to the field, the magic discovers the world around you subscribed to w documentary on you to me . russia continues. why elation of international law and human rights when it couldn't really be much worse their behavior couldn't. there are steps always can be worse. why was the e u so ill prepared to see one of the most the complicated issues for european foreign policy? is there any point in pushing ahead with enlargement plan, the perspectives to get membership is also very important. when it comes to foreign

policy, it's getting harder to work out what the use stands for. too many disagreements among members, too many grand intentions and find words to little to show for them. my guess this week is or must pipe nice, jared, the european economist foreign affairs committee and he joins me from stress book. can he explain why such a powerful block of nations seems to punch so far below its weight? on the world stage? the use for math pipe. welcome to complex own hello. let's start if we may, with russia, which presents a number of key foreign policy challenges to the e. u. since the seizure of crimea, the e. u has imposed a huge variety of sanctions on moscow. can you think of any way in which those

sanctions have to any degree changed moscow's behavior? well, if you look at the history of sanctions globally, then it's of course, always an issue. how much and how fast sanctions will have its influence. and what concerns russia then? yes, so we have seen that so far that has been no immediate direct influence because russia continues while ation of international law and human rights be in the ukraine, be in russia, in some other 3rd places. but there is also always question what these are, what should be an alternative if one country is systematically and harshly violates international law and human rights. so that they yeah, me that the impact. yeah. so for the time being the sanctions have been useless. and my question is really, what's the point of continuing to take measures that have no effect?

is it to make people in the you feel better about it? well, part of politics always is also that the public opinion should approve the steps. but there is also an issue that if you these days just stop sanctions without anything really has been changed in russian behavior, then it's also they show for your credibility. so the politically, it's also impossible, just skip sanctions without anything really has happened. yeah, so not only did you not change rushes behavior, you haven't managed really to mitigate the effects of it either. have you, for example, there was talk of reaching out to supporting civil society in russia. that avenue has also been closed off by the russian since they've come down on a lot of civil society. so that's not working either. is it well, here i can't disagree. i think that the russian civil society, part of it these,

unfortunately abroad, has got a lot of political moral, but also financial support from european countries lost. also there is they show when we speak about sanctions, we don't know what could and would be a russian behavior without the direction of a western europe of the united states. because unfortunately, all of a sit down so well can be worse. so that the, in this regard, i also don't see real alternative to the european invest in action and behavior, russian, violation of human rights and role of law. well, it couldn't really be much worse. their behavior could is, i mean, they've invaded a sovereign state. they kill their political opponents on european territory. they hack into your election systems. what could actually be worse, but they're signaling if such a thing is possible that the sanctions don't matter a job to them. they're going ahead with their disruptive behavior.

well, i will not elaborate here, and i guess that you understand very well that well, there are steps which always can be worse because i remember before 2014 they were also majority, i guess western politician who said that it will never happen that the russia will affect its neighbors? well, it happened 2014. so that to say today that it cannot be worse. well, unfortunately it can. you've been extremely critical of the use foreign policy chief years that barajo called his visit to moscow in february, a colossal failure of the commission by contrast, express full support for it. who are we supposed to believe? was it a success or failure? well this concrete visit was failure because the timing was very, very bad and it was already foreseen that nothing good can not come out from this

visit. so that in distance i clearly understand they support that. also during difficult times, the dialogue and conversation is important. but it's always that timing matters and the timing for this particular visit, especially to moscow was, was very bad. and also the place for meetings was that was not the best one. i guess that the if you spot or you restart the contacts and dialogue, then your 1st your chose more. no trouble places for this kind of visits. and also, well, you should choose appropriate timing in this regard. and of course, the messages their messages should be much clearer and stronger in disregard. and of course, based on the common approach from 2070, you'll member say, well, mister brown said he went to challenge russians behavior with regard to human rights to see if they would engage on the issue. he came back saying they wouldn't

