the game set tokyo with 20 or 2021. thrown off course during the qualifying ground or not for sports hero. i'm fired up and ready to count down during lockdown. lock you go to tokyo. starts july 19th on d. w. well, not make his warnings are becoming increasingly drastic. what we used to call extreme events are suddenly the norm and furnace in western canada with temperatures never before registered were shocked and horrified. but we always had things managed to turn away. devastating storm damage in europe to end, more denial. so on to the point we ask climate catastrophe. will we ever change? you always use the use?

yes, thank you very much for joining us on the show with us in the studio is pater author and journalist with a humbug based weekly d site. she's convinced that we will change our ways and life will be best. also with this is claudia camphor, from the german institute for economic research. she argues that climate protection means freedom across the generations of fossil free life is not about going without . it's about living a full life and a warm welcome to, to angelica, i'm a christian who is with the cato institute, also headquartered here in berlin, and actually say use for the global. so it's all about reconciling di compensation with just this and poverty alleviation. thank you. very much for all, for all 3 of you for being here today. i'd like to take the 1st question to claudia . it's got to do with the united nations, which is calling the climate change,

the defining crisis of our time. indeed un secretary general antonio. good cherish, says climate change called the climate emergency is a race we are currently losing. however, he insists it is a race we can when you share, he's up to. yeah, i share his optimism because we are now at a tipping point. also in the discussions we are at a tipping point related also to social participation on the topic we. we have fridays for future movement all over the globe. we have the rulings, for example, in germany from the general court, but also in other countries. so we see we see step by step much faster action than before and we have lost a lot of time would make war discussions last 15 years. but now we have reached a tipping point where we can change, but we have to act. now we cannot postpone it to the future. fascinating. and so as

great stuff to begin to show with fair amount of information optimistic information to pay through. you wrote a book about how you and your family of 4 tried to adopt a carbon neutral lifestyle. how did it go? what did you learn? so we didn't succeed. next year, failed miserably. we tried the thing, if you try, you fail. you try again. we didn't say on all counts. what we did with was actually happened out of frustration. we were frustrated with the politicians that didn't really act on the facts that we all saw. climate change is effect. we feel it now in canada, if it in germany was all over the world. so we tried to find out what we personally can do. and we went through a whole year and checked every account of our personal lives. so clothing traveling, the food, we eat, the way we'll live. and we lowered our c o 2 emissions from around 11 tons to 7, which is not the really good because we need to go down to,

to couple of things that you can change because you live in a society, you can rebuild your house from scratch. but we were in good way you, you said just statements and stuff to show you. we will live a better life and that, you know, the optimism that you see were sharing and maybe you share it to is fascinating to me. where does that optimism come from? because i experience that personally my life is better now that was before, for example, we had a car, we don't have car now. we live in a city. so it's actually easier than when you live on somewhere in a remote area. but it took me about 2 or 3 months to automatically go from when, when i go to work, to use the bike and the car, i need a certain time to, to, to, to, to, to really get used to the different way of life. and now i don't need to go to a spot to do any longer because i'd like to work and i back backwards. so i have the sport every day in my life, which makes my life better school. wonderful. angelie. i know it's a big chance to try and get me a summer if you can,

of how this whole climate debate is impacting india. i think it's pretty relevant in india as it is anywhere else in the world. and i think it's pretty, it's a very, very strong conversation that takes place. and i think it's also reflected in the, the sort of a pledge that india made in the past 2015 agreement. and it was, it was achievable and it can go bit further. but the thing is, what goes back and what maybe restricts the extent to which and get able to sort of commit or be able to make the extra effort is other priorities that sort of india is right now leading to achieve with a growing population with economic growth, not good at that speak. it's got a lot of space where it's going to confuse more, it's going to admit mall. and the ideal sort of a sweet spot would be able to achieve that incremental growth of incremental consumption. but not the additional emission number that we the images we tend to see from india, fog smoke,

intel in pretty extreme stuff. you don't come from delhi, do i do? i wasn't born there, but i spent the majority of my dad's life and danny and i went for a couple of years. you know, it's as bad as the things it the whether the ad is foggy. the ad is it is hazy, it's not clear. it's been does the news does not sort of give a false impression of how pathetic the situation is and, and that has to be there for this. not that people aren't doing anything, the government is not up to it. that are targets that are objectives that are laid down that schemes, but it takes a little more than, you know, i think it's a play. it's the demand type play as well as a splice i played. and i think that moving forward. i mean, we're not in a comfortable situation anymore. it's sort of getting to the red line where, you know, we need to really act and we need to really put, put oil here then. and i think sort of, we're still finding the sweet spot available to levy, a cost on the exclusion that's been done, but at the same time not put consumers in a position where they can live

