids, and the parents, how homophobic is hungry, new love really been treated. how homophobic is the lower and do you feel any more comfortable that the victim oberon is now seeing himself as a champion of homosexuals? this new law is just the tip of the iceberg. in hungary, there's a tendency to discriminate more and more against gays, lesbians, transgender people. this law is show, prevent the young people get any information about the sexual minorities. it's meant to safe. the family value is, is a long process,

and mr. all the maybe he says he's not against gays and lesbians, but he sees that with this kind of policies. he caters to his audience, he's in an election campaign coming up and he sees that to society and hungry actually responds to this. he maybe has the feeling that as a society, once that, and this is a problem in hungry and in many other mostly eastern european countries, for example in poland in bulgaria and romania. so this still periods is against the energy d p, q, community. and he's using that, but he got very harsh criticism for the 1st time. the commission president said this is a disgrace and he was threatened by the dutch prime minister as you heard it. also, the luxembourg is prime minister savvy, better was himself, was very person. and said that and understood nothing about the gay invest in community,

but it didn't impress him. i guess the law is still in place and hungry and now the commission has to su, hungry in luxembourg, at the european court. so there's a long way to go. and it's all political messier and brussels. it's interesting that you mentioned something better of the prime minister of luxembourg. his comments were very, very much his own. they were very much, they were not just policy statements. they were emotions. can you tell us what he said? he was very personal, he told the 26 of the state governments in brussels about his own coming out about the fights with his mother. and she didn't understand that he's gay and stuff like that. and he said it's, it's hungry. and if all bond is pursuing these kind of policy, he personally fields and touched and threatened, and there was a very loud discussion. and only the polish and civilian prime is about on the side of hungary and all others. and said,

the battle is right of cause that you cannot do this in europe in the 21st century . did that, that has to stop. and the part should be in the other direction, not going back, rolling back the rights of gays and lesbians. the other way around. pascal, what do you make these comments from the docs? prime minister, mark root has saying that there is no place for hungary in the e u. we will see if it's only a sentence or if it, if we will have some consequences that we all know that it's almost impossible to get rid of a country and to exclude these country from the european union. it's very difficult also to agree on sanctions. again, the country, so i prefer to wait if there will be consequences, but it's sure that these values and some other ones are the ground principles of should be the wrong principles of our modern european civilization.

and it, but it's, of course it's for people like like all but auto, auto ones in poland and elsewhere. it's of course of wonderful topic too because it's linked to identity. and so you can, with such a topic, increase the fear of the map of a lot of people in the, into a pure lation of a lot of heterosexual people. especially if they are more conservative, will have the impression, their own identity will be question. we had the same debate with huge demonstration, 9 years ago in france, when the hero sexual mariage was open. it a lot of people, a lot of friends in germany, told me how is it possible in france at the beginning of the 21st century? because these people think a new law for minority, we'll take them some rights they always have,

but it's not about that. it's about getting some rights to people who didn't have them. that's a different stroke. yes, i think what we see time and time again is and i don't want to just, i know things are difficult and easier, but i don't want to look to pretend that the problem is only in eastern europe. and so when i see people like, and i know he's, he's probably well intention or we need to look at what can we change from that a societal level. because depending on where you go, it's not that we always have for i always experienced the same rights and privileges. no matter where i go, you know, living in berlin. i do not walk around the streets holding my partner's hand because i don't feel safe here to do that. you don't do that full still. absolutely not. no, i will not do that because i have to constantly be scrutinizing are we going to be personally attacked verbally? or physically that's happening and so why understand we should apply pressure and

countries like hungry. i think there are other ways to do it. i think at a super national level. so you know, the european leaders talking to themselves. i think business leaders could threaten, you know, to pull their factories out of hungry if they don't get in line with what your p values are. i think that's the proper way to do it. but not to assume that it's only a hungry work for people are under attack. will tell us, would tell us, tell us about where else you're aware of, you know, similar levels of threat around europe who anywhere else. well, so it definitely so you know, for my personal opinion, there's certain places where i feel more comfortable and for various reasons. so again, it's not, it's generally for me, not a country it's, you know, i might feel safer in an urban center than i would in the countryside somewhere because of various aspects of how i'm going to be perceived. and how hostile, potentially people are going to be to me. so i think when we're talking about the rights of sexual minorities, thank you for awesome. and you know, like racial minorities, ethnic minorities, there's a whole tapestry of, you know,

