how can a country's economy grow in harmony with its people and the environment? when there are doers who look at the bigger picture? india, a country that faces many challenges and whose people are striving to create a sustainable future. deliver projects from europe and india equal india bob d w ah, [000:00:00;00] ah, [000:00:00;00] ah

. the state of the news long from berlin, keeping the door open for a diplomatic solution. russia and the u. s. to discuss the simmering tension surrounding ukraine, but neither wants to give in to the other is demands also coming up. the latest storage in cove at 19 cases is worrying government around the globe. many are imposing new restrictions and looking for ways to stop the spread of the highly transmissible arm across variance plants. we miss we love you. we thank you. south africa as remember anti apartheid icon and nobel peace prize. laurie, it's desmond to tooth. ah, i'm nicole fairly welcome to the program. russian president vladimir putin and his

us counterpart joe biden spoke for nearly an hour on thursday as tensions have been steadily using over what might be a head for the future of ukraine, ukraine, the e u, and the u. s, are concerned about a recent build up of troops near the ukrainian border. washington says it could take no plans to attack. russia meanwhile, says it was a written declaration that ukraine will never be allowed to join the nato military alliance is the 2nd time this month. the 2 leaders have spoken you more talks with senior us, and russian officials are set for january. for more, let's bring in james, curt shake. he's a visiting fellow with the brookings institute, specialize on european politics and u. s. foreign policy strategy. mister cur. take these were the 2nd talks this month between president biden and putin. what results do you expect? i think will be more still made because i don't see the united states backing down

. i said, united states and its allies does this really should not be a conversation between the united states and russia over the heads of the ukrainians. this is, this is about the democratic west, the free world. it's about the european community standing up for the really post world war 2 settlements and values which is that countries are not allowed to invade other countries and sees their territory whenever they like. it was precisely what russia did in 2014 in annexing crimea, and what it's been threatening to do over the past several weeks. so i think the west in the free world needs to stand firm and making clear to mr. bruton that his belly cassidy, will be met with a severe response not only by the european union in the united states, but i also think by ukrainians. i think they'll put up a very tough fight. i don't actually, i don't, i don't think he's going to launch a,

a full scale invasion of ukraine because i think he's quite aware of the consequences of that. now moscow says is worried about what it sees as a growing co operation between nato and ukraine. earlier we spoke about this with andrei court enough, he's with the largely state funded russian international affairs council. let's have a listen and then come back to you. the more the, the movement so of the russian troops are not to cross in the ukrainian border. but i think that the concern of the russian side to ease the nato is extended its military corporation with ukraine and always see our target drones, for example, used in don't boss. all we can see saw in the u. s. made the military hardware utilized in the east of ukraine. and this is something we sure i think her creates concerns and the crown of the to nato might to upgrade its military cooperation with ukraine. so mr. kurt,

russia wants nato to commit to never allowing ukraine to join. you say that the west should stand firm. how likely do you think the by an administration is to scale back cooperation with ukraine in response to these russian concerns? i don't think they will. it's been a pretty strong bipartisan policy in this country over the past, really since the end of the cold war. and certainly, since the invasion of ukraine in 2014, to stand with the sovereign decisions of independent countries in europe and ukraine like any other country, like russia, is allowed to make its own foreign policy decisions, provided that they don't violate or threaten their neighbors. and if there's only one country that's threatening neighbors, it's russia, ukraine. the notion that russia has a legitimate security interest in this feels threatened by nato or by ukraine as preposterous russians are constantly invading their neighbors. they've been doing

this for 70 years and they had a problem with it. and that's what we're seeing again, unfortunate. how can we move forward from this still made from this situation? i think the message needs to be sent to the kremlin that any further violation of ukrainian sovereignty will be met with very punishing sanctions. i think that they should be kicked off the international swift banking system. there should be the certainly in your country in germany, the nor seem to pipeline should not be going forward. that is a major strategic and i would say moral error on the part of the german government is it gives russia enormous leverage over central eastern europe. and over frankly, the political decision making of, of european countries. so that should also be put to a halt. and i also think it,

