exactly, like said guns, and the poison spread their own with. mm hm. 3 new life the great documentary series, iraq destruction of the nation starts march 4th on d, w. o rushes, invasion of ukraine is entering a new phase. it's being described as phase b and look set to be even more brutal than what went before the central russian target still appears to be the capture of the ukrainian capital kiev, but ukrainian forces, opposing up, a bitter fight that president followed me as a lensky says, he expects further strikes on residential and government. air is designed to lead to mass panic, more civilian casualties, and the destruction of infrastructure. so on to the point we ask ukraine, fighting for survival has rushes dirty war only just begun

with . well, thanks very much for joining us here on the show where my guests are julia free. durish who is with the global public policy institute, here in berlin, gustav gressick from the european council on foreign relations, and sag him, it from another billing based organization called the december and n g o promoting human rights in russia and eastern europe. thank you very, very much all 3 of here for being here with me today. and i'd like to begin with you, you live is a lot to talk about. so let's do it a not till until very real recently, you actually lived in key f. can you for us evoke the moved in the city at this point in time? well, at this point in time, i can't really say from

a personal experience because i left about 3 weeks ago. so before this all started, before i would say the mood was very tense already, but people kind of trying to go on with their lives. and i think now with people spending night after night and i must come interest in them or him, the key of metro station looking for shelter. i think the mood has, has deteriorated quite a lot. still the ukrainians that i'm in touch with are remarkably resilient and trying to keep their head type. there is a sense that the initial determination and now really a much greater fear and trepidation among people. i wouldn't necessarily say that i think it's normal to be afraid to when your city is being bombed, i think that doesn't mean that there's less determination necessarily. ok, circa murphy vivid impressions there from julia on the current mood in the current in city care. if you come from you, you were born in moscow. tell us about the moved in moscow at the moment. russia is

obviously an aggressor and there are no bomb been russian cities in the moment, but the panic is coming to russia to. and so in the last days i had phone calls with journalists and just sort of friends and they don't know what to do. and some people are like buying tickets for any directions to do by to, to billy. see to central, easier just to escape because they don't know what the com or the measures can come to them. and especially how journalists can be sanctioned