for those nato members who feel very, very vulnerable, and that of course, 1st and foremost includes the baltic republics where germany leads the battle group for nato in lithuania, with now a total of around $950.00 german soldiers on the ground. they are, so there will be more discussion about what needs to be done to ensure their security. a lot to talk about melinda. we're going to continue the talk in just a moment. i just want to bring people up to date who might just be joining us here at the top of the hour. we are part of our comprehensive coverage here of russia's full scale invasion of ukraine. the russian military, using airstrikes and artillery to attack targets across the country, including big cities and the capital key as well. ukraine says its army is fighting back civilians are trying to flee. in some places. there are reports of casualties that are starting to come in. nato's chief is called the fact brutal act of war and his race, the alert level for the alliance and forces. and the you, as we just heard, is vowing to impose severe sanctions. melinda,

just coming back to the topic now, because if we can take a step back, i mean, how much of a wake up call is this really, especially for germany, which has been criticized for waffling, if you will, on its policy towards russia in the previous month. indeed, in january, there were headlines here in the german media that said, mister schultz, where are you asleep at the wheel and such? because he essentially had very, very little to say as the tension mounted a in russia and, and over ukraine. and there was a sense that germany might dry gets feet on what could potentially be one of the biggest sanctions of all, namely halting the nord stream to pipeline. as you know that in fact finally happened. earlier this week, chancellor schultz announced it in a characteristically dry and understated way, but in fact, it is

a major message that germany is absolutely aligned with its transit atlantic and european partners. and that is absolutely going to pull its weight in the whole sanctions package. so i think what we have seen is an evolution, certainly of a german policy making. a chancellor schultz has now taken a number of initiatives, including as i mentioned shoring up the battle group in lithuania, in an effort to strengthen deterrence of a further russian action in regard to the baltics. and i think for germans in general, there has long been a sense that a good commercial relations with russia would somehow be a safeguard against against russia. perhaps taking a harsh action,

a sense that commercial relations keep lines of communication open and thereby ensure some form of stability and peace. you can call it naive and many have, and i think that naivete, we're now seeing it disappear, go up in smoke, because certainly it is now clear that vladimir putin has been lying for weeks, and that he has lied directly to mister schultz. 2 french president mac crawl in their efforts to mediate with him as you know, schultz was in moscow just 9 days ago meeting with lot of me put in and put in a basically always with, with 2 lines. one line that of course he's still going to engage in diplomacy and, but he does have his security interests and so on that with the public face.

clearly, the secret face is the one we are now seeing, and indeed we heard from the native secretary, general insult and bird that the west believed. this was a long plant invasion that this, that i'd like to put in mind was made up some time ago. if, as it seems to be the case at the moment that this really is not just about the don bassett, but we are seeing a sustained invasion in many parts of ukraine at the moment. what can the west actually do to deter vladimir putin from going fully towards toppling the government in key if they will impose stronger sanctions? based on what we're seeing so far from vladimir putin, it seems unlikely that they will deter that course, that he has already decided upon. and he made that very clear also in his dress last night when he said that they would be pressing toward kiev. and his forces and that they would be looking to hold the regime as he calls it in key of

the legitimate ukrainian government, accountable. whatever that means. therefore, that clearly is a course that he is determined to act upon. and he has said before, sanctions don't scare him, he has, in fact, spent spent years trying to sanction proof. the russian economy has a great big pile of currency reserves that it will now be forced to draw down. presumably, if in fact the next sanctions target those big banks it, he has endeavored to create an economy that is somewhat impervious at least to the kind of trade restrictions that are apparently are now in the offing. nonetheless, we mustn't make any mistake. the sanctions are going to hurt. the russian economy is going to to hurt. it will be damaged. but hootin isn't autocrat. he's an authoritarian leader. he can for some time maintained his course of action.

undoubtedly in the face a sub sanction. does that mean it's it, it's essentially worthless to impose sanctions. certainly not. germany is foreign minister made it clear yesterday we impose sanctions for 2 reasons. one reason is that we hope to deter a further escalation. the other one is we must reinforce our norms. we must show that there is punishment sanction for violating absolutely crucial norms of international law, including the violation of territorial integrity and sovereignty that we see in here. that is the center piece of the post war order in europe. and mister putin has tread upon that. and one more question, melinda, on what more the west can do. we know the ukrainian foreign minister essentially issuing a list of, of what ukraine's needs are at the moment on twitter earlier. one of them was, of course, to isolate president putin holy and completely with such sanctions, but also financial assistance, humanitarian systems,