a happy life. so i think it's a great example daily. i remember that one of the german chances a long time ago made a campaign where he's actually said the guy by the rule will be, should be blue again. and it's an area which was afraid to throw lies, were lot of coma, coal mining and coca cola plants there. and he actually made the plight we, i want the people to to have good air quality. so switching from cold to renewables is a good way to increase the to, to, to, to lead, to believe that people are better lives. i mean, i agree with you. yeah, i completely agree with you. but i mean, in terms of this agreement, because that's the 3 of you and i some of our, of us what states and they're going to say they've all got the same mindset here. alter the me to probably. yeah. and that mindset is that climate change is a very real challenge. there are other people that are around the world and there are plenty of them. i think it's all made up, or it's all harmless. claudia,

what do you say to people live up to the denies? yes. kept it well. it's not the science. what those people refer to because the scientific facts are clear and since that decades a clear that the human and deuce climate change is ongoing. and we already see that by now with the extreme events, for example, in canada, i was in russia was phoning for as in finland right now. and the climate ologist tell us that's, that's what we will face in the future. much more than that. we are seeing right now, so they are scientific findings. and the skeptics are also driven by p. r. campaign waste also from the fossil fuel lobby to fix that is showing that they have fueling, these p r campaigns in denying and merchants of balance. so to, to see doubt is their business model and we have to look to the facts. i'm a scientist, we are a scientist. so the scientific facts,

obviously i would you even without believing in climate change, look at delhi to breathe. good aaron delhi, even without the leaving and the sack of climate change, you want better physical to look the other way. but i think, i mean, of course, i mean it's definitely not easy to be going to walk everyday, given the attitude surrounded with. and i think the situation sort of, you could find examples of london in single where they've had congestion pricing in beijing. and i mean the solution there are solutions existing across the board where cities have faced, maybe not the extent to which jelly is facing. but sort of been that and you know, have, have efforts and policy measures that have been put in place. and i think it's a bit of both. you have someone who is say that it's on the government, the other one says do make the effort and make sure the, the, the right policy is importantly as we can be changing our lifestyle to the routines and bad weather. the other side, if you know there is a little bit of responsibility and it falls on can do,

must make the right choice. that is the deli, metro cycling is particularly not an option. give it, it's not lean driving. you don't have bike lanes, but it's not something you can you can think of that are from the metro station to the office. if you have bikes being provided, you have to make sure you have multiple boards of transport apart from private transport. but i think, i mean, there are, there are many other systemic changes that needs to come up before we. so we would be a part of the blame on just the government or just the consumer combine all of this . i mean, you can combine also with climate policy. climate policy creates freedom for many countries for the future generations. climate policy also creates the welfare of all the people and increase as well as well and climate change. it's not, it's not the subject of believe it's really a scientific fact. and as a side this, i always have to say that there's not believing into something. it's not a religion, it's facts, it's science and that's where we are all clear on climate policy help a lot. now let's look now at one example of how it interconnected our environments,

how be time. so now a lives have become and that example is domestic build up of plastics in the world's oceans and rivers. a vacuum cleaner is not enough to combat plastic waste on south africa beaches. millions of tons of plastic particles are now deposited on beaches all over the world. the rivers are in fact the arteries of these countries that transport the ways from the cities. they also apply to the nile in egypt. cheer volunteers are also trying to stem the tide of plastic. the fishermen are directly affected because then i see a lot of plot by that in the plastic bottles and also can all of the trashes ruining my net. and at the same time, it's killing the piles of garbage or accelerating species, extinction and climate change. some material takes several 100 years to decompose

and will probably never break down completely. meanwhile, awareness is growing about the threat. this poses to humanity. recycling plants do exist, but they can only recycle a fraction of the ways to produced. this is exacerbated by a throwaway society that have become accustomed to having its need met everywhere at any time. inconvenient packaging should be learned to live without plastic. question patron, i'd like to just put it a different way. i mean we through for huge quantities of stuff, especially plastics into our oceans and rivers. what does that tell us about mankind? human kind. it tells us that we have a problem as much larger than climate change. it is a part of the problem. is this the way we deal with the world? we think the world is just something we can consume, and we don't have to get back. we don't have to preserve and we can have ever more . and i think this is a misconception. to certain extent, we have to kind of step back and think what we really need for, for,