we have, you know, europe's heritage is that it's all very varied and different. but i think we're also seeing now there isn't one uniform european experience. it really depends on a day to day basis. you know, where are you in how you moving to society spent in this discussion between, between brussels and hungary. what is likely to happen next? where is that discussion likely to go by the commission of the open up an infringement procedure going hungry? this is to form a step and then take hungry to the cords. but the commission is also trying to convince hungary with a threat. and that's about money because the disbursement of funds from the next you budget is linked to a state of law mechanism. it's called and this could be used for the 1st time in this case. but this is still a way to go because every element of states have to agree and polar sylvia on the

side of hungary. so it's still complicated. but i also wanted to say that even in countries like belgium here in brussels, you are not always safe as a game. and you can of course, hold the hand of you know, if your partner in the european quarter. but if you go downtown the muslim communities, the myron communities live there, it's very advised not to do that. so they also problem in western europe. and it's a societal problems, not only politics because the rights in belgium, in the books of perfect for gays, bedroom is ranking on the 2nd place in the list that the rainbow and lobby groups do every year more to the 1st place in europe. does the 2nd and so, but there are still problems. i've got to tell me about what we know about the situation of young members of the o g, b t q, community, these days. somebody let's say in their early twenties,

looking to sort of design the, the life they have ahead of them. no, they want to have out of them. is that no easier than, than it used to be, let's say 20 years ago, or do the same kinds of problems that have always been there remain? i would say, generally speaking, the situation has improved positively. we have more legal rights, nice ations which are active. you have more places which can offer certain protection or give you advises, especially in bigger cities. but on the other hand, it depends where you live. it will be, of course, much more difficult if you leave in a little check village on a little hungry and village where you have a very conservative population. it depends also what's your background? of course, if you lease you,

if your parents came from turkey or syrian are very religious, miss lynn, it would be probably much more difficult to to have your coming out are especially to be accepted through your through your parents. and we don't want to to know, want to talk about somebody coming from dad. minority wanted to, wanted to change, to change and to become a transfer ritual woman. so that you have very, very different situations, very different constellations as we already as a, as it was already said. we leave here in burling. although they are still problems . you have a phobic attacks every week, but we, we leave here in a certain bubble. and these bubble with its limits of course, doesn't exist in a lot of places. and also for, for certain certain young people who have different different background,

different religious background or different parents. so i think it's, it's, it can still be difficult. the, the average suicide rate among teenagers is higher among l. g, b, t q. i, qx people than the average population for example. so you still have problem, you still have dramatic situations. but on the other hand, in big cities like in berlin or it's wearing paris in amsterdam, i think for these young people, for example, the necessity to, to go out in a, in queer place is to dare to go to a dance club, which is, which is definitely gayle lane, you know, whatever, that's not a necessity nowadays because you can be your says wherever you are in certain big cities in certain areas, to wait on that before we move on to a broader perspective. yes,

i think what we have to understand is the correct community is not uniform. so while it may be easier for some people, we have to recognize it's still about survival. it's so about, you know, physically where people are going to be subject to violence, no matter where they go. and i want to push back on this, you know, not just in migrant neighborhoods. you know, i'm, when i'm talking about, i don't feel comfortable going. i also meet in berlin meta so we have to understand that if you are visibly queer, if you are breaking the norms, it's just going to depend and it's going to sit throughout the day. how comfort are you going to feeling? i would agree that younger people are generally growing up with more role models with more visibility, with more awareness. so i think, you know, it's not as difficult to at least find the information once they may suspect that they are different from their peers. and i, you know, i see various groups of young people where sexuality gender is kind of more amorphous. but again, that depends on the bubble you're looking at. and if they can find the community. ok, well homosexuals in many countries around the world live in the fear of violence arrest