and so on and so forth. so what more support can the west provide? in fact, the, you already pledged this week additional financial assistance for ukraine, their economy also obviously very, very badly hurt by these developments. so that money will be flowing. undoubtedly, we will see additional offers of financial economic support. then there's more discussion on going about defensive weapons for ukraine, the baltics insisting that we must send additional defensive supplies to ukraine. frankly, the ukranian forces are vastly outnumbered by the russian forces. how much that would then, you know, prolong the conflict hard to say, but that will be an ongoing topic until yesterday, german leaders were saying they still did not plan to send defensive weaponry. as you know, german law prohibits sending weapons to conflict zones. that's been

a big debate here all along. whether that changes is unclear for now. i would tend to doubt it, but we don't know. ok, thanks melinda, for that analysis so far we'll keep talking in just a moment. i want to get another perspective now on what's been happening on russia's invasion. we have thomas kline up woke up with us, sees the vice president at the american public policy thing tank, the german marshal fund, he overseas the organizations activities here in germany. thomas is good to have you with us here in d w, we heard the german chancellor left. she'll say earlier, this is a dark day for europe. what is your assessment of the impact of this attack on ukraine? it certainly will have an impact on this country. it will have an impact on the, on the neighborhood, on the neighborhood of ukraine 1st. but let me start with the impact on this country because it shatters the consensus about foreign policy in this country. for

the last 30 years and that consensus was that we live in a world where we are in circled as it was said by for a we're in 1992 to then defense minister, encircled by friends and that allowed us a great it's a great business model, we got security from the united states. we got our energy from russia, and we had our market in china. that business model. and that way of thinking is dead as of last night. there is going to be a big rethink of german foreign and security policy and horn energy policy in this country that will need to happen. now. that's an interesting point. and if you look at what response should come now from the west, from germany, from the european union, we've seen that the ukranian president of letter milan, sky, cut, all diplomatic ties with russia today. should the e, you do the same?

i mean, can the west still talked of louder mutant after what we see we always need to be in a position to talk it. cutting diplomatic ties is understandable from a, from a ukrainian perspective. and there needs to be retaliation. there needs to be an end to impunity, but diplomatic ties is the wrong way to go about this. we will, there will be a day after the, the phase of military conflict, and we will need to deal even with an author a terry and addict tauriel. i should say, russia, the question is what you can achieve with, with with diplomacy. the western leaders have been lied to for weeks and months. nothing of what the russian autocrat told them was true. and nothing of what he said in his declaration meets the perception of reality,

that western leaders half. so the gap is so large that it is clear to me what it can achieve, but cutting ties is the wrong way to go about it. i want to ask you about what we saw from germany's former defense minister on a good come cullen bower. today, she put out this tweet that went viral lumber, going to bring up the tweet, read it quickly. she said, quote, i'm so angry at ourselves for our historical failure after a georgia crimea and don bass, so we have not prepared anything that could have or would have really deterred putin. and thomas, you agree with that? i mean, is what we're seeing happening. the result of a failure in the recent years here in germany. i would tend to agree with that, but i would also mentioned that the author of these lines understand this well because she tried to position against this consensus. she was the one to ring

the alarm bell, she was the one to position the german armed forces in a different way that to resource them differently. she was the one who got it, and she is the one who now goes out on twitter and says collectively for law in the way we have failed to assess. let me i want to ask you also about what we heard are russia, ferris correspondence said earlier, she spoke of a possible new iron curtain coming down in eastern europe. and you said this is time for a big rethink of foreign and security policy here in germany. so could you see that happening? that's what i am still struggling with. is this akin to an iron curtain? yes, big fences make good neighbors if your neighbor threatens you, as happened this morning, there was a veiled nuclear threat in which in what mister port and as said, so the consequence of that might easily be some new cold war. and the question is

now how to avoid that, how to draw lines, how to more effectively deter, but also not to fall back into a into a dark pass that nobody dares to relive is. so is there a, is there a variation to that, that, that can lead us to a better to terms and determines by the way, will enable us also to talk with mr. booth. one of the reasons mr doesn't talk with us is and western listeners. my find this, this awkward is because we don't threaten him. there is no deterrence that we post toward him. so i would expect once we change that we are, we will also be in a better position and position from strength in which we can actually deal with russia in a better way. so to your question, a new iron curtain is, is it is

a dramatic historic memory that nobody wishes to relive. but mr. newton certainly took us away towards that tonight at thomas, if i can follow up on what you said, i mean essentially what the west has been threatening. president putin, with over the last few weeks, is a package of severe and what they have called crippling sanctions. ones that will have a severe impact on russia as industry on its technology, on its economy for years to come. are you saying that that is simply not a threat enough to president putin? yes, that's what i'm saying. that is what we can do now. that is what we ought to be doing now, but we also should be realistic about what they can achieve and how long we wish to uphold these measures. is are these designed to be were days were weeks for years. sanctions usually is an instrument of policy. they are not

a policy in an off themselves, so we're going to need a new rush of policy, and that new russia policy will need to contain, consist of more realism and more did turns in order to get to speaking terms with mr. and what about the other side of that coin thomas supporting ukraine as this invasion continues and going to ukraine. suffer massively as it already is that what can germany, what can the european union do to best support ukraine right now? the question is whether there will be a ukraine after this, mr. potent has declared last night that he, he aims for disarmament and di napoli, if occasion, as he called it, of ukraine. so there will be and he has question, the mere existence of the state of ukraine. so the question, so my question will be, who is at the helm? who needs to be supported?