. what more could he have done? he tried, he tried, he failed. it wasn't worth trying. well, i don't think that he had to go with with any expense. once again, i think that the timing for this particular visit was very bad. so that i guess that different timing, maybe also some different the message is good and should be well fed the role and keep maybe some better outcome although yeah, we all know that the rush at the moment has no interest at all to improve the relations with weston democracy, so that then disregard the bills. i should understand that for real developments they should be on. so some change of thinking in, in russia and it is not happening at this very moment and it says, no change in thinking. and as you say, there isn't so, so what are you left with?

there's one kid on the block who wants to play nice and that's you and the other one doesn't your left looking pretty weak by contrast and, you know, i, i don't think so. i also don't think that she's the only player in the world. i think that that the stage you have to clearly strengthen relations with united states, also with the united kingdom, with other democratic countries. and we want to get that. i mean, the western democracies have to keep much more adequate balance point globally, where on the one site at the moment, the western democracies and the on the other site be going to retire. and that seems like china, russia, and some others. so that i guess that at this stage you also have to concentrate much more on strengthening real functioning relationship with us and other democracies. well, perhaps if you concentrate more on the strengthening relationships within the block

itself. because the biggest drawback for the you is your chronic disunity, isn't it you written about this yourself? this dream of a common foreign policy is rapidly drawing to an end. isn't it time to admit that certain steps which i would like to see 1st the different foreign policy? oh, my see foreign trade development corporation also defense policy. they should work much, much together. and secondly, i think that, that we also don't have to need anymore consensus in each and every foreign policy decision, for example, issues related to human rights and sanctions based on human rights. i don't think that we need here consensus so that this is also tie him to increase the efficiency of european for him police. yes, but i mean, we've had a prime example of this unity just recently when france and germany proposed restarting summits with moscow, which had been suspended since 2014. and that led to howls of protest among other

member states because no one else had been consulted. so not only do you have consultation if you have this unity issues, which are ensuring that the e u, the largest trading block in the well punches consistently below its weight on the international stage, doesn't it? well, that's why i say that we also have to little bit change the mechanism of decision making and also for insecurity police issues about what concerns french and german proposal stand. where like, i think that every and each country can make proposals, but yeah, then they are a p m counsel. we're on 27, president east a place where then they decide what the right to do and what's not that this very moment so that actually i don't blame german and french governments for making this proposal. because what we also have seen during this last years, when all the meetings between e o and,

and russia have been suspended. and we have seen that some jo member states have had and still having bilateral meetings. and then they don't represent eels common positions. so that in this regard to avoid the situation, i guess that don't so certain contacts and then also meetings between you and russia anyway are necessary. but here again, the timing is important that gender is important. and of course, also clear political well bases and political commitment from one member states and doing something that makes a difference, which we haven't seen so far doing something that actually changes russia's behavior. well, i guess this is anyway, very difficult, the difficult se target because if there is no political willingness in russia to change their attitude, we said we spend when we well, the human values,

rule of law and so on. then anyway from abroad. it is also very difficult to influence, and we also should realize that will be called the car in the regimes like russia and china making more and more cooperation because the same issues of human rights and international law. they don't bother them so that the hero. so we should not, in the sense, been a even play only ourselves, but here also there. well, the real political will or absence of this will also matters. while, i mean you read yourself, that's the strength of the you comes from unity. that this unity was on show during the recent fighting in the middle east between the palestinians and israel. when the you failed even to issue unanimous statement on the conflict because it was blocked by hungry, not even a. you can't even unify over a statement, never mind doing anything that makes a difference to the situation on the ground. that's pretty shameful, isn't it? that's why i say that, but i guess we have to shift from

a consensus from every and each issue to some majority voting to increase the level of efficiency of the us foreign policy. well, we also should realize that the e o is not a single country, it is $27.00 countries, and we all can imagine that it is not the easiest duty or aim to get always the same language from 27 sensitive issues like middle east. yeah, mis, mister pied, you have plenty of people sitting around talking about policy. the conflict in the middle east isn't new. surely somebody should have been prepared to force the particular kinds of actions when the next bout of fighting broke out, but they didn't do that. my question is, why was the e u so ill prepared to do something in this instance in the middle east as it has been on previous instances, you don't seem to learn from any lessons well already. i guess the unfortunate

