go to school the we ask why? because education makes the world more just the make up your own w made for mines. the russia continues. why elation of international law and human rights when they couldn't really be much worse their behavior could it? there are steps always can be ways. why was the you so it will prepare. one of the most complicated issues for european foreign policy. is there any point in pushing ahead with enlargement plan? the perspective to get membership is also very important. when it comes to foreign policy, it's getting harder to work out what the use stands for. too many disagreements

among members, too many grand intentions and find words to little to show for them. my guess this week is or must pipe nice, gera, the european parliament, foreign affairs committee, and he joins me from stuff book. can he play my, such a powerful block of nations? seems to punch so far below its weight on the world stage. the news for master pied. welcome to conflict zone. hello. let's start if we may, with russia, which presents a number of key foreign policy challenges to the e. u. since the seizure of crimea, the e. u has imposed a huge variety of sanctions on moscow. can you think of any way in which those sanctions have to any degree change moscow's behavior?

well, if you look at the history of sanctions globally, then it's of course, always an issue. how much and how fast sanctions will have its influence. and what concerns russia then? yes, so we have seen that so far that has been no immediate direct influence because russia continues while ation of international law and human rights be in the ukraine, be in russia, in some other 3rd places. but there is also always question what these are, what should be an alternative if one country is systematically and harshly violates international law and human rights. so that they yeah, me that the impact. yeah. so for the time being the sanctions have been useless. and my question is really, what's the point of continuing to take measures that have no effect? is it to make people in the you feel better about it?

well, part of politics always is also that the public opinion should approve the steps. but there is also an issue that if you, these days just stop sanctions without anything really has been changed in russian behavior, then it's also they show for us credibility. so the politically, it's also impossible just skip sanctions. so without anything really has happened. yeah, so not only did you not change rushes behavior, you haven't managed really to mitigate the effects of it either. have you, for example, there was talk of reaching out to supporting civil society in russia. that avenue has also been closed off by the russians since they've come down on a lot of civil society. so that's not working either. is it? well, here i can't disagree. i think that the russian cb societies as part of it. these, unfortunately, abroad has got a lot of political morals,

but also financial support from european countries plus also dairy station. when we speak about sanctions, we don't know what caught and would be a russian behavior without the direction of a west of the europe of the united states. because unfortunately, always it don't so well can be worse. so that the, in this regard, i also don't see real alternative to the european invest in action and behavior, russian, violation of human rights and rule of law. well, it couldn't really be much worse. their behavior could is, i mean, they've invaded a sovereign state. they kill that political opponents on european territory. they hack into your election systems. what could actually be worse than signaling if such a thing is possible that the sanctions don't matter a job to them. they're going ahead with the disruptive behavior. well, i will not elaborate here,

and i guess that you understand very well that well, there are steps which always can be worse because i remember before 2014 they were also majority, i guess western politician who said that it will never happen, that the threshold will affect its neighbors? well, it happened 2014. so the to say today that it cannot be worse. well, unfortunately it can. you've been extremely critical of the use foreign policy chief years that barajo called his visit to moscow in february, a colossal failure of the commission by contrast, expressed full support for it. who are we supposed to believe? was it a success or failure? well this concrete visit was failure because the timing was very, very bad and it was already foreseen that nothing good can not come out from this visit. so that in distance i clearly understand they support that phone. so during difficult times, the dialogue and conversation is important,

but it's always that timing matters. the timing for this particular visit, especially to moscow was, was very bad. and also the place for meetings was it was not the best one. i guess that the if you spot or you restart the contacts and dialogue, then your 1st, your chose more neutral places for this kind of, of visits and also, well, you should choose appropriate timing can disregard. and of course, the messages their messages should be much, much clearer and stronger in this regard. and of course, based on the common approach from 2070 you'll member say, well, mr. morale said he went to challenge russia's behavior with regard to human rights to see if they would engage on the issue. he came back saying they wouldn't. what more could he have done? he tried, he tried, he failed. it wasn't worth trying. well,