are we in a position to then have humanitarian helped to the people of ukraine? will there be a government that is to be supported? think that's what we need to, to, to see how this plays out. and thomas one last question. so you really see this as a moment of a paradigm shift in europe. i do see this as a paradigm shift. it is 30 years of exceptional, of an exceptional order of an exceptional way of dealing with each other. i have come to an end with mister potent sections and threats last night, thomas klein of aka from the german marshall fun. thank you so much for sharing your insights with us. thank you. and we had the opportunity earlier to speak to our correspondent mathias billing, and he is in eastern ukraine driving west back to kiev. and we asked him what was happening,

where he was at the moment. so we have been driving through center ukraine, basically here. it's still quiet. we've seen, of course, some military equipment be moved, but not a lot. we've also seen some smoke rising. we've stopped in a, in a few places. there were long queues, gas station and h, e. m. people stocking up in the morning. we were in the, in a place where people were buying food, but he was all on the street with people remained quite calm. they were doing the preparations. calmly. there was no panic. traffic has been rather normal there. quite a few calls on the trees. he's not smaller roads, but we have not seen k o so far. we personally also have much witness had the attacks that have been, of course,

attacks all over the country to come to the places i want to ask you about that. we are, of course, here in berlin, it's difficult for us to confirm the veracity of so many of the videos and images that are coming into us. he said, you haven't witnessed any attacks, but what have you been hearing there on the ground about the military invasion about the targets that have been hit so far. and perhaps what we know about casualties at this point. we know that the russian army is invading from 3 sites from the south from crimea. also, it seems been on them for the most important southern port that these attacks would have been from the seaside. troops have entered the country from the north, from bella, rose from the russian regions, western russia regions, and has have the title in the john box. the region where we were in the morning.

people have told us most places that have been attacked by asked try the military places, but then there's also how long have along the line of contact with these self proclaimed republic, which has recognized a few days ago. and we also have the call waiting around the source is the, with the russian army trying to move on to key in the fight around one of the chords. what's the key is so we see we also have the fights from the town in the north east. the town is very close to the russian border. less than 2 kilometers russian troops also moving on

there. they seem to get into the city. so all over the country are all along the border zones. have you fighting the center west seem to be still quiet. b s, troy excellent reports and military facilities. also in, in these parts of the country and western western and central region ok are corresponding mathias billing or who was ed reporting in the eastern part of ukraine. now driving back to kiev mathias, thank you so much for giving us that update. and please do stay safe reminder if you're just joining us. so where things stand. russia has launched a full scale invasion of ukraine with attacks being carried out by air and land force across the country. he says dozens have been killed and many have been injured in an assault. but nato says amounts to a cold blooded invasion. western leaders avowed to oppose crippling sanctions as

thousands of ukrainians scramble to leave the biggest city. and let's bring in our chief political editor, michelle, a crew for me. hello, we heard your me nice economy. he missed that minister rather speaking earlier saying that new sanctions, this new package of massive sanctions will hurt russia badly. so what is on the table? yes. well certainly, and those will be sanctions that will target to the flow of cash. we're still waiting to learn whether that will include the whole swift system, which is the bill payment system. he also warned that these sanctions are designed to hit rasa very hard, but the it will not be able to be prevented that if they can hit some german industries, we understand that some technology in that would hamper the advance of

rosser developing a would be involved in that it would be good stat, and russia only gets from europe and the west and couldn't just easily buy from china. so there's not simply a shift to another supplier. so these will be very heavy sanctions. but also we heard the german trade minister say that these are the side effects of hitting the german economy. the european economy would be a price that would need to be paid for full freedom for peace in the future. also, he was asked about energy dependency. germany in particular is highly energy dependent . 40 percent of its gas comes from russia, 35 percent of its oil. and essentially we heard the trade in climate minster, promising that there would be enough energy to get germany through this winter and that germany is diversifying europe is diversifying very fast. right now. what

about the debate meter ala that has been raging here in germany, over whether to send weapons, defensive weapons to ukraine? we know that some of germany's allies have chosen to do so until now. germany's position has been that it will not and weapons. it sounds like some of the tones here in berlin are changing on that today. so where does it stand at the moment? well, clearly we've moved from an overarching majority saying for historical reasons, it's a complete no go to now a new debate flaring up individual really respected figures, no matter how it can. the former head of the foreign affairs committee, a prominent figure and anger, lack of conservative party, now no longer in government, but he was one who most clearly said i have now changed my mind. it was wrong, not to say anything. and now he's in favor of sending something. the other question mark is whether the military is actually able to really make any defensive weapons available at. so notice a for ukraine is sent 5000 helmet,