i think we should be increasing our military support to ukraine. i'm not advocating sending american soldiers or any european country sending their own soldiers to fight in ukraine against russia. certainly, we should be sending them all the military aid and support and arms that they need . right. james card take pleasure speaking to you. thanks for sharing your opinion on that rapidly rising cove at 19 infections are worrying governments around the globe. many countries are hastily introducing limits on new years celebrations and then effort to curb the spread of the virus. and recent days, various countries have registered record numbers of new infections. and officials say the highly contagious on the kron variant is to blame. despite a shortage of tests, the u. k has been reporting record breaking case numbers just like denmark, many countries in europe we're seeing unprecedented peaks amid the rapids spread of the micron variant in germany. case numbers are also rising,

but for now still comparatively low isn't in schools and overall, we're a bit more disciplined than some of our european neighbors. asia masks are especially effective against omicron that sets germany apart. we cannot forget that england and denmark barely had social distancing measures in place recently, and masks were not born. that is certainly different here in germany, just as in bought one sandwich sensual, unless the end of the year come, may be deceptive. few tests were administered during the holidays and numbers reported more slowly. health minister car lauterbach says the actual volume of cases could be 2 to 3 times higher, and a spike may be seen quite soon. queues at test centers are increasing. this location in berlin carries out over a 1000 tests a day. they said we feel it's coming up that the numbers are slowly increasing long distance dying by mid january. that should be a more realistic picture of the situation. but the number of confirmed omicron cases is increasing at

a faster pace in northern germany. as cecilia entirely possible that the proximity to scandinavian nations is a factor, omicron is very dominant there, so the virus may be traveling over the border. i think everyone understands that a virus will not stop at border starting. he's just v was fun again finish. i had my other federal and state officials in germany a do to meet on the 7th of january, to map out a strategy to combat the spread of the virus. and now let's get you up to speed on some of the other stories making news around the world to day. doctors in sudan said security forces have shot dead for protesters during demonstrations against military rule. tens of thousands of people brave tear gas and to find a security lockdown in cartoon and other cities calling for a peaceful transition and free elections. police and hong kong have formerly charged to senior editors from the pro democracy news outlets. sten, news with sedition. they've been identified as former stand news editor in chief

sean on quinn and patrick lamb. the announcement comes a day after authorities read of the offices of stand news. iran says it has launched a rocket carrying 3 satellites into space, stay television, broadcast footage of the launch vehicle and take off. the ron says it's space program is for research purposes only and doesn't breach the nuclear deal, which it is currently not renegotiating with western powers. a jury in the u. s. has found british social. i'm dealing maxwell guilty of helping the late sex offender jeffrey epstein. abuse, underage girls over a period of many years. after days of deliberations, the new york jury found maxwell guilty on 5 of 6 counts, including recruiting, abstains, teenage victims and trafficking, a minor victims of sexual abuse, or calling the verdict of victory. but maxwell's attorney says, an appeal is already underway,

recruiting and grooming teenage victims and trafficking a minor. these are the heavy charges of which british socialite delayed maxwell was found guilty by the new york jury. the road to justice has been far too long. but today, justice has been done, no one, no matter how powerful or well connected it is above the law. jolaine maxwell is the daughter of british newspaper. baron robert maxwell, in court accuser showed evidence of maxwell's close relationship to late fine and sheer and convicted sex offender, jeffrey epstein. epstein was jailed in 2019 based on charges of sex trafficking miners, but he committed suicide in prison while awaiting trial. in the current court case of killing maxwell, she was found to have helped epstein systematically procure young girls some as young as 14. the charges against maxwell were brought forward by 4 victims,

but many more feel they have been served justice. this is a victory for all of the victims of miss maxwell and epstein. moreover, i think this is a victory for all young children, boys, girls, women, and men who are victims of abusers like this. it will give them the needed push to step forward and to speak their truth and to hopefully get justice like these young girls have with respect to miss maxwell. that a fence up to 60 year old is being used as a scapegoat for other people's crimes. i, we firmly believe in glenn's innocence. obviously, we are very disappointed with the verdict. we have already started working on the appeal, and we are confident that she will be vindicated everyone the healthy, have a happy new year. how you doing, maxwell now stands to spend the rest of her life in prison. if she receives the

