with d, w. stories that move people the world over information. they provide the peons they want to express. d, w on facebook and twitter up to date and in touch. follow us. mm. mm hm. the crisis surrounding rushes, invasion of ukraine suddenly seems even more frightening than before. and people have begun to think the unthinkable. this has russian president vladimir poets in threatened to the world at large, suggesting perhaps that he could be ready to use nuclear weapons. it's a move that has triggered widespread fears, unparalleled since the cold war. so the question we're asking here on to the point is put in threat. he's russia ready to use the nuclear option

with . and to discuss that question i'm joined to by terry shows. she is security and defense specialist with deutsch vela in brussels. welcome to you. also with us is another d w colleague flooded me. jesse paul from our russia desk had joined us from london and a warm welcome to to mel to laming. who's with me here in the studio? he's with the berlin daily newspaper, the talker speaker, and marty. let me begin with you and let him in to put into announcement that he is putting nuclear forces on high alert. the debate must be that he is willing to use a nuclear auction. is that how it seems to you? not really. i mean it's, it's, it's always hard to tell what is what is in the mind in the head of vladimir putin but, but if he's really willing to do it,

or if it's more aiming at the nerve costume of the west, trying to spread fear and try to dis, unify the astonishingly unified western block. i think this is more or less what he's aiming her. he did the same in 2014 it's, i think it's the 2nd grade of a 4 grade alert system. so it's not the highest alert but, but on the alert. and he's reminding us in but us on the west that we're dealing with a country not like of gun stano, iraq, but a nuclear power. and that's what we do. ok. her territory shots in brussels, letting me 14 is already you similar language in recent days. do you see that from or where you are as a, as a threat to our well being in the immediate future? well, certainly, peter, what nato says is simply that no one knows what's in vladimir putin's mind. and so they have to be ready for everything. and this is what nato was created to do,

to alert every defense that it has possible among its 30 allies, just in case. and i think that they've been very reluctant to make predictions about about what vladimir putin will do, what they say they have to be ready for everything he can do. and now of course we've seen what he can do on the ground in ukraine flooding here. what's your take of what's going on inside bloody vladimir putins head at this point in time. it's still the guessing game that we've been involved in for days now. rotten though. now it's and think it's your remains a new forest like to 2 weeks ago or one week ago i became it became a reality on the very fast speed. so i would not surprised if arrested it will go on for a nuclear option. especially europe saying, shut down a c for taking out the russell banks is a nuclear option in terms of sanction, or just sending friends and friends, a reminder to europe on the whole lot. the just has

a nuclear option as well. so i will not surprised to what extent tony made you think that to the russian leaders, let me put it is, is now acutely isolated and has a growing sense of the, of his own isolation. he seems to be quietly related. and then there is to be appearances, but the question is, shift information on the lesson, how much information from all type of outside 40 of getting to this in the circle. so once again i'm, i'm, i'm having depression that it's all out war from the russian side. against the best against america, against the united states in the european union. and this collision is very fast. and there are some russian scientists was always very, very pretty. and this kind of response to, for that, like if the best and impose that sanctions on the rasa process. answering that are the same time time for extension, the worst of this. so the stakes are very high right now. and once again,

speaks to the nuclear options broke, this kind of response from the russian side, in my opinion. okay, let's say let's, let's have a close listen to what exactly the russian lead of that in a protein had to say what we've been talking about here. and then we'll go back to terry in brussels to get a further assessment on where the statements leaves us was really, really, it is not only our western countries taking unfriendly economic steps against our country do with the high mean the illegal sanctions that everyone knows about very well thought of her, but the top officials of leading nato countries, those are also making aggressive statements about our country, of the ceiling. therefore, i order the minister of defense and the chief of the general staff that only, but to put the deterrent forces of the russian military. because women to

a special mode of combat duty bdc. it's a very interesting phrase, a special mode of combat duty. just explain to us a little bit about what a mouth has already referred to as the technicalities behind this process. this 4 stage process that we have i don't think anyone knows exactly what vladimir putin means by this. because we are in uncharted territory. as you've said, but again, what nato has to do and what it's nuclear armed allies have to do is be ready for anything. now it's quite interesting that at this moment as we are here on the show, there has not been a special meeting called as far as i'm told. and i have checked with my sources to discuss specifically this nuclear talk from, from the kremlin. but at the same time, everything is always on high alert at nato, certainly in the, in recent weeks and days. and so they have this nuclear planning group that is