i don't think that he had to go with with any expense. once again, i think that the timing for this particular visit was very bad. so that i guess that different timing maybe also some different the message is good and should be well fed. the role and keep maybe some better outcome, although yeah, we all know that the rush at the moment has no interest at all to improve the relations with weston democracy. so that then disregard the bills. i should understand that for real developments they should be on. so some change of thinking in, in russia and it is not happening at this very moment and it says, no change in thinking. and as you say, there isn't. so, so what you left with, there's one kid on the block who wants to play nice and that's you and the other one doesn't. you're left looking pretty weak by contrast and, you know, i,

i don't think so. i also don't think the thrush is the only player in the world. i think that that the stage you have to clearly strengthen her relations with the united states. also with the united kingdom, with other democratic countries. and we want to get that. i mean, the western democracies have to keep much more adequate balance point globally when the one site at the moment are western democracies and on the other site, b, g o, the retarder. and that seems like china, russia, and some others. so the biggest at this stage, you also have to concentrate much more on strengthening real functioning relationship with, with us and other democracies. well perhaps if you concentrate more on the strengthening relationships within the block itself. because the biggest drawback for the you is your chronic disunity, isn't it you written about this yourself?

this dream of a common foreign policy is rapidly drawing to an end. isn't it time to admit that certain steps which i would like to see 1st the different foreign policy? oh my see foreign trait development corporation also defense policy. they should work much, much together. and secondly, i think that that we also don't have to need any more consensus in each and every foreign policy decision, for example, issues related to human rights and sanctions based on human rights. i don't think that we need here consensus so that this is also tie him to increase the efficiency of european for him police. yes, but i mean, we've had a prime example of this unity just recently when france and germany proposed restarting summits with moscow, which had been suspended since 2014. and that led to howls of protest among other member states because no one else had been consulted. so not only do you have

consultation if you have this unity issues, which are ensuring that the e u, the largest trading block in the well punches consistently below its weight on the international stage, doesn't it? well that's why i say that we also have to, well, little bit change the mechanism of decision making it and also for insecurity police issues. but what concerns french and german proposal stand where, like, i think that every and each country can make proposals. but yeah, then they are a pm council, we're on 27 president easter place where then they decide what this right to do and, and what's not that this very moment so that actually i don't blame german and french governments for making this proposal because what we also have seen during this last years, when all the meetings between e oh and, and russia have been suspended. we have seen that some member states have had and still having bilateral meetings and then they don't represent eels common positions

. so that in this regard to avoid the situation, i guess that don't so certain contacts and then also meetings between you and russia anyway are necessary. but here again, the timing is important. that agenda is important, and of course, also clear political well bases and political commitment from all member states and doing something that makes a difference. which we haven't seen so far doing something that actually changes russia's behavior. well, i guess this is anyway, very difficult. the difficult se target because if there is no political willingness in russia to change the rectitude which we spend, which we, well, the human values, rule of law and so on. then anyway from abroad. it is also very difficult to influence. and we also should realize that well,

be called to retire in the regimes like russia and china making more and more cooperation because, well, the same issues of human rights and international law. they don't bother them. so that the hero. so we should not be, in the sense, been a even play only ourselves, but here also there. well, the real political will or absence of this will also matters. while, i mean you read yourself, that's the strength of the you comes from unity. that this unity was on show during the recent fighting in the middle east, between the palestinians and israel. when you failed even to issue unanimous statement on the conflict because it was blocked by hungry, not even a. you can't even unify over a statement, never mind doing anything that makes a difference to the situation on the ground. that's pretty shameful, isn't it? that's why i say that i guess we have to shift from a consensus from every and d g. sure to some majority voting to increase the level of the efficiency of the us

