ah, we're all the kids to go beyond the obvious where as we take on the world, i do all this. yes, we're all about the stories that matter to you. whatever it takes to find policeman follow me. you know, we are here is actually on fire made for mines. ah, this week on conflict zone, at least 27 my guns perish in the english channel. will this now force europe to commit to safer migration policy? i hope it is a catalyst that finally give a hofstadter in brussels member of the european parliament and the former prime

minister of belgium. if e u member countries can't agree on a life and death issue like this, what's the point of the you only on that you level, you can manage this as polish security and flicked water cannon and tear gas on refugees or their border with bella. luce, what happened to the use much vaunted values and what reforms are needed. also the trouble with facebook and the need for revamped nato all on conflict on gibber house that welcome to conflict zone. let's talk 1st about the migrants who drowned last week since as the crisis of the moment it is, would you think this is going to be the catalyst for some new european policies on migration? i hope so because this tragedy in the, in the north sea is not the, not the 1st tragedy. and we have seen so many casual piece tragedy said in the mid

to reagan. now this is happening in the north sea. so i hope it is. it got the list finally to have a common european migration policy. i because it's already more than 20. yes. that we are talking about the common migration policy. and it never happened because a common migration policy could avoid the tragedies as we have seen last week. france called for urgent talks to discuss this tragedy, but then it disinvited a british minister because it didn't like one of bars. johnson's tweets, you don't do that. if you are serious about finding solutions to you. i don't think that you, you start to do such talks with, with, with tweets and that's maybe the way that is a policy. but that's not the way we do it inside to the european the inside

european union. so i think more important is to concentrate ourselves on what could avoid such tragedies. and again, there a change in the european migration and sign a policy is absolutely key like that is also a need for you k for united kingdom to understand that they are now out of the european union. and they need to take their own responsibility for the migration and the final policy. well, i think i think they understand that i'm talking about diplomatic. i hope so. i'm not sure. i'm not so sure that maybe you understand that i'm not so sure that the, that the british government and body johnson understand this diplomatic stand off may be great fun for governments, but the only people who are going to get hurt by this other migraines isn't the time for everyone to stop playing games with these people's lives it's,

it's at the time now early to do what are the most governments, especially also the british government at all. so other governments have always avoided to do that is to develop a common migration and assign a policy that is based not on unanimity, a ruling on, on the decision by unanimity, but unqualified majority. because that's the reason that we don't have the last 20 years, a common migration, an asylum policy. it is already since 1999, a debt. we decided that migration would be a common policy in the union. and since then, nothing have happened. and the 1st thing to do is to create and to establish a common legal migration of policy. because a many of this tragedies r o, d u. the consequence of the fact that we don't have a legal migration policy in the unit. and the 2nd thing to do is to have common asylum standards in union. so there is no shopping any more possible. and

a 3rd thing to do is to a really better manage our outside borders of the union outside balls of union. yeah, and unfortunately i want to come on to the ants i bought as in a minute. but if, if, if, if e u member countries can't agree on a life and death issue like this, what's the point of the, you the point of the you is that only on the, you level, you can manage this. you see the red brit britain cannot manage a solo, it needs to ask to european union to take action. otherwise, tragedies will continue. tragedies for people want to reach and want to go to a united kingdom. and the point is, art point is as a euro, as the european parliament, we have already said for years. and i hope that in the next conference in the future of europe, we will achieve that, that we need to get rid of unanimity. the problem is that the fact that you need

the approval of 27 member states before you can act. and in the meanwhile, such tragedies are happening because of this impossibility or to go forward on migration policy. because the unanimity or requirement that the that exist today. okay, but at the same time that is not, this is ailing. australia leads out the only feel that it's not the only field the you is facing a major credibility issue because it doesn't just sell goods around the world. it tries to sell values as well. and i'm wondering which values thee was selling when poland was filmed, tear gassing helpless migrants on the border with belarus and showering them with water, cannon and freezing temperatures. not the greatest advert for e e values was it doesn't, doesn't make you sorry what not, no, not, not your. now you're not very objective in the way you're put your question because the problems and the polish border are not a problem caused by european union or caused by poland that are problems caused by