fact that that conflict in middle east is not new already shows that it is very complex and complicated issue. and i would say that the actually the see one of the most complicated issues for european foreign policy, but also for foreign policy. many other countries in the world, and you can imagine that if there are 27 and you have split in opinions, not only between the governments but the same site, the member states, then it is very difficult really to reach consensus so that those that complexity and and all the sensitivity is what concerns middle east conflict? well, yes, all reflected also in your foreign policy making. so that i admit, this is one of the most difficult issues. and actually, i also don't foresee that the foreseeable future that will be overwhelming and large consensus about these issues. but is it enough for people in the you like you

and senior officials to just say, oh, it's a difficult issue and ring your hands and wait for the next disaster to strike in which you wouldn't be able to play any kind of role. you're just be left by the side of the road, watching the former jordanian from minister my one washer says that you've become passive, accepting a status quo that it doesn't even want. that's true, isn't it? you don't want the current situation because you haven't got any ideas fixing it. well i guess that in some issues, so globally, also in immediate neighborhood of europe use, foreign policy has been quite successful when we speak, for example, ups about supporting democrat, the movement speed ga, be ukraine beat, some other countries where i say if you look at the changes in the, in western ball consent and so on and so on. and then yes,

you also can of course find examples where it's really difficult to make a difference. and even to reach consensus in d, u, the same middle east issue. so it is as long as you is not one country, but the combination of 27 at the state. sure. well, it also remained like this that not in all foreign policy issues you easily can reach very brilliant consensus or, or you can push forward the very brilliant ideas where they're united position of each member states. this is really strong so that they feel look at the middle east then. yes, it last, it already dictates. and dick gates, but it's not only do your opinion and then also, no other country came out with the solution which really can be helpful. so that, that's why disease really sensitive and complex and problematic issue. you talk about progress in the west mulkins with, with all the disruptions spreading inside the you. is there any point in pushing

ahead with enlargement plans there? don't you have enough problems without importing feuds, and organized crime and drug and people trafficking and smuggling from the west. mulkins. they don't seem to be making a lot of progress in cracking down on organized crime that do they for all of the progress that you talk about. well, i think i think the patients in distances need it, because if we compare where we are the majority, for example, of eastern european countries in early 900 ninety's and where there are these days was not a show of one or 2 years. it was, they show a couple of decades and in the sense in the future, i also see the same kinds of development with the remaining western balkan countries which are not in the yet that the perspective to get membership is also very important to really implement all these changes so that when we speak about sarah, be our bus now has to be in our or any other country after 20 or 30 years,

then we really will see that the u. e. o. prospective membership perspective has really made difference. well, i mean, you talk about that you take take bulgarian romania for instance. they had to be put on the special monitoring for more than 10 years because of problems with the rule of law issues, problems with massive corruption which persists to this day. that hasn't been any picnic for the rest of europe having bulgarian romania and the amount of crime that it generates and the amount of corruption that both countries generate on your doorstep. that hasn't been a great gift, hasn't again, i think that that without this european union perspective and without european union member membership, i think also there risks for the rest of europe have been much, much larger. and where you mentioned romania pool area, which are one of the pressure steel member states. well,

but we don't model still look at my own country estonia. if i look back 30 or 25 years, and if i think about the stone it today, i still think that it has been was a great, but she meant the europe that they took estonia and, and we managed to showing and. and if you look at all the changes, but of course it takes time because all what happened with this particular countries in eastern europe, they didn't happen within a couple of years. they happened within half a century. 50 years of how to say wrong history. now to imagine that they were to think can be fixed within a couple of years. well, it's illusion, but it will happen, but it will take time. mr. pied. how worried are you about the news this week? the parties of the far right have formed an alliance against brussel, saying they'll fight for what they call national sovereignty and tried to prevent a european state. these 16 poppies from 15 countries in the european union, in