always kept abreast of, of all of the threats throughout the world. and looks at what nato would do as a nuclear armed alliance with this, as it's, you know, last stop option for defending the alliance. and everyone inside nato knows what it would do in case of, of a nuclear attack. ok, let's you don't know exactly what that would be. ok. let's move away from the nuclear option to both conventional warfare. it varies a sudden, so i've got to get from lots of different sources. good vladimir putin house, perhaps over reached himself in the operation so far, but they're not going is work as well as he might have expected. and that obviously has a no contract. what are you hearing were, were you all, are nato headquarters about we have had intel briefings on, on the side of from western intelligence officials. and the 1st night was quite dire in the 1st 24 hours. we were told that kids could fall within

a day that russia was controlling the air space had taken over key airports in airfield. but by the 2nd day that had completely changed and the ukrainians were fighting back better than anyone had expected. and, and you know, everyone was, was praising the bravery of, of the ukrainian not just armed forces, but civilians in fighting back. and so everyone thought maybe this won't be so easy, president putin will not be able to just walk in and take ukraine. and then you've seen this outflow of further weapons and contributions from, from allied states to ukraine, more lethal weapons. look at this, see change in the german position that makes a massive difference. not only will germany be sending weapons directly, it will allow other countries that are holding german made weapons to also ship them to ukraine. and this is something that germany had been holding up. so this, this crisis in ukraine has really shifted the minds of any reluctant allies to help ukraine. again, there will be no western boots on the ground,

but everything they can do to help ukraine fight for itself they're doing. for the same time. there is no signs of rasa bacon on this offensive, missouri some. armand randomly, grant, so we don't know how there are some real react. it's true that do this often if it's not that greek and it's not as successful as are probably russian for russian minister of defense or russian army during aust stockwell ser planning. but at the same time, there was no sounds of process going back or stopping the forces for the orphans if on the ground. this continued, there's more russian troops entering the green as far as i see from the russian sources and these, nor signs of any, any says fire as far as you know. ok, let's, let's, let's, he will melt as to say, is vladimir putin making headway in the way he would hope or not very much depends on where now it's the 1st banking day in moscow in russia today. because i think many russians start right now to feel that the country is at war.

and if they watch the state television and, and here the state news and so on. so on, they were just, i mean, not on the same information level as we are in the west. so it very much depends on how the, how the public in russia will react to, for example, not being able to go to the bank and just take the money out and to all the guys who are losing money and so on and so on. so the reaction of the sanctions that were that were imposed of russia are, is feeding them right now. your news favorite had a mouth to had to had some very interesting lines on this about the credibility of or of letting me put it in the eyes of ordinary russians. if you so will. i mean, do you have you carried lines like who believes in vladimir putting, putting support, crumbling oh yeah, support, crumbling. i think his is is a devastating line for somebody may put in for the estimation of his credibility a day. i can't predict how the, how the, how the,

how the public in russia is reacting to the news of war that they are really at war . the sons are and war and a dying in ukraine, which is supposedly a brothers and sisters saw them. they are fighting too, so i can't predict what is happening on, but i would say just to, just to see any kind of diplomacy are coined to are not talking to vladimir putin might be a mistake. we still have to find a way, even though we hate him, even though we are disgusted. and even though all these things i really feel about are you have to do with him. it might be just to wait until he is toppled. might prolonged us more for weeks and months to come and let him know when we talk about these kind of setbacks with that there's also been setbacks that to the very me put in has had at the, at the security council or the backing from the chinese that he might have anticipated would be much more positive. he's not getting that either. so that is

a, that is a diplomatic setback to as matter, if you look back for the 22 years of wedding or pushing being empowered in russia, his current political career began with the warning to tonight and it was a very both, all of our 3rd floor and thrusting russian forces are very, very brutal and suppressing this uprising into now then we had and this level of syrian operation of the russian to pitch is quite very brutal as well. it was very both, well, and now we have for us and thanks approaching kids from the, in the large numbers in there as difference. difference minister communicated to tomorrow today. sorry, in the morning for the citizens of key to leave, the city basically which could be assigned could be assigned of the ration, big scale minute, a military operation on, on the city of key. if so, i would not expect much room to negotiate for food and i don't see any and your own

for the plumber left. it's like it's a war. and terry, how is that? how is know to likely to, to respond to that kind of talk that we've now gone to these large numbers of tanks . moving pope perhaps towards care for the n, a really serious threat of an aggravation of the tensions and the conflict. it just to return to the issue of diplomacy. i asked secretary general sultan burg directly . would you still talk to vladimir putin after this invasion? and he did not say that he was revoking his invitation to talk to the russians any time i think that they're going to leave open the option, the only reasonable option for ending the conflict of dialogue. and you'll also note that the european union in the sanctions had placed directly on president putin and on foreign minister lab roth. it did not impose a trouble ban on them because they want them to be able to come and talk. they want people to be able to go and talk to them. nobody thinks that there's