luc ankle. by belarus. you guys was an appropriate way to treat them. i drive to use and abuse or migrants man, they got abused by police. again, that's a problem that has been that it's a problem caused by luca change. so it's not very objective to insert the roles and to do as the migrants of the border between batteries and poland are a problem that has been caused by the european union. that's not, and you know, be very well it's, and what we have done in the meanwhile, is to try to have agreements with dose countries where these people come from. so to avoid that, they are abused by a dictatorship, in the neighborhood of europe in unit as has been the case the last weekend months . and you are right. i deplore as you use of violence in death. so, so some of the you, it, you vented into have resulted and i'm talking about the particularly dirty deal

with the libyan coast guard, paid in effect now by d. u to hunt down my going boats in the mediterranean and human rights violations visited on them. can 20 i yesterday i have that that you're wanting it may be your next time you don't invites me or to have you interview your invite. the commissioner was responsible for that because exactly as a member of parliament, i have criticized this to what's the european commission. i'm not a member of parliament will have to if had to policies of european union. so next time you take european commissioner responsible for these matters and you ask him his questions. i'm as critical as you on the fact that this happening and as the reason why i take that european migration and assign a policy needs to become a european union matter. while it is not to day. because all elements that you have to put forward, the problems in the naulty and the tragedy we have seen in the naughty the problems

at the border between poland embellished the problems in the mediterranean. ah, to wear it, sir. a libya and people coming from there and abuse, there are all the consequence of the fact that all member states are responsible for that. and europe in union is not. so it's not the question of european union. it's a question of a lack of european union, a lack of european migration and asylum policy. but next time my proposal to you is invite the commissioner responsible for it because i am as critical towards for this happening in the media terrain. and in the north he as you do, your critic go about it. the media is critical about it. the reports have been coming in and going to the u. n. and human rights organizations for a long time. and yet nothing gets done about it. why do you think that is a because a, like i, i will explain for the 3rd time of a 4th time now that this policies for the moment are still policies of the member

states. because there is no unanimity inside european council to change this migration policies. even at the moment, when so many people refugees came from or yeah, syria and the conflict in cedar to it was europe. yeah. it misses marigold said okay, be a shuffled us. we got a big them, we got to take them inside germany. that was a national measure without consultation read the us. so we need absolutely a radical change in the way utopian migration and asylum policy is treated in unit. and we have to do it in a common way. we have to do it on the european level, whether good bore the management with common eyes. i'll m and a migration conditions. and with a legal migration part, we, because a lot of the tragedies are in the military and n in the naughty are the consequence of the absence to day of a legal way to come to work to be active as

a migrant in europe. you claimed earlier this year that e integration has been enormously important. you said to enshrine rules, rights and freedoms, into our societies in europe. but in a number of e u countries, those rules exist only on paper, don't they? and your powerless as you said, to do anything above that, hungary and poland for instance, with all the rule of law issues. they know how to game the system, does they and they can paralyze it if they want to hold up discussions on the budget, hold up this and that so far from enshrining your rules, the ear has been strangled by them. isn't though absolutely not. there is a way to tackle this above. there is an unwillingness in european council under d, at some states and government. and under d prime ministers are to tackle that problem. my, what i expect is that with a new german government arriving a government of a socialist liberals and greens,

that this new government will be far more critical on this issue. let's be honest about it. until now. we didn't tackle the problem in angry with didn't to tackle in, in, in poland. it because the european council, under the leadership of mrs marker, was not capable to do it. the volume that was got forest. lou said they've got it and they forgot. they had a car, sorry, the commission launched the procedure on it. and european court of justice also took its responsibility. the only institution would didn't take into responsibility was the european council. and i, i think my expectation is that with new german government arriving, empower now. this will change and we will see really european union who is active using the instruments to make sure that the values in european union also applied in countries like poland and hungary. you've criticized european leaders

for lack of courage. you said the, the instruments, for instance, of with ad for dealing with rule of law issues in pakistan and hungry, exist it. the instruments exist. you said only the courage among leaders is failing . so why do you think you leaders are so gutless on this issue? the of the for the simple reason at that in the council, everything is decided between them. i have never seen in european council and was a long time a member of the european council, one colleague attacking another colleague, one colleague criticizing another colleague, one colleague, a yacht sanctioning, i should say a, another colleague around the table that doesn't tell that doesn't work in european council, therefore, i think with the arrival of a new german government, i think that we'll see europe in castle far more critical towards what is happening in poland and in hungary. and in top of that, i think that in the future, we need to maybe to change the instruments and changing them as it means to give to