for 18 months. now my newspapers, i've been reading to, there's going to be a big rethink, a big reset because of the pandemic and has changed the way we think. and the way we see the world, especially the klein, you have things going to happen. yeah, i think that are tendencies and showing that a lot of people think over whether this strategy of just always more and more and more, and also harming the climate, harming the environment is not a great strategy and we should move away. and now we are learning with video conferences, we are learning more cycling, but always, i mean it's not only a matter of lifestyle, it's also a matter of transformation which brings a lot of challenges. but brings also a lot of chances to do all of us. but also to the industrial, to the system itself and a lot of new jobs and sisters that were capitalism versus climate. yeah. so it's not versus it's, it's both together. so in the original form, the economy can do

a lot and then really classical as social, socio economic and ecological make, make it together in a certain way, social ecological economics and say, say that way is an issue which we can do. but we have to prize in the environmental damage as we have to price and also the climate damages. and we have to transform and that brings a lot of challenges, but also shoot economic chances. just let me, let me for the folks who slogan out here, green revolution, the growth well, i mean best they both are good, right, seminole, you right now given the good us to be but speaking globally, i think that the road to something that needs needs of wider audience needs a wider discussion, needs a wider platform and right now if it hasn't happened yet, no, definitely not. it hasn't happened yet. and i think we're still sort of mulling over it. that is a huge class of scientists,

a political science does that have consider going forward with it in terms of research, but the real implementation of it. i don't see the politics, benito speaking it up to the extent that it needs to. but if you look at the go, the south where, you know, we've not to trees right now, still upwards did not be to be not due to the position in terms of standard of living in terms of well being in terms of growth. where we can look at it in growth, but you still have tried giving a carbon neutral talk. it's but 20502060. despite the fact that it was only less than 2 decades ago that you know, we had a chance at, at reaching the growth. but i mean having said that, i'd also, i also think claudia said it's not capitalism or climate, and i think it's sort of, you know, working hand in hand because to be able to address the climate issues, we need money and be have the fossil fuel industries which has the money so we cannot be working towards solutions by putting them down and, you know, be like, we need the, we need the oil under the ground beneath the gun. yes, we need, but we can isolate them in a fight, and i think it has to be sort of

a play together and how to best find a solution to be able to see harness if it's, if it's renewable energy, if it's alternate or to the pricing if it's carbon pricing, we need the other players on board as well. so we're hearing things. the dirty things need to decrease. the good things need to grow and that's, that's the mental issue here. i completely agree. what is capitalism could kick in and a good way? it's financial markets. now more, more leading the change because you don't want to have standard assets. you don't want to put you into a coal mine these days because you don't know whether in 20 years it will be able to, to, to, to be run. but we're going to bad the cost to send it to the government right now in the developing nations, have the, the, the, the willingness and the financial stuff to be able to bad, the cost of standard assets. and they have other development and national priorities come into play. so i think that the fact that there's still a lot of pages, a lot of dogs that are given by the needed to go out is, is enough to say there is an intention, but the has to be a tech transfer. they have to be a financial support coming, coming at the same time to be able to make those policies reality well in the

battle to keep a global warming below 2 degrees. we've touched on this already. we must slash global emissions of carbon dioxide by about 45 percent before 2030, quite soon valley. so with the aim of reaching 0. net emissions by 2050. the big question is, how 10 years ago, shortly after the reactor accident in fukushima, japan, the german government decided to take all german nuclear power plants off the grid and switch primarily to renewable energy sources. the german nuclear power will be down in 2022. but the dismantling process is a difficult one. the fuel rods need to be called for years to come, and some radioactive substances will have to be stored safely for thousands of years. at this point in time, there are only interim storage facilities. other countries are pushing for a revival of a controversial technology. after numerous accidents and old american nuclear power plants, the bite and administration plans to build smaller modern plants, france,

russia, and china, in particular, also wants to use nuclear power to satisfy part of their enormous energy needs. the advantage, unlike combustible substances, like coal, natural gas or oil, nuclear power plants are largely feel to neutral, and therefore more climate friendly, at least from this particular point of view. do we need nuclear power to stop global warming? angela? sorry for there, but i think if the closes low called an option, extra renewables in terms of providing access to everyone. and yes, there are a lot of reservations that is acosta associated with it. that it's high risk. but i think that there is a very less understanding of the deck, no economic effects over or over the public perceptions or the lobby perceptions of the potential that renewable can actually have a larger share as a low carbon system. re, i disagree strongly disagree because the potentials of renewable energy are really

large, especially also for india. and we know solar energy has large potential wind energy, biomass as well. we don't need nuclear nuclear. i said this too risky. extremely costly. one generation you, this is nuclear power parties, health and generations have to take care of the weights and that's not what we should put to the future generation. where should we be looking for the right mix for the right for the new technologies where 100 percent renewable energy world and several studies are showing this already. that's also in the u. s. a. europe can do it. i know the r p r campaigns in favor of the small, medium reactors which is coming from a start up who wants to create these reactors? it's a power point technology knowing, since the fifty's is not working, it's not economically, it's creating more risk. and also the military issues here and point, but the, the answer is renewable energy is yansa and the potential is always neglected and