foreign policy. and well, we also should realize that the value is not a single country. it is $27.00 countries. and we all can imagine that it is not the easiest duty or, or aim to get always the same language from 27 sensitive issues like middle east. yeah, mis. mister pied, you have plenty of people sitting around talking about policy. the conflict in the middle east isn't new. surely somebody should have been prepared to force the particular kinds of actions when the next bout of fighting broke out, but they didn't do that. my question is, why was the e u so ill prepared to do something in this instance in the middle east as it has been on previous instances, you don't seem to learn from any lessons well already. i guess the unfortunate fact that the conflict in middle east is not new already shows that it is very

complex and complicated issue. and i would say that the actually the see one of the most complicated issues for european foreign policy, but also for foreign policy. many other countries in the world, and you can imagine that if there are 27 and you have split the opinions not only between the governments, but don't st site the member states, then it is very difficult really to reach consensus so that all the complexity and all the sensitivity is what concerns middle east conflict? well, yes, all reflected on saying in your foreign policy making so that i admit this is one of the most difficult issues. and actually, i also don't foresee that the foreseeable future there will be overwhelming and large consensus about these issues. but enough for people in the you like you and senior officials to just say, oh, it's a difficult issue and ring your hands and wait for the next disaster to strike in

which you won't be able to play any kind of role. you'll just be left by the side of the road, watching the form a jordanian foreign minister. my one washer says that you become passive, accepting a status quo that it doesn't even want. that's true, isn't it? you don't want the current situation, but you haven't got any ideas for fixing it. well, i guess that in some issues, so globally, also in immediate neighbourhood of europe, your foreign policy has been quite successful when we speak, for example, ups about supporting democratic movement. speed ga, be ukraine beat some other countries where also if you look at the changes in the invest in bowl consent and so on and so on. and then yes, you also kind of course find examples where it's really difficult to make a difference. and even to reach consensus in d, u the same middle east issue. so it is as long as you is not one country,

but the combination of 27 at the state. sure. well, it also remain like this, that not in all foreign policy issues you easily can reach very brilliant consensus or, or you can push forward the very brilliant ideas where there you like the position of the member states. this is really strong. so that if you look at the middle east, then yes it last, it already dictates and dick gates, but it's not only the europe and union also, no other country came out with the solution which, which really can be helpful. so that, that's why disease really sensitive and complex and problematic issue. you talk about progress in the west mulkins with, with all the disruptions spreading inside the you. is there any point in pushing ahead with enlargement plan there? don't you have enough problems without importing feuds and organized crime and the

drug and people trafficking and smuggling from the west. balkans. they don't seem to be making a lot of progress in cracking down on organized crime that do they for all of the progress that you talk about. well, i think i think the patients in distances need it, because if we compare where we are the majority, for example, of eastern european countries in early 900 ninety's and where there are these days was not a show of one or 2. yes it was, they show a couple of the case and in the sense in the future, i also see the same kind of development with the remaining western balkan countries which are not in the that the perspective to get membership is also very important to really implement all these changes so that when we speak about serbia or bus now has to be in our or any other country after 20 or 30 years, then we really will see that your,

your prospective membership prospective has really made difference. well, i mean, you talk about that you take take bulgarian romania for instance. they had to be put on the special monitoring for more than 10 years because of problems with the rule of law issues, problems with massive corruption which persist to this day. that hasn't been any picnic for the rest of europe having bulgarian romania and the amount of crime that it generates and the amount of corruption that both countries generate on your doorstep. that hasn't been a great gift, hasn't again, i think that that without this european union perspective and without european union member membership, i think also there are risks for the rest of europe have been much, much larger. and where you mentioned romania pull, gary, i, which are one of the freshest the member states. well, but with all mother stay, look at my own country. estonia. if i look back 30 or 25 years,