and even the death penalty that includes many muslim countries like chechnya, somalia, iran and saudi arabia before we talk about that shocking fact, let's have a look at some of the examples ronnie, con, run academic 1st and dropped the for transgender people. she also teaches them how to, so that they can sell close to pay for their gender affirmation, treat. and along the way with the other set of fun down, and families do not accept transgender people through the motor home, so they tend to wrongdoing, dancing, and begging, doing other evil things. i was one of them. i do mississippi khan hope. tonight, transgender people, by using islam and pakistan alone, there are an estimated 300000 transgender people. and for these students, the majority is not only a stepping stone for greater acceptance within society. it also served as

a space haven for them. because in many muslim countries, like here in senegal, there is still tremendous prejudice against the l. g. b t. community as this demonstration against equal rights for homosexual, clearly indicates on the other hand, during the last presidential election and 2019 mile and near about tour, a member of the l g b t, right, organizations, shami even ran for the countries highest office is there light at the end of the rainbow worldwide, calls are often made to our governments and to brussels, to do something about the situation about the climate of hatred that i alluded to earlier. bands, what could, what can brussels do? but of course, they are official policies in place to promote european values, which is non discrimination, of sexual minorities and even europe. this is difficult, as you heard,

and to transport this into the wider it's even more difficult because the influenced the you has on, for example, saudi arabia, african countries to change these laws of this. so tight behaviors of course limited. and if you have countries like hungary in your midst that are not obeying to this, this values, it's even more difficult to, to have your stand in the world. so it's, well, it's a long way to go. so i'm just trying to make this a little bit together. i'd like to come back to budapest, hungary, where there's, there's a big debate about the clash of cultures in hungarian society in eastern european society, liberal societies against a liberal societies who would want to live in a liberal society. we'll see understanding from brussels of that can under well, if you look hungry on poland for example, the parties that promoting this liberal democracy are still with elections. so you

have to see that it seems that a majority of people still is supporting this. and we now see it, especially in hungry discussion in it because of the upcoming elections that this might change because all opposition parties are now putting together a list to beat the fetus party of mr album. but it's still a struggle and it's in the structures of the societies in eastern europe that they are not as far advanced when it comes to, to civil rights and gay rights and has been rights. this is meant to that can change, but it will take time. what do you say by that passcode that we have we have to for, for a period of time, except that there is prejudice that there is hatred. yeah, unfortunately, yes, and i think what, what we have to what we can see in these examples in hungary right now in

poland where conservative people proclaim the so called l g b t free zones. the situation in romania is also very problematic. it shows that there is not a logical, positive development in the, in the history with always, every year are with always new and more rise for l g b, t, people. you can also have a road back. i mean, the situation seems the end of the community is them was never perfect in hungary and poland and he's in these or a countries, but in poland for example, you have, you still have, but you had prod, mattress, etc. and there were some, some positive developments. and now we have these rollback, we also have it in a certain form. so in france, for example, where you, you see that on values, we have a society which is more conservative than it was, i think,

some years ago. so yeah, that's why it's important to yeah, not to stop the struggle and to fight every day for us, for our neighbors. and also outside from you until you come, you come from the country that gave us, you know, women's with the women's rights movement in large measure in the sixty's black rights. and gay rights is how great is your fear that instead of progress being made, we now may be face a backlash, at least in some respects. well, i think it's very important for us, as i said, that there's always going to be pushback. it's never so there's the mistaken belief that we're always going to have progress. that's an ending and nothing and holds back. it's a push pull. be because as people get more uncomfortable, there's going to be reactionary pushback. and so we, as a society are evolving and that evolves, you know, being, recognizing that it's going to go in this direction, going to the doctor actually,

you know, united states just survive for years of donald trump. and so we can really see how even in as stable democracy as we like to call the united states, we're also encountering these issues with liberalism and authoritarianism. but something i think i just want to point out is, you know, as, as valiant as it is to want to influence other countries. we should also focus on what can year p and countries that are have a problem with or, and what can they do in their own homes? okay, i hit music. now we don't have time. we, we have been talking about how best to tackle exclusion. i really would like to have that in a nutshell, spend how to tackle exclusion. what do we do to try out in the future? good will say that is good advice coming from brussels. we've been talking about the l g, b t q, community and how to tackle exclusion. thanks very much for joining us. see you next time around. just the

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