maximum possible sentence of 65 years. in south africa, a memorial service has been held for the late archbishop desmond tutu, the anti apartheid fighter and nobel laureate, died last weekend, aged 90 is funeral, a set to take place on new years day in cape town. people across the rainbow nation happened remembering too, too, and paying their respects. ah, just a simple wooden coffin for a man whose being remembered as a humble hero. scores gathered in johannesburg and cape town to remember archbishop ameritas desmond to to one of the rainbow nations most revered voices for human rights. his successor embraced one of 22 daughters. she's grieving her tata her father has to, to was known to so many south africans is like

a daughter really in pain cry or cities in bereavement, of new to, to pray for her religion. are sure, however, we love her and we will continue to support her. even word will daughter is going to to didn't want to be remembered with pump. so inside the cathedral, a small ceremony was held. leaders and ordinary south africans alike laid flowers. and those gathered performed songs and some of to two's favorite hymns. ah, his grandson spoke and thanked manas for helping his family through a difficult time. we've been reassured by the outpouring of love and prayers and support. ready that aboard in from around the world,

that he will not be out of mind just because he's out of sight. we miss you. we love you. we thank you. as to to his coffin was carried out, members of the public sang songs and celebration of his life and legacy. oh, born under apartheid, he dreamed of a different south africa and through his ministry he helped bring that nation into being sure. watching dw news from berlin and nick off relish for more headlines and analysis. remember, there is always our website at c, w dot com on social media. you'll find us under act d, w. me and the entire team here in berlin. thank you so much for your company.

ah. people in trucks injured when trying to see the city center? more and more refugees are being turned away. families, planes on the taxi. the reason for these critical illness with administrative people lean extreme dreamed of getting 200 people from the agency around the world. more than 300000000 people are seeking refuge. yes. why? because no one should have to flee. make up your own mind. d. w. laid for mines. ah,

ah, will a new year bring new difficulties for western companies doing business in china? if the end of 2021 is any indicator, then the answer is almost certainly yes. we'll look at a tough new law in the u. s. meant to force more businesses to reckon with supply chains in china, at the risk of angering beijing. also on the show 20 years later, the euro unites much of europe and still divides many opinions. we'll look at how the single currency made it this far. alone walk into the show. i'm from beardsley in berlin. we begin in hong kong were shares in the controversial chinese a. i stopped since time, sirs 23 percent on their market debut. a since time was supposed to list in new york. however, the us treasury blacklisted the firm only a week ago saying it's facial recognition software was designed to oppress weaker muslims in the chinese province of shin. john, the move essentially prohibits american investment in the firm will since times i p

o is the latest example of how western businesses are under pressure over the issue of change on both at home and in china. and that pressure is only growing the united states recently passed off new legislation that puts the onus on businesses to prove that there sourcing is clear of forced labor. a china has target is, is muslim minority, weaker population through a series of internment camps, forced labor programs and intense surveillance. more than a 1000000 wiggers are believed to have been detained. and yet, for companies getting out of business in the region, carries its own perils and u. s. chip maker intel issued an apology last week after informing suppliers in china that would not do business and chin john. the announcement has had caused an uproar across the country and meanwhile, the upcoming winter olympics. and paging is putting further pressure on businesses, but from another angle. western human rights groups criticize u. s. companies sponsoring the events, including air b and b,

coca cola and general electric i. from on this, i'm joined by dexter roberts, he's a journalist and senior fellow at the atlantic council. he's author of the miss the myth of a chinese capitalism. dexter is good to have you on the show. let's start with since time this debut plan for us capital markets, like many companies wanting to go to the biggest capital markets in the world, ending up in hong kong. because the span should we expect to see more companies, more chinese companies choosing this route, whether out of a, whether being force from one side or the other. yeah, absolutely. we're going to see a lot more. we already saw your recall earlier in the month. the announcement by deedee global, the ride healing company, china's china, right? healing company, it's announcement that it was the listing. it's going to the list from the exchange in new york and list in hong kong, presumably. and we've got pressures like that, like that $0.15 time with the treasury sanctions against