a military solution to this crisis and that still that predominant line. but i think you have nato allies meeting now constantly in at 30 well 30 allies around the table talking about what more they can do to help ukraine. short, of course, have boots on the ground, but you see more equipment pouring in. you see more aid. you see humanitarian aid. poland has offered to be a hub for both nato and the european union because you can no longer fly supplies in. so poland has really stepped up and taken the lead in transporting this, this equipment, these additional supplies of all kinds across the border. because that's the only way people see the able to get supplementary materials to the ukrainians at this point. a go, yes, or maybe it should be edit and maybe you agree or not korean and bloody mia? i think vladimir putin is not interested to talk to the you or to nato or now house for him. is joe bud? the who is president?

he's, he's looking for summit that gives the whole world the impression he goes, i and i and equal to, to the american president. and so this could be the last thing that could be offered to him, not, no, not today or tomorrow, but maybe the next weeks or to come. what are, what are, what role of the americans playing at this point in time? terry is a little bit unclear to us from the, from the perspective of the european theater. i think i personally was watching yesterday after this renewed talk of nuclear options to see if if you would see president bite and come out and make it, make it some kind of address and, and he didn't. and so i think they did the, i mean, back in washington, they're very much watching every step and trying to calculate where they can best use their weight. i mean, remember this entire campaign, this build up, the americans surprised everyone with how transparent they were with their intelligence. not just to nato allies in closed session, but openly speaking from the white house podium about what they saw on the ground,

what they expected president putin might do. and when, and they got a lot of skepticism about that. in fact, they may not have had the dates exactly right, but what they warned about did come to pass. and when you talk to people at nato, behind the scenes, they are very appreciative. i mean, there was some skepticism about, about us intelligence and this strategy of sort of telling everything that you know, but in the end, allies have been appreciative that they didn't feel like the americans were going this alone. and i think that's why you don't see a lot of unilateral american actions right now. but surely the people with all the intelligence on the ground and they and they're watching this minute by minute, they're making a plan. we just don't know what it is yet interested in making a plan, but we don't know what is a slight shift. the focus from that come back to germany and talk about remarkable scenes yesterday in all over the last 24 hours in the, in the german parliament and on the street to the german capital mountain. it was

one of the most symbol laden days. i can think about for the last years, i mean, i attended this demonstration between the brom brigade and, and because of the victory it was huge. it was more than $100000.00 people, and they paroled, it paraded up to which the, the sculptured army memorial in the, in the middle, in the heart of berlin's lawyer. the red, huge complex with 2 tanks that, that, that arrived in berlin on, on may 8th, on may 7th, i don't know. and, and, and the you'd read army soldier standing above that waving ukrainian flax. and this is, this was e sign of simple internet with the bundles talk session. when we things happen that were unthinkable before. i mean the swift sanctions. the are a 100000000000 euros spending for defense and,

and promising for spending like that more than 2 percent of the ttp in future for defense. and i forgot the and, and the weapons weapon delivery, which was a, to boot in german politics for the last century. ok, let's just listen to i mean the german liter. all i shall say we're referring to here has in some quarters have been accused of not appearing to be fully engaged in facing up to the challenge posed by vladimir putin. now, surely, given what melt has been saying, and what we're about to hear that can no longer quite apply. let's listen to all of schultz and his own words. 14 but analysis, imperial shootin wants to create a russian empire in all he wants to reconfigure europe according to his own ideas. and he does not hesitate to use military violence in there. what we see this today in ukraine. so we must ask ourselves what capabilities putin's russia has. and what capabilities do we need to meet this threat to day and in the future?

later on that? so you mustn't douglas mia, and we must invest more in the security of our country to defend our freedom and democracy to set that up for new from now on year for year. more than 2 percent of our g d. p will be invested in defense for most of the postwar period, germany has essentially been her pacifist country. there's been a very strong streak of, of pacifism, in german politics that has now, apparently all changed virtually overnight. yes, and it's done by a coalition of social democrats and green party are, which are one of the most pacifists oriented thought of parties in germany. ah, so it might be the end of german passive is, i'm not quite sure about that, because pacifism means that you are unwilling to fight are germany doesn't fight.