a direct challenge to the rows that they signed up to when they exceeded to the european union. that's hardly progress, is it? while i'm not worried, because we have seen this kind of slogan, send attempt. so, so during previous years, there is no election senior than slogans. i mean, they managed to bring you to itself to a standstill in certain areas don't. but no, i disagree so far its own the slogan sense. we have seen the slogan, sunset during previous years, because you, if you look at these concrete political parties, then they are very different. some parties are very pro russian, some are very much against russia. some part these wants to very strong involvement of the state in economy. it's some other part this they don't want. so that in subs from substance actually they are very, very different. and it also has been the reason why so far they didn't manage to

unite their forces. so that one of the things, one of the things that does unite them is the issue of migrants which has been particularly divisive for the you. and i think that actually majority of citizens in europe, they are very worried about migration issues starting from dish that white people all have to leave their homeland in the sunsets. it's very human and in lots of cases, human friendship. so that, i guess, but the majority of people in europe in distance don't want to see that people will have to leave their homes and start the life of g. i'm not only about to say yes, miss denied. perhaps the most disappointing aspect which human rights groups are underlined last month is how the e u has failed to safeguard people against serious human rights violations at its external borders. the spotlight has fallen on the border agency front, tx which is accused by human rights watch and failing repeatedly to take action of

allegations of human rights violations. that's a serious issue, isn't it? it's exposed deep. 4 lines in the values that are meant to countries was supposed to sign up to have been a major disappointment for you. why the, for me, the big disappointment actually is that we still have the situation that there are lots of people who have to leave their homes and they have chosen the way to, to be in refugee. so that once again, i think that europe, but also other strong countries in the world, they have to do everything that people simply don't have to leave their homes. but before really there are if which east and of course you have to well handle this. you have to handle the people who have well the right for protection. they should get it. and people who don't have this, right, they well should be returned. yes. or some way,

or it's the way they are being treated at the european union's borders by the board agency, front tech. this is what has attracted a lot of attention from the human rights and a lot of human rights groups on a lot of criticism as well. that from tx, the border agency is accused of failing repeatedly to take action over allegations of human rights violations. why is that, and why is it allowed? well, of course all this kind of why elation so for existing laws and rules, they should not happen. so that in distance, i also hope that the beach front thinks are beat any other organization has to have its lessons learned so that this kind of thing should not happen again. but we also should understand that well, for many people, for many organizations, including chronics, last years, they have been very fast and rapid development. there have been lots of changes in

their organisation and lots of changes in situation. i'm not going to concrete. that doesn't justify ministry. absolutely not. and absolutely not. absolutely not, but, but i think that our perspective also should be to the future, so that all this mistreatment sent violations, they should be investigated so that they will not happen again because yeah, i agree that all this kind of stuff where people have been treated badly or, or against the law? well, they should never happen again. is it any wonder then the, when these things happening, but so many in europe feel that the european project is in serious trouble. last month there was new polling and research by the p and council on foreign relations, which showed that majorities in france, germany, italy, spain and austria, now judged the e u to be broken in france. the figure was just over 60 percent. aren't you worried by these high levels of dissatisfaction with the functioning of the you?

well, i haven't seen these figures. my last figures we're bit more optimistic. but anyway, of course, this is every day. so work to explain why still it is important that europe on countries ought to get there and make operation because what these and i'll turn up if every and each, while european country will be on its own. in today's world, nobody really can balance be china, russia, also other big players. so that if you look from economic point to fuel field, so look from security point of fuel, personal freedoms, point a fuel than i didn't, i personally didn't discover anything turned out if the present situation. but of course it needs explanation. it needs also work with public opinion or must pied spin good to have you on comes examine. thank you very much indeed. thank you. the

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