a technology companies involved in, in seeing john and human rights abuses. and she and john and then also we've got issues like the one facing dd where the track this, the pressure is coming from a chinese government which wants to control the potential flow of sensitive data to overseas. all right, sure. so pressure from both sides on companies doing business in both countries. want to ask about this new law in the us. this is seen as one of the toughest laws on the books of facing some large companies that are doing business there, including apple, including many textile manufacturers. how tough can this be? will this be, how do you look at it? i think it's a tremendously daunting from the company's perspective. they are being asked. the owners of proof is on them to show that their supply chains in no way are

benefiting or relying rather on forced labor and change on. and you have to keep in mind that they already, sometimes, you know, it's not always easy for them to get to the bottom of, of where their products are being sourced. they tend to focus on their top tier suppliers. they don't want to get in trouble because a 1st or 2nd tier supplier isn't doing something that the us government might see as, as objectionable. but in this case, we have multiple tiers of suppliers. you know, 23456 level suppliers. and if any of those are relying on forced labor in china and particularly in change on those companies are going to be held responsible. so honestly they, they haven't done terribly good job in previous years of managing and monitoring their, the multiple tiers of their suppliers. and now they're being asked to do it to an

even greater degree. one last thing i would mention, china has its own law, which forbids chinese companies from cooperating with overseas sanctions. so china, the suppliers of companies like intel and many other companies. they're, they're now going to potentially push back and say, well, they don't want to, you know, if they're asked whether they're sourcing from john and using force labor. they very well may push back and not answer that or not be be able to, we're willing to address that issue or putting those companies in a further bond addicts or briefly what kind of backing can us expect from the you when it comes to this hard line against china briefly, if you could i think that we're seeing a sort of, if you will, and increasing mean of mines over everything from concerns about china's merc until us trade practices to issues like human rights abuses. and i think with the election in germany as well, we see a, an announcement, but by, by, in this case,

by the green party that they want to have more values based on foreign policy. and i think we'll see more of him going forward. or i text roberts as a journalist and senior fellow with the atlantic council. thank you very much. thank you. one currency, 19 countries, countless opinions on its future. the euro made its debut 2 decades ago. this weekend on the monitor union, it's cemented, has led to prosperity, but also an ongoing argument about budgeting, economies, and even fairness across europe's diverse economies. a symbol of hope and prosperity for all of europe. smiles and cheers in front of the european central bank in frankfort on new year's eve. the night before, 12 countries swapped out their old bank notes for the freshly minted europe. since then, europeans can travel within the eurozone without the hassle of exchanging

currencies. companies also profited as trade within the monetary union sharply increased. now on the eve of 2022 more than 340000000 people in 1900 e u. countries used to come in currency every day. as its introduction, one euro cost $1.00 us dollar and 7 cents in 2008. it reach its all time high of almost one us dollar and 60 cents just before the start of the global financial crisis. that was also the 1st real test for the euro. critic said the massive bailout packages needed to save the economies of southern europe were proof that a single currency for economy is as different as germany and greece had been a recipe for disaster. indeed, the crisis put the euro under unprecedented pressure. speculators tried to caching on the looming failure of the common currency in 2012. however,

the president of the e. c. b spoke words that would go down in history. the c, b is ready to do whatever it takes to preserve the euro. and believe me, it will be enough. the e. c. b was pushing the envelope and had worked the euro survive the financial crisis. to day, a tough new test. the corona pandemic locked downs have placed a heavy burden on the national budgets of the euro countries. in 2020 they took on joined it. for the 1st time ever. critics of the euro say this move makes financially weaker countries a burden on those which stronger economies. many others, however, still see the euro as the best opportunity for the european union countries to grow even closer. or let's go to james sweeney in new york. hello, james. that piece really pointing out the strong role of central banks and safeguarding a currency that something that we're seeing now, again, with

