with all our ways with we can make a difference by choosing smartness solutions over st said in our way, the global ideas, mental series in the little 3000 on d, w. and how much freedom to members of the l g. b t q. community enjoy. well, in recent weeks, gay pride marches and countries around the world have underlined the solidarity in the community discrimination violence and even the death penalty are still part of the global agenda of hate has been angry criticism of hungary, new anti l g b t q law and the european suckers blocking of the use of the movements rainbow colors. that's a big european championship match in music. so on the point on to the points we ask

hate against l g b t q talk to tackle exclusion? the news? oh, thanks very much indeed. for joining us here on the show and my guest in the studio are joe hutchinson, who is a us lawyer and journalist who believes that symbolic gestures are a good start for what really helps the queer community meaningful reforms. go to go for radio, france internet is also with us. he argues that western europe is tolerant, but not quite as tolerant as it might think. a very warm welcome to suburban 3, got the w correspondent in brussels. he says, not only hungary, many eastern european countries have problems with sexual minorities. thank you for being with me today. all 3 of you and i'd like to go 1st of all to joe and

suggest that there is something in the air that we've reached a certain juncture. were there an awful lot of people who want to talk about gender inclusion, exclusion, all these aspects of, of life? suddenly it's the top of the agenda. why? why i think my personal belief is that there's so many other priorities that governments should be focused on. but this is a convenient little way to distract people so hungry. this is the 2nd line, i think last year they made it possible. they made it impossible for trans people to change their genders from the one they were signed at birth. this is absolutely a campaign they're following, what russia has done before them. sexual minorities are a great scape goat for a lot of social ills. and then even in, i say, germany or in the united states, we always see these kind of stoking the culture wars. you know, there's, it's always a great thing to pit groups of society against each other to distract us, frankly,

from the pressing needs of, you know, he can, i'm a crisis in climate change. what he says goes stoking the culture was when i think i agree, i think it's, i mean it's nothing new that folk of elements, it's very, it's a very easy politic to use or to misuse, to be arise, some minorities for a new roman people, sexual minorities, etc, may be to, to develop a debate to come to focus on the, on the topic, which maybe is not the, the number one priority in the country. but so at the same time, it avoids maybe to talk about orders. maybe maybe some surrounding developments in hungary, for example, that has been a very real political debate. of course. yeah. and i mean the, the politic which mr. albany has implemented in the last years now is also also concern sexual minority and the l g b, t. i q can minority,

but in the past we also had several attacks legal attacks. so to say, against cbo writes, so it's also a new development in something which has been dev locked in the last years. and it's also, it's also we will hear it. maybe it's also interesting, interesting. european union has these time, was this time much more faster to react, done in the past, in, in which what hungary did. okay, well we'll go so boundary get in, in brussels in just a moment just the tensions that it can be, no doubt about it. running high between the hungarian government of victor or the prime minister and the european union leaders over the controversial new law in hungary. widely described as an anti l g b t q law. here are some impressions of what has been going on. it was an unusual

display of fellow dirty before the international magic and hungry. many driven fans waved the rainbow flag representing their support for the l. g. b t q community entire stadiums were also supposed to shine colorfully infallibility at the european championship. but it was prohibited by the u. e. s. a fat. by contrast, hungary fans for almost aggressive and their support for their team, which was eliminated from the european championship. the next day at the summit in brussels, victor, or by most threatened with another expulsion. this time from the you for many have me. there's nothing for hungary in the european union, but unfortunately in the system we currently have. i can't do anything on my own about. i can only force them out with the support of the other members. stay on the cars for the outrage. the hungarian parliament plans on banning material in school meant to educate students on homosexuality. nearly all you members barring poland

and levine, you consider the law to be a clear violation of the values such as freedom from discrimination. consequently, it got a little bit lonely around victor, oregon at the you summit. and yet he still sees himself as being unjustly targeted . so i am defending the rights of the sexual guy. so the slope is not about that. about the rights of the kids and the parents. how homophobic is hungry, new love really? federico, how homophobic is the lower and do you feel more comfortable that the victor oberon is now seeing himself as a champion of homosexuals? for this new law is just the tip of the iceberg. in hungary, there's a tendency to discriminate more and more against gays, lesbians turns into people this law is, shall prevent the young people get any information about the sexual minorities. it's meant to save the family values. this is a long process,