ignore it is simply by the so p r campaign and india has so large potential. so i would say nucleus just a quick enough to build all these power plants you need time and we need to fight climate change. yes, yes. so you can put a saw everywhere in the remote areas in africa, so that can be the solution. wouldn't energy the way the technology is quite easy for you can put them wherever, wherever we need them. and with the, with, with nuclear it's, it's the other way around. if it's not quick, it's expensive and you know, country has get managed to deal with the, with the, with the leftovers. just one question. i mean, would we need the perspective of the younger generation and i and i, and i was thinking about, i read about your son who complained you he got annoyed with you because he said that you've, you come from a generation that has trouble the world. and enjoy doing so, and you, we now have completely different expectations about what i presume. this is

generation. i think that this is where the question of, of justice kicks and it kicks in the generations and gives, in between the not and the global south. and there is a huge issue that we have associate, it's not the south that has to go forward. it's the nurse. and it's only ration the m generation because we need to do to let something over when we, when they need to have the possibility to inherit something from this word. and i think it's absolutely right. optimistic here for the guardian newspaper. only recently had a big headline sort of, we had 6 decades of these war makes, but we have, we have who hated to have felt the issue. now we feel it, we feel it in germany. we feed it and canada. we feel that everyone and i would say mankind able to, to, to quickly when, when the problem is that one strong argument, what i just said also in the beginning we had a tipping point because of the civil society. and here's the difference. also in the picture, what we see right now, the civil society has changed,

and this is what we see in the rulings of the federal courts also in germany and the netherlands and the u. s. everywhere the civil society can and is pushing for change peoples because we all fear that there is the last future and we should change right now and i think that is a tipping point. now, i agree that i mean that is the, the gens agent, x and y. that is, that is sort of questioning why is that we have to push back our ones and desires to travel to, to consume a little more. but i think that at the same time, there is a lot of awareness in the generation on what, what we're going to be heading towards. and is this the light that we want for ourselves in the next 4050 years? i think a lot of information and understanding has sort of trickle down to schools into syllabus, into putting into the the, the matter that there's the need at school. so there is going to be a bit of pushback because you're essentially limiting the battery of how much can you really want and go out. but i think the generation is a lot more aware before they take that choice. is it a good options?

you have a lot of the younger generation or maybe the, the twenties and thirties, we who have accepted to make the change in terms of the transport that they use in terms of the diet they have in terms of how much that they can do. and what kind of housing, where are they going to live? how much to the travel in the year? and i mean, a lot of it has to, to might be to so 5 been european experience to me. and in india there isn't enough to sort of complain because it's not like it's, it's beyond control that you know, every month someone's outside. so it's, i wouldn't see that there is so much of a pushback from the generation. i think there's a lot of acceptance. it's going to take a change that is a bit of sort of a sort of an annoyance that, you know, we've come so far, yes, 60 years. nothing's happened. but i'll be waiting for it to reach in a situation to act. but something is going to happen in this country in the next couple of months where we have to general election a very, a watershed election. i would suggest that the end of september, half a minute from each of you. what advice would you give to the incoming german

government, on the climate issue? to go forwards quickly because there's lots of market for the german industry if we now switch into into green economy. if we are able to provide green products and debate, we need to, we really need an honest debate about the chances, but also about the transformation. not only determined goals, that's good, but all confirm. but we need measures to go there and to there's some kind of dishonesty in the whole debate they can do better on the carbon pricing issue. i mean yes, it's still an unmet return. so me what exactly you mean? i don't know what go for it. and when you said they can do better, i mean, i think the reader for unit that's being set right now is not the limit to which we actually need to be able to reach me after 1030 or to be able to meet the, to the remark but 2015, but that i mid century elevators, at the very find very polemics just saying whether the line prizes increasing by

whatever 5 st also. and the debate is over. so the price is really good measure. but in reality, the politicians cannot make it really happen. and that's the main problem was that we need is a whole mix of matter that absolutely agree. but the moment what's important thing is that they start to put into place measures. and it's not just about perez and atlanta goes any longer. it's not time to think that the engineer is absolutely right and we have the things we have the measure, the technology, we can go forward and shoot shot. so we really need to talk about the chance as we have the opportunities galore. we have learned we've been talking about the climate catastrophe, how to avoid all the catastrophe that has already arrived. and a good mood were hopeful for the future. and we'd like to join us again to

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