so we are still the spectators and seeing this war, and i try to influence it with a swift decision and things like that. but the but it would germans be willing to fight for that. i have many doubts about terry agirri, germany and germans have, however, there has been a revolution in how they perceive their own armed forces. this is a very remarkable event. and what does it mean now for germany and europe in the ukraine crisis in the ukraine conflict yesterday when that speech was on, i could do nothing but just sit and listen and wait for the nuggets to drop about how that would affect it. nato, germany and nato. you know what, what you call a pacifist country is often referred to as a free rider here at here in brussels, at nato. because germany, of course, benefits from the security of the alliance. but many people see it, see it as not having contributed everything it could. and that did all change with this speech. i spoke with someone working in,

in the defense establishment in berlin, who said that, you know, up until now without this procurement decision announced yesterday, we would be able to but to know that we could buy sort of one quarter of an airplane. we didn't know if we would get the funding after that to buy the rest of the plane. i mean, these things that don't sound that important perhaps to the public ears are really important for german defense. i mean the spending above 2 percent of g d, p, as nato has requested of all allies. that's massive. that of course has been something germany was absolutely lambasted for during the trump administration, but also in softer ways by other administrations. this is truly a sea change in germany's role in nato, and i think it's going to be welcomed very much by everyone there at nato headquarters, including the germans themselves, were no longer going to be under the spotlight for financial reasons, for having been for the municipal for do you have to sort of of this dramatic development? it's getting colder atoning of fatality. here in germany? well, the world's dialogue was the amount of german 4 in politics for many weeks before

the russian invasion. it was like repeatedly mentioned in the stock sessions log dialog dialog with ross. and now with you what 7 i'm on the grounds and all the right. missouri announced yesterday in the german for lemons, a long term measures financing and military spending and delivering reference to the grand. but when you look on the ground floor typing right now and key for the key. and so what you're saying about 10 is necessarily going to be very impressed by this development of this point to time. once again, processes itself to a t r. it was with the since 2014. and since then, my vanity, but it's, and then you're creating the whole rhetoric of the russian government hold authority called the russian state made it was a war rhetoric for many years right now. so it's not nothing to impress them. and once again, they have very clear military goal,

something on concert in key of especially. and then we see right now they're going to achieve their goals. what do you think terry? your you, your so you, your, i can see you are, i'm busy once about that statement. yeah. to, so lead on exactly what you know, what you're, what you're thinking there. no, i think i think it's true. this isn't going to affect anything perhaps. so immediately on the ground, although certainly it will be welcomed that now germany will both directly send weapons to help you crane and allow other countries to do so. i mean, that can make an immediate difference. and it doesn't speak to whether ukraine has a possibility to actually win this militarily. but, you know, president putin had quite a bit of success in germany in dividing public opinion about about what the country should do. i mean, that's not even get into your heart schroeder's role there, but you know, there, there were, there is a division of opinion, but what

a love schultz did yesterday was say, as a country we are devoting ourselves to nato. we are devoting a lot more money to nato by far the largest economy in europe. if germany spends 2 percent of its g d, p on defense on its own military, that is a massive increase in capabilities available to nato. once again, it's just another example of how if potent wanted a weaker nato, if put, put, wanted a nato that pulled away from his borders. and remember that germany is there, leading an enhanced forward presence in lithuania, he has achieved now with even more money behind it. a much stronger nato were running out to sonya who told my days nearly most of the same time. ukraine is not the member of the nato saw that putting money to the nature is not especially a certain degree. so kind made or the money in reference. but it will not serve the credit and trust me. yes, but, but, but, but the general reaction to this image was demonstrated yesterday in the buddhist talk. i mean, make it almost impossible to spread this unity between the european union

and in between nato, because germany was always considered to be a weak link. i mean putin has a special linked germany. he was not educated but he worked and traced neza k g b officer and so on. he speaks german, so you always always try to pull away germany from the rest of europe and it's not as germany is the hungary, for example, as well. orland was a close, i would say almost friend of putin and he was joining the swift sanction as well. okay, i'm afraid that's what we're going to have to leave it. thank you very, very, very much for sharing your thoughts with me. i hope we've given our viewers plenty of food for thought about the latest developments in the crisis in ukraine. so thanks so much for joining us for now. bye bye. and just a with

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people and trucks injured when trying to flee the city center more and more refugees are being turned away at the border families playing on the taxi. the reason for these correct only with people lean extreme around a rough getting 200 people with around the world. more than 300000000 people are seeking refuge. yes. the why? because no one should have to flee. make up your own mind. double you made for mine's

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with this is d w new is coming to you live from berlin. rockets, rain down on residence in car key ukraine. second city is bombarded as russia adopt siege tactics. authority say almost a dozen residents have been killed and hundreds injured. also coming on a neighborly welcome people in eastern poland organized to help clean ukrainians and give them a ride, a hot meal and a place to stay.