european court of justice de capability to competence. not only to give in judgments about what is happening in poland and hungary, but also to decide on sanctions. what is the case in every normal or rule of loan system in every country? so i think that fundamentally and ultimately it will be necessary to give the new competence to european court of justice, but to give them the possibility to decide on sanctions towards countries that are not applying the fundamental values of you know, you mentioned earlier, the conference on the future of europe, which your co chairing, yet another inquiry into what europeans want from their institutions. has there ever been an organization that does not navel gazing and introspection? no, it's not, it's, it's not a consulting won't. it won't. it's absolutely not that while we are organizing the conference on the future of europe is an unseen exercise. well,

we try to combine representative democracy with participatory democracy. the synthesis where you're talking about in totally 800 selected, randomly select that people are not her, are not debt to give their opinion. ah, and it's over. no, no, they are participating in the decision making process. it's will the 1st time i think, in, in, in a modern democracy that the citizens are directly involved in the decision making process. that is what we are doing. and sandra davis, i went them and not many of them either. not many of them. the numbers taking does that known as natalia, this are so small as to by almost irrelevant. i don't know. i don't know. there are, for the moment that are, for the moment, full 1000000 people will are on the platform who have got access to the digital platform. the conference on the future of europe. there are $10.10 of

several, tens of thousands war on daily basis. debating on the future offer d a european union, and in top of that, that has been in a scientific way, 800 people selected. and all these people have nothing to do with european union to participate in the decision making process. we have seen such err. yeah, what we called citizens convention, already in france already in ireland, already in germany. but it's for the 1st time that it is organized on a ben european level. and my expectation of this exercise is not to listen to the citizens because we know what the citizens want. we have the euro barrow meter, we have surveys, like it's in the gaze also in written note, the big difference is that the citizens are, are selected will continue to participate in not only formulating recommendations, but also in the answers. the politicians will diff,

to their wishes and to do recommendations you said to regain people as trust in democracy. we need to fundamentally revisit the way democracy's work. so they are for and with the people instead of that, why not concentrate on result? yes. find a way for 27 different countries to put together on the major problems that are facing them. something that they have conspicuous fun to do. so what does what? well, for the simple reason that the pressure that can be created by a participation of the citizens will be so huge that i am, i am confident that way you can find 2 ways to break the resistance off of some member states to go forward inside to european union, we need the power of the people. we need the power of the citizens inside this conference to go to barriers, for example, the barrier of unanimity. and secondly,

yeah, we need this also this new type of democracy because our liberal democracy, your liberal democracy, our liberal democracy is on the truck to day on the track from outside european union, china, russia. it's also on the inside because of the social media, social media like facebook are in their mining or liberal democracy. so direct involvement of the citizens inside the decision making process of the european union isn't really the good answer. i think a real answer to words. yeah, this degrading the liberal democracy to the social media sbc today. why is my facebook undermining your liberal democracy? why is that the? is that the i think that's, that's obvious. at least everybody understands that when you go on facebook and you

put, i don't know what, for example, chinese communist party, on your facebook, that for the next 5 or 10 years, you will receive mostly only posts and see posts and messages concerning the chinese communist party let me think of anything you put. yeah, but if you have other things you'll get to play. sorry. let me explain the algorithm. this behind the system of facebook are made in such a way that at the end, people only see what they think and not the counter argument. and that's a very good mother to make profits in the us maybe in united states. but it's a very bet mobile for. ready the political is in or liberal democracies. let's come back to the e. you. the question is that often raised about accountability among the commission? do you believe that this commission is accountable?

how many of its commission has ever get fat once and it's history one since 900? 58. is there accountability in the commission? no, that's not, that's not true. that's not true. what you're saying, you're forgot to mention the fact that this parliament that a certain moment has dismissed i who told me a whole commission once and also a commission president in, in the past. that's not true. so that have been many examples of, of that. but it's true that we need to increase the power of this year at the bottom and to make it a real european democracy and the power additional power. that is europe and parliament needs is power and tech station. that is something we are missing for the and, and the 2nd thing, what we need is the right of initiative for this european parliament to initiate