a pandemic, both in europe and in the u. s. however, in this case, the central bank seem to be diverging. the fed is tightening, as prices rise, the easy bees as it's holding on. what did these diverging policies tell us about these pandemic economies as we had into the new year? it's funny because this is kind of playing out like a movie trailer, you know, you get 2 different banks to different regions, 2 different approaches, which one is gonna rain supreme in the coming year. but when you put all those jokes aside, it's going to be interesting in a must watch in 2022 because both banks in a different approaches really are showing how different the you, when you s, are at handling a possible pandemic exit. it's kind of like a boxing match because in one corner you've got the a, you, christine le guard. and besides that depend on mc is what's the pressing, the euro zone threatening growth. and that in order to ensure recovery, an exit, the spinning needs, the maintainable flexibility and as well as optionality, while making this a step by step process and that one massive full exit. well in the other corner you

have in the red, white, and blue trunks. the federal reserve, jerome powell, leading the charge being definitive, saying the u. s. will end all of its bond buying by march, accelerate. the time table for interest rate increases. inflation may be at 31 year high, but the u. s. is heading towards strong growth and full employment. and now who's with me? it's so different in terms of their approach total opposites. and the truth is, what is different approaches are doing? they're setting the stage for a very choppy 2022 with the fed determines and as a purchase, as, as fast as possible. hybrids as soon as possible, while the e. c. b is more hesitant to ship. so decisively, in that direction, step by step, not a full on rush. all right, james sweeney calling a match from new york. thank you very much. and let's go to some of the other global business stories making headlines. i key is hiking prices by 9 per cent due to ongoing global constraints on transport. raw materials. the swedish flat pack furniture giant said it tried to avoid the hike by leasing more ships and

optimizing logistics. but as supply chain turmoil persists, it is now passing higher production costs on to with customers. you numbers from chinese ride hell in giant dd show the firm last $4700000000.00 in the 3rd quarter of 2021. and that follows the increase scrutiny from chinese regulators that started after it's new york. i p o. the summer talked about that earlier. beijing has targeted numerous tech companies with stricter rules. and what critics are calling it coordinated crackdown and that's it for me. in the dw business team here in berlin for more finest online he w dot com slash business in beardsley,

thanks for watching into the conflict. so with tim sebastian, at least $27.00 migrant parish in the english channel. will this now force europe to commit to say for migration policy, give a huff starting ruffled member of the european parliament and the former prime minister in belgium? one huffman for the use much more value, and what performs in india conflict zone. on d, w with small lags and can inspire big changes to meet the people making it on go africa joined them as they set out to save the environment, learn from one another and, and work together for a better future. maybe thoughts? do you all for tuning it to africa?

in 60 minutes on d, w o. ah, hello guys. this is the 77 percent. the platform for africa. you to defeat issues and share ideas you know, are the channels we are not of great detached and delicate tub applicant population is growing. and young people clearly have the solution. the future belongs to the 77 percent. now, every weekend on dw this week on conflict zone,

at least 27 my guns perish in the english channel. will this now force europe to commit to safer migration policy? i hope it is a catalyst that finally give our hofstadter in brussels member of the european parliament and the former prime minister of belgium. if e u member countries can't agree on a life and death issue like this, what's the point of the you only of that you level, you can manage this as polish security, inflict water cannon, and tear gas on refugees or their border with bella. bruce, what happened to the use much vaunted values and what reforms are needed. also the trouble with facebook and the need for a revamped nato all on conflict on givea hofstadter. welcome to conflict zone. let's talk 1st about the migrants who drowned last week since asked the crisis of the moment it is, would you think this is going to be the catalyst for some new european policies on

migration? i hope so because this tragedy in the, in the north sea is sir, not 3rd, not the 1st tragedy. and we have seen so many a casualty, sir, or treasure these in the mid to reagan. now this is happening here or in the, on the north sea. so i hope it is a catalyst there finally, to have a common, a european migration policy or a because it's already more than 20 years. that we are talking about the common migration policy. and it never happened because a common migration policy could to avoid the tragedies as we have seen her last week. france called for urgent talks to discuss this tragedy. but then it disinvited a british minister because he didn't like one of bars. johnson's tweets, you don't do that if you're serious about finding solutions, do you i don't thing that you, you start to do