and if i think about the stone it today, i still think that it has been a great achievement of europe that well, they took estonia and, and we managed to showing. and if you look at all the changes, but of course it takes time because all what happened with these particular countries in eastern europe, they didn't happen within a couple of years. they happened within half a century, 50 years of hope to say wrong history. and now to imagine that they were to think can be fixed within a couple of years. well, it's illusion, but it will happen, but it will take time mister pied. how worried are you about the news this week? the parties of the far right have formed an alliance against brussel, saying they'll fight for what they call national sovereignty and tried to prevent a european state visa, 16 parties from 15 countries in the european union, in a direct challenge to the rows that they signed up to when they exceeded to the

european union, that's hardly progress. is it? while i'm not worried, because we have seen this kind of slogans under 10 so, so during previous years, no, there's no jobs election senior more than slogans. i mean, they managed to bring you to south to a standstill inside. marian no, i disagree so far its own this logan, since we have seen the slogan sunset during previous years, because you, if you look at these concrete political parties, then they are very different. some part, these are very progression, some are very much against russia, some parties once to a very strong involvement of the state in economy or some other part this they don't want. so that in subs from substance actually they are very, very different. and it also has been the reason why so far they didn't manage to unite the forces. so that's one of the things. one of the things that does unite

them is the issue of migrants, which has been particularly devices for the you. and i think that's actually majority of citizens in europe. they are very worried about the migration issues starting from this that why people don't have to leave data data homeland in the sunsets. it's very human and in lots of cases human tragedy. so that i guess the majority of people in europe in distance don't want to see that people will have to leave their homes and then start the life of g. i'm not only about total, say, mr. bob. so most is disappointing aspect which human rights groups are underlined last month is how the e u has failed to safeguard people. again, serious human rights violations at its external borders. the spotlight has fallen on the border agency front, tx, which is accused by human rights watch of failing repeatedly to take action of allegations of human rights violations. that's a serious issue, isn't it?

it's exposed deep pulled lines in the values that mental countries were supposed to sign up to have not been a major disappointment for you. why the, for me, the big disappointment actually is that we still have the situation that there are lots of people who have to leave that homes and they have chosen the way to, to be in refugee. so that once again, i think that europe, but also other strong countries in the world, they have to do everything that people simply don't have to leave their homes. but before really there are, if which east and of course you have to handle this, you have to handle the people who have the right for protection. they should get it . and people who don't have this right, they well should be returned. yes. more so way or it's the way they are being treated at the european union's borders by the board agency from tech. this is what

has attracted a lot of attention from the human rights and a lot of human rights groups and a lot of criticism as well that from tx, the border agency is accused of failing repeatedly to take action over allegations of human rights violations. why is that, and why is it allowed? well, of course all this kind of why elation so for, for existing laws and rules, they should not happen. so that in distance, i also hope that the be front back sort of be any other organization has to have it's lessons learned so that this kind of thing should not happen again. but we also should understand that well, for many people, for many organizations, including contexts last years, they have been very fast and rapid development. there have been lots of changes in their organization and lots of changes in situation just to concrete. that doesn't justify ministry. absolutely not, absolutely not, absolutely not, but,

but i think that our perspective also should be to the future, so that all this mistreatment sent violations, they should be investigated so that they will not happen again because yeah, i agree that all this kind of stuff there people have been treated badly or, or against the law. well, they should never happen again. is it any wonder then the, with these things happening that so many in europe feel that the european project is in serious trouble? last month there was new polling and researched by the european council on foreign relations, which showed that majorities in france, germany, italy, spain and austria, now judged the e u to be broken in france, the figure was just over 60 percent onto worried by these high levels of dissatisfaction with the functioning of the you well, i haven't seen these figures my last figures we're bit more optimistic, but anyway,

of course, this is everybody's so work to explain why still it is important that europe on countries ought to get there and make operation. because what is and i'll turn up if every and each, while european country will be on its own. in today's world, nobody really can balance be china, be try show also either big players. so that if you look from economic point to fuel, if he wants to look from security point of fuel, personal freedoms point a fuel than i did. and i personally didn't discover any real turn or if the present situation. but of course it needs explanation. it needs also work with public opinion or must pied spin good to have you on comes exam. thank you very much indeed. thank you. the

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