new or proposals. so if you tell me that there is not enough power for european parliament in controlling the commission and in controlling the council and in developing an emerald policy, you're righteous. we talked earlier about what you called, failing courage among europe's leaders. and in 2018 you went further and you said the union tends to be rather weak in the face of global challenges. that was pretty much the case, wasn't it? when donald trump was president, allowing europe to be lectured like naughty school children about nato funding and who you could trade with and who you couldn't. but he degrading wasn't there but yeah, but it's, it didn't fundamentally change with buyer by that or trump boat or, or criticizing a utopian union or for that and for good reasons. not because there is not sufficient funding, but because there is not sufficient cooperation inside europe,

you know, that you're up is spending is spending more than china on, on military expenditures. we are spending in europe without even u. k. 4 times more than the russians on military. the problem on military in europe is not the level of spending. the problem is that we do it $28.00 times $27.00 times now after the breaks it and that we dedicate everything $27.00 times. we spent more or less 35 percent of the americans are military and we can only do 10 percent of the operations of the american army. what does it mean if you spend 35 percent of the americans and can only do 10 percent of the operations that you're treat to 4 times less effect? and that's the consequence of publication. so my plea is that the fastest as possible will create as european defense community as a biller of nate, a european pillar of nato. and that's the real answer to our geopolitical weakness and not spent

a little bit more of tax money as we do today. but do you agree that one of the commissioners, cherry breton said the other day that something is broken in transatlantic relations? and that's neither a reference to trump, nor biden is, is the something that he was talking about temporary or is the trans atlantic alliance coming unstuck? irrespective of who's in the white house, my know what, what, what i see is the absolutely need for a reform of the north atlantic alliance. and why i'm saying that when joe biden is coming a few weeks ago to europe, to the nato summit, he is talking about china. he's talking about china that is in the south pacific. no, that's not the north atlantic. that means that our defense issues to day are not related only to d environment in the north atlantic, but our world wide. and there, there is a need to reform the nato into a global work alliance off democracies. and that unaccompanied mental scale. that

means that in the north american continent, the asian continent, european continent has to do a real effort to create defense communities, to defend or liberal democracies said, the nato is to day still and aligns of individual countries. and what i thing is that we need to trans to tense form it into a real alliance of continental defense communities, defending liberal democracy. you want to reform nato. you want to reform rules inside the european union. you want to change the unanimity row. you want a lot of reforms and you want a federal, a federal europe at the end of it, a sort of one size fits all. it's what if you don't get any of these reforms that long enough that rosie, you got that, that you have a complete misunderstanding of what federalism is, because

a one fits for all that's not that's federal is that's the opposite. it's the opposite. you see, in the united states of america, united states of america, all 50 states with 50 different constitutions, with 50 different armies, and so on and so on. so when i am a, i'm a federalist. that's true. but federalist full. meet means that everything, what you can do in the local level, you know, the local, what you can better do in the national level, what you do better on the national level, but where there is an added value on the european level that you have to do on utopia level, and it's the only way for the europeans to defend our interests, all values on in the new world order that is emerging today is emerging that exist already today. that will be a tie where it will be dis, shenise will, will be decide on our standards. what will be decide on our way of life. and the only way to counter that is to organize a federal democratic in diversity european continent. the european union gave

a house that has been good to have your own conflicts on. thank you very much. ah, ah, ah, ah ah, ah ah, ah, ah ah, ah, ah, ah.

with who now. and he's known for his phoenix sandra, but a tele renaissance genius. but he also had

a dark side for years, he painted helm just as masterfully and mysteriously as the poet dantes depiction thought italy's inferno d w. their importance to the economy is huge. but getting hold of them is often a dirty business. critical commodities make us mo bile make our smartphones smart. how can today's global hunger for lithium cobalt and more the satisfied made in germany 90 minutes on d. w. o. o

. or an eternity. time it can be measured precisely, and yet each person experiences it differently as if there are different forms of type type a phenomena, a dimension and illusion about time starts december 31st on d, w. ah, what people have to say matters to us or mm. that's why we listen to their stories. reporter every weekend on d. w. sometimes a seed is all you need to allow big ideas to grow. we're bringing environmental conservation to life with learning packs like global ideas. we will show you

how climate change and environmental conservation is taking shape around the world and how we can all make a difference. knowledge grows through sharing, download it now for free with. ah, ah, a new line from berlin justice at last for the victims of geoffrey upstate new york jury finds gay lane maxwell guilty of helping the late millionaire sexually abuse young.