a search talks with, with, with tweets and that sir, maybe the way a truck um, and it is a policies. but that sir, not the way we do it inside the d european the inside european union. so i think it more important is to concentrate ourselves on our what could avoid search or tragedies. and again, there a change in d, a european ah, migration, and sign of policy is absolutely key. or like there is also a need for the okay, for united kingdom to understand that they are now out of the european union and they need to take their own responsibility for down migration, an asylum policy or what. but i think totally understand al reciting. i think they understand that i'm talking about a diplomatic go up, so i'm not sure. i'm not so sure that maybe you understand that i'm not so sure that the, that the british government and buddy johnson understand that this diplomatic stand

off may be great fun for governments. but the only people who are going to get hurt by this are the migrants, isn't it time for everyone to stop playing games with these people's lives? it's, it's at the time now earth to do what are the most governments, especially also the british government, but also other governments have always avoided to do that is to develop a common migration and assign a policy that is based not on unanimity, a ruling on, on the decision by unanimity but unqualified majority because that's the reason that we don't have the last 20. yes. a common migration and asylum policy. it is already since 1999, a debt. we decided that migration would be a common policy in the union. and since then, nothing have happened. and the 1st thing to do is to create and to establish a common legal migration of policy. because a many of this tragedies, r o,

d u, the consequence of the fact that we don't have a legal migration policy in the union. and the 2nd thing to do is to have common asylum standards in union. so there is no shopping any more possible. and a 3rd thing to do is to a really better manage our outside borders of the union outside walls of the union . yeah, and unfortunately i want to come on to the ants. i bought it in a minute, but if, if, if, if e u member countries can't agree on a life and death issue like this, what's the point of the, you the point of the you is that only on the, you level, you can manage this. you see the red brit britain cannot managers, although it needs to ask to european union to take action. otherwise, tragedies will continue. tragedies for people want to reach and want to go to a united kingdom. and the point is, art point is as a euro, as the european parliament,

we have already said for years. and i hope that in the next conference in the future of europe, we will achieve that, that we need to get rid of unanimity. the problem is that the fact that you need the approval of 27 mabis days before you can act. and in the meanwhile, such tragedies are happening because of this impossibility or to go forward on migration policy. because the unanimity or requirement that the that exist today. okay, but at the same time that is not this is ailing on the leads out the only feel that it's not the only field the you is facing a major credibility issue because it doesn't just sell goods around the world. it tries to sell values as well, and i'm wondering which values thee was selling when poland was filmed, tear gassing helpless migrants on the border with belarus and showering them with water, cannon and freezing temperatures. not the greatest advert for you. values was it

doesn't, doesn't make you sorry what not, no, not, not. you're. now, you're not very objective in the way you're put your question. because the problems at the podium border are not a problem caused by european union or caused by poland that are problems caused by luc ankle by belarus. you guys was an appropriate way to treat them. i tried to use and abuse or migrants, but they got abused by police. again, that's a problem that has been that it's a problem caused by luca change. so it's not very objective to insert the roles and to do as the migrants of the border between batteries and poland are a problem that has been caused by the european union. that's not, and you know, it's very well it's and what we have done in the meanwhile is to try to have agreements with dose countries where these people come from. so to avoid that, they are abused by a dictatorship in the neighborhood of european union,

as has been the case at the last weekend months. and you are right. i deplore as you use of violence in that. so, so some of the you, it, you vented into have resulted and i'm talking about the particularly dirty deal with the libyan coast guard, paid in effect now by d. u to hunt down my going boats in the mediterranean and take the human rights violations visited on them. can sante, i guessed it, i had it that you're wanting, it may be your next time you're done, invites me to have you interview your invite. the commissioner was responsible for that because exactly as a member of parliament, i have criticized this to what's the european commission. i'm not a member of parliament we'll have to if had to policies of european union. so next time you take european commission are responsible for these matters and you ask him his questions. i'm as critical as you on the fact that is happening. and as the

reason why i take that european migration and assign a pulse, he needs to become a european union matter why that is not to day. because all elements that you have to put forward the problems in the naulty in the tragedy we have seen in the naughty the problems at the border between poland and bellows. the problems in the mediterranean, ah, to wear it, sir. a libya and people coming from there and abuse, there are all the consequence of the fact that our member states are responsible for that. and europe in union is not. so it's not the question of european union. it's a question of a lack of european union, a lack of european migration and asylum policy. but next time my proposal to you is invite the commission responsible for it because i am as critical towards for this happening in the media terrain and in the naughty as you do, your critic go about it. the media is critical about it. the reports have been coming in and going to the u. n. and human rights organizations for