and mr. maybe he says he's not against gays, industrials, but he sees that with this kind of policies. he caters to his audience. he's in an election campaign coming up and he sees that to society. and hungry actually responds to this, he maybe has the feeling that as a society once that, and this is a problem in hungry and in many other mostly eastern european countries, for example, in poland in bulgaria and romania. so this still periods is against the energy d, d q community and he's using that. but he got very harsh criticism for the 1st time the commission president said this is a disgrace and he was threatened by the dutch prime minister as you heard. and also the luxembourg, a prime minister savvy, better was himself, was very person and said that and understood nothing about the gay invest in community. but it didn't impress him. i guess the law is still in place and hungary

and now the commission has to su, hungry in luxembourg at the european court. so this is a long way to go. and it's all that political messier and brussels it's, it's interesting that you mentioned there. so if you have battles, the, the prime minister of luxembourg, his comments were very, very much he's own, they were very much, they were not just policy statements. they were emotions. can you tell us what he said? he was very personal. he told the 26 of the state governments in brussels about his own coming out about is the fights with his mother. and she didn't understand that he's gay and stuff like that. and he said it's, it's hungry. and if all bond is pursuing this kind of policy, he personally fields and touched and threatened and there was a very loud discussion and only the polish and as levine in prime is about on the side of hungary and all of us and said,

that is right of cause that you cannot do this in europe, in the 21st century, did that, that has to stop and the part should be in the other direction, not going back, rolling back the rights of gays and lesbians. the other way around. pascal, what do you make these comments from the docs? prime minister mark router saying that there is no place for hungary in the e u. we will see if it's only a sentence or if it, if we will have some consequences that we all know that it's almost impossible to get rid of a country and to exclude these country from the european union. it's very difficult also to agree on sanctions. again, country, so i prefer to wait if there will be consequences, but it's sure that these values and some other ones are the ground principles of should be the wrong principles of our modern european civilization.

and it, but it's, of course it's for people like like all but auto, auto ones in poland and elsewhere. it's of course, wonderful topic too because it's linked to identity. and so you can, with such a topic, increase the fear of the med, of a lot of people in the interpellation of a lot of heterosexual people, especially if they are more conservative, will have the impression, their own identity will be question. we had the same debate with huge demonstration, 9 years ago in france, when the hero sexual mariage was open. it a lot of people, a lot of friends in germany, told me how is it possible in france at the beginning of the 21st century? because these people think a new low for minority, we'll take them some rights they always have,

but it's not about that. it's about getting some right to people who didn't have them. that's a different yes, i think what we see time and time again is and i don't want to just, i know things are difficult and easier, but i don't want to look to pretend as if the problem is only in eastern europe. and so when i see people like my quota and i know he's, he's probably well intention, but we need to look at what can we change from that a societal level. because depending on where you go, it's not that we always have for i always experienced the same rights and privileges of the matter where i go, you know, living in berlin. i do not walk around the streets holding my partner's hand because i don't feel safe here. to do that, you don't do that full still. absolutely not. no, i will not do that because i have to constantly be scrutinizing are we going to be personally attacked verbally or physically that's happening? and so why understand, we should apply pressure and countries like hungry?

i think there are other ways to do it. i think at a super national level. so you know, the european leaders talking to themselves. i think business leaders could threatened you know, to pull their factories out of hungry if they don't get in line with what your p values are. i think that's the proper way to do it, but not to assume that it's only a hungry work for people are under attack. will tell us, would tell us, tell us about where else you're aware of, you know, similar levels of threat around europe who anywhere else. well, so it definitely so you know, speaking for my personal opinion, there's certain places where i feel more comfortable and for various reasons. so again, it's not, it's generally for me, not a country, it's, you know, i might feel safer in an urban center than i would in the countryside somewhere because of various aspects of how i'm going to be perceived. and how hostile, potentially people are going to be to me. so i think when we're talking about the rights of sexual minorities, thank you for awesome. and so, you know, like racial minorities, ethnic minorities, there's a whole tapestry of, you know,