that germany quite a bit of ridicule internationally. although that was on the, on the request list, it was still in the process of reviewing a 2nd list of from ukraine. but then this, this happened to these efforts. all of these debates actually have been overtaken by events. and there's been a session by the social democrat m, p group in parliament. and today, where they're still until a few days ago was a group saying, wow, you know, one has to take ross's considerations or rushes feelings much more into consideration. we're, we've seen a lot of u turns actually during the course of the day a, with a parliamentary group leader who in the past was seen to someone who really is airing on the side of caution saying one has to give russia something a connect some point to europe, he's now calling vladimir putin a war criminal. so it is quite a sobering day here for german politicians now forced in an instant to redefine

a relations towards relations against russia. with this war being forced on europe, it beg the question with ala, whether these u turns and policy here in germany are perhaps coming too late, especially with this invasion, already having started and really nothing essentially standing in the way of president putin. if you were to do so, toppling the government here or quite clearly. i mean, it is a political failure and we saw the former defense minister anecdote come convo. i didn't know whether you were gonna fight or just now come out and say exactly that this was a failure. this is, this is a prominent figure. it doesn't have anything to lose any more in political, political terms here in germany, and really saying it's a historic failure of german policy and not to bolster own abilities just in case something like this happens. this is also before defense minister, she talked of a trade agreement with america and north america. more in strategic terms rather

than economic terms. frankly, talking military is not something a german politician. certainly not the german public feels comfortable with. and that puts german chance at all. so it's still within his 1st 100 days in office, into a position where he will have to explain to a german public to make economic sacrifices. and why all of a sudden and defense security policy is a cool political theme, which is something that in the past many politicians avoided because it really was talks it where it talks it, when it came to the polls. and i thank you, michelle love, we're going to come back to you then in a little bit. us go right to key of our correspond funny for char, standing by for us. funny. bring us 1st of all, up to date on what you've been seeing and hearing there, what's happening in the ukrainian capital just before i've been hearing,

once again, sirens blaring the food that quite often today. in fact, for the very 1st time, shortly after the 1st explosion here, here around 4 am or shortly after letting me put in declared, quote, a military operation against ukraine. now that military operation actually turns into a full scale invasion of several rocketed various cities and invasion by land, by air, by sea. that is what is happening right in ukraine and people here and keep the ones who are staying out, hoping that maybe what we had experienced this morning, the explosions to sharing that maybe this is it. but if you ask me to be so many things happening over the course of the past day, that nobody thought is likely and turned out to be real politic. for example, the recognition of the 2 self proclaimed states in the dawn bus regional has and

don, yes, that have been a claim that have been a basically taken as a declared as, excuse me, as an independent region. and also letting me put you saying the basically ukraine doesn't have the right to exist as a state. so that clearly signals that, unfortunately more likely more is to come. even though this point things seem to be con. behind me we have seen a lot of ukrainian security forces. we cannot independently verify actually water, those shelling. so what does explosions have hit? but there are reports that the military airport just 50 kilometers from here when also attacked as well as a building, which is supposedly the military intelligence headquarters. yeah, that's some of the information that we've seen coming here as well. funding can you give us an idea? we mentioned that there are some reports of initial casualties. what can you tell us about that? i would be careful to talk about any numbers at this at this point,

simply because we cannot verify them, but according to ukrainian, ukraine's official sources are they are saying that several soldiers have been killed or they have been people have been injured. i do not know at this point about civilians, but unfortunately a regardless of the numbers to say. so already the shelling there in the bus region was so have the over the course of the past days that it's very likely or fortunately that we will have those numbers. and even those numbers increasing when it comes to casualty. so both among civilians and military grania military forces, people here actually kia, it's been really astonishing for me how they react and differently, they react to the assault that are being carried out by russian forces at this point. some people have been praying here in front of across others. again, we're trying to leave a lot of people are actually stuck in traffic right now. because the way out from

keith is really a difficult to take people. i've been lying up at gasoline stations filling up that gas tube be prepared. oh, if there's traffic, they have to go another way. how to get out of the country to various scenarios here by people on the ground in terms of how to react. well, again, i've also met people who say they want to stay here. they want to defend their country. and in fact, president zalinski said everyone who just able to hold a gun should join and defend ukraine's sovereignty. yeah, funny. we have seen some of those remarkable images of that long convoy of cars, of people who are trying to leave ukraine indeed and, and get out if they can particularly cars leaving t. as you mentioned, the recreating president vladimir salons, he tell us more about what he has been saying and what the government is doing right now. we saw that pretty interesting speech from him last night where he spoke directly to the russian people to also appeal.