a long time. and yet nothing gets done about it. why do you think that is a because a, like i, i will explain for the 3rd time of a 4th time now that this policy's for the moment asked old policies of the member states because there is no unanimity inside european council to change this migration policies even at the moment when so many people refugees came from huh. yeah, syria and the conflict and see her 2 words. europe. yeah. it misses marigold said okay, be a shuffle. thus we gun at the big them. we gonna take them inside germany. that was a national measure without consultation read the us. so we need absolutely a radical change in the way utopian migration. an asylum policy is treated in unit and we have to do it in a common way. we have to do it on the european level, whether good border management with common eyes, i, ll, m and

a migration conditions and with a legal migration part where because a lot of the tragedies are in the military and, and in the naughty are the consequence of the absence to day of a legal way to come to work to be active as a migrant in europe. you claimed earlier this year that e integration has been enormously important. you said to enshrine rules, rights and freedoms, into our societies in europe. but in a number of e u countries, those rules exist only on paper, don't they? and your powerless as you said to do anything about that. hungary and poland for instance, with all the rule of law issues. they know how to game the system, does they and they can paralyze it if they want to hold up discussions on the budget, hold up this and that so far from enshrining your rules, the ear is being strangled by them isn't though absolutely not. there is a way to tackle this above. there is an unwillingness in european council under

d at some states and government. and under d prime ministers are to tackle that problem. my, what i expect is that with a new german government arriving a government of a socialist liberals and greens, that this new government will be far more critical on this issue. let's be honest about it. until now. we didn't tackle the problem and angry with didn't to tackle in, in, in poland. it because the european council, under the leadership of mrs. malika was not capable to do it. the volume that was ga forests. lou said they would get it on. they think they had a car, sorry, the commission launched the procedure on it. and european court of justice also took its responsibility. the only institution would didn't take into responsibility was the european council. and i, i think my expectation is that with new german government arriving empower now.

this will change and we will see really european union who is active using the instruments or to make sure that the values in european union also applied in countries like poland and hungary. you've criticized european leaders for lack of courage. you said the, the instruments, for instance, of that with a for dealing with rule of law issues in pakistan and hungry to exist it the instruments exist. you said only the courage among leaders is failing. so why do you think you leaders are so gutless on this issue? the of for the simple reason at that in the council, everything is decided between them. i have never seen in european council and was a long time, a member of the european council. one colleague attacking another colleague, one colleague tried the sizing and other colleague, one colleague, a yacht sanctioning, i should say, a, another colleague around the table that doesn't tell that doesn't work in european council, therefore, i think, or which the arrival of

a new german government. i think that we will see europe in castle far more critical towards what is happening in poland and in hungry. and in top of that, i think that in the future, we need to maybe to change the instruments and changing them as it means to give to european court of justice d capability to competence. not only to give in judgments about what is happening in poland and hungary, but also to decide on sanctions. what is the case in every normal or rule of loan system in every country? so i think that fundamentally and ultimately it will be necessary to give the new competence to european court of justice. what to give them the possibility to decide on sanctions towards countries that they are not applying the fundamental values of, you know, you mentioned earlier, the conference on the future of europe, which your co chairing, yet another inquiry into what europeans want from their institutions. has there

ever been an organization that does my navel gazing and introspection? no, it's not. it's, it's not to consulting, was it pumped is absolutely not that what we are organizing. the conference on the future of europe is an unseen exercise. well, we try to combine representative democracy with participatory democracy. the synthesis war you're talking about in totally 800 selected, randomly selected people are not her or not dad, to give their opinion. ah, and it's over no, no doubt, participating in the decision making process. it's will the 1st time i think in, in, in a modern democracy, a dad to citizens are directly involved in the decision making process. that is what we are doing. but sandra davis, i went them and not many of them either. not many of them. the numbers taking down that are known as natalia. this are so small as to by almost irrelevant. i don't

know. i don't know. there are for the moment that are, for the moment,