we have, you know, europe's heritage is that it's all very varied and different. but i think we're also seeing now there isn't one i'm uniform european experience. it really depends on a day to day basis. you know, where are you and how you moving through society spent in this discussion between, between brussels and hungary. oh, what is likely to happen next? where is that discussion likely to go by the commission? the open up an infringement procedure going hungry. this is to form a step and then take hungry to the cords. but the commission, i was trying to convince hungary with a threat, and that's about money because the disbursement of funds from the next you budget is linked to a state of law mechanism. it's called and this could be used for the 1st time in this case. but this is still a way to go because every element of states to agree and poland and so on the

side of hungary. so it's still complicated. but i also wanted to say that even in countries like doesn't here in brussels, you are not always as safe as a game. and you can of course, hold the hand of you know, if your partner in the european quarter. but if you go downtown, the muslim communities, the myron committees live there, it's very advised not to do that. so they also problem in western europe. and it's a societal problems, not only politics because the rights in belgium, in the books of perfect for gays, bedroom is ranking on the 2nd place in the list that the rainbow and lobby groups do every year. malta is the 1st place in europe and best the 2nd. and so, but there's still problems that's got to tell me about what, what we know about the situation of young members of the l g, b t q, community, these days. somebody like say in their early twenties looking to sort of design the,

the life they have ahead of them. all they want to have out of them. is that now easier than, than it used to be, let's say 20 years ago? or did the same kinds of problems that have always been there remain. i would say, generally speaking, the situation has improved positively. we have more legal rights, more organizations which are active. you have more places which can offer certain protection. or give you advice, especially in bigger cities. but on the other hand, it depends where you live. it will be of course, much more difficult if you leave in a little check village on a little hungary and village, where you have a very conservative population. it depends also, what's your background? of course, if you lease you,

if your parents came from turkey or syrian are very religious, miss lynn, it would be probably much more difficult to, to have your coming out or especially to be accepted through your through your parents. and we don't want to to know, want to talk about somebody coming from that minority. wanted to wanted to change to chant and to become a drunk and retrans woman. so that you have very, very different situations, very different constellations as we already as a, as it was already said. we leave here in burling. although they are still problems . you have a phobia attacks every week, but we, we leave here in a certain bubble. and these bubble with its limits of course, doesn't exist in a lot of places and also for, for certain certain young people who have different different backgrounds,

different religious background or different parents. so i think it's, it's, it can still be difficult. the, the average suicide rate among teenagers is higher among as g. b t q, i, qx people than the average population for example. so you see have problem used to have dramatic situations. but on the other hand, in big cities like in berlin or it's where in paris in amsterdam, i think for these young people, for example, the necessity to, to go out in a, in queer place is to dare to go to a dance club, which is which is definitely gail, lead, you know, whatever, that's not a necessity nowadays because you can be says wherever you are in search and big cities in certain areas to wait on that before we move on to the broader

perspective. yes, i think what we have to understand is the cur, community is not uniform. so while it may be easier for some people, we have to recognize it's still about survival. it's so about, you know, physically where people are going to be subject to violence, no matter where they go. and i want to push back on this, you know, not just in migrant neighborhoods. you know, i'm, when i'm talking about, i don't feel comfortable going. i also me in berlin meta so we have to understand that if you are visibly queer, if you are breaking the norms, it's just going to depend and it's going to shift throughout the day. how comfort are you going to feeling? i would agree that younger people are generally growing up with more role models with more visibility, with more awareness. so i think, you know, it's not as difficult to at least find the information once they may suspect that they are different from their peers. and i, you know, i see various groups of young people where sexuality gender is kind of more amorphous. but again, that depends on the bubble you're looking at. and if they can find the community. ok, well how many functions in many countries around the world live in the fear of violence

arrest and even the death penalty that includes many muslim countries like chechnya, somalia, iran and saudi arabia. before we talk about that shocking front, let's have a look at some of the examples. ronnie, con, run pakistan 1st, mcgraw, the for transgender people. she also teaches them how to so that they can sell clothes, the pay for their gender affirmation treatment along the way. the other, most families do not accept transgender people through them, out of their homes. they tend to wrongdoings be stopped dancing and begging, doing evil things. i was one of them. i con hope to unite transgender people by using islam and pakistan alone. there are enough committed 300000 transgender people. and for these students, the majority is not only a stepping stone for greater acceptance within society. it also serves as

a safe haven for them. because in many muslim countries, like here in synagogue, there is still tremendous prejudice against the l. g. b t. community as this demonstration against equal rights for homosexual, clearly indicates on the other hand, during the last angel election and 2019 mile near about tour, a member of the l. g. b, t rights organization, sham even ran for the country's highest office. is there light at the end of the rainbow? worldwide? calls are often made to our governments and to brussels, to do something about the situation about the climate of hatred that i alluded to earlier. bands. what could, what can brussels do? but of course, they are official policies in place to promote european values, which is non discrimination, of sexual minorities and even the europe. this is difficult, as we heard,

and to transport this into the wide over. it's even more difficult because the influence you has on, for example, saudi arabia, african countries to change these laws of this. so tied to the behaviors of course limited. and if you have countries like hungary in your midst that are not obeying to this, this values, it's even more difficult to, to have your stand in the world. so it's, it's a long way to go still. and just trying to match this a little bit together, i'd like to come back to budapest, hungary, where there's that there's a big debate about the clash of cultures in hungarian society in eastern european society, liberal societies against a liberal societies who would want to live in a liberal society you will see on the sunday from brussels of that conundrum. well, if you look hungry on poland, for example, the parties that promoting this liberal democracy are still with elections. so you

have to see that it seems that a majority of people still is supporting this. and we now see if, especially in hungry discussion in it because of the upcoming elections. that this might change because all opposition parties are now putting together a list to beat the fetus party of mr album. but it's still a struggle and it's in the structure of the societies in eastern europe, that they are not as far advanced when it comes to, to civil rights and gay rights. and there's been rights. this is the matter of the truth. it can change, but it will take time. what do you say by that passcode that we have we have to for, for, for a period of time, except that there is prejudice that there is hatred? yeah, unfortunately, yes, and i think what, what we have to what we can see in these examples in hungary right now in

poland where conservative people proclaim the so called l g b t free zones. the situation in romania is also very problematic. it shows that there is not a logical, positive development in the, in the history with always, every year or with always new and more rise for l g b, t, people. you can also have a road back. i mean the situation since the end of the community was never perfect in hungary and poland and he's in these or a countries, but in poland for example, you have, you still have but you had prod, monitors, etc. and there were some, some positive developments. and now we have these rollback, we also have a new surgeon for. so in france, for example, where you, you see that on values, we have a society which is more conservative than it was, i think,

some years ago. so yeah, that's why it's important to yeah, not to stop the struggle and to fight every day for us, for our neighbors. and also outside from you until you come, you come from the country that gave us, you know, women's with the view in women's rights movement in large measure in the sixty's black rights. and gay rights is how great is your fear that instead of progress being made, we now may be face a backlash, at least in some respects. well, i think it's very important for us, as i said, that there's always going to be pushback. it's never so there's this mistaken belief that we're always going to have progress. that's an ending and nothing. and it was back. it's a push pull. be because as people get more uncomfortable, there's going to be reactionary pushback. and so we, as a society are evolving and that evolves, you know, being, recognizing that it's going to go in this direction, going to the doctor actually,

you know, united states just survived for years of donald trump. and so we can really see how even in as stable of democracy as we like to call it the united states. we're also encountering these issues with liberalism and authoritarianism. but something i think i just want to point out is, you know, as, as valiant as it is to want to influence other countries. we should also focus on what can year p and countries that are have a problem with on what can they do in their own homes. okay, i hear music now. we don't have time. we, we have been talking about how best to tackle exclusion. i really would like to have that in a nutshell, then how to tackle exclusion. what do we do to try out a future good will say that is good advice coming from brussels. we've been talking about the l g, b t q, community and how to tackle exclusion. thanks so much for joining us. see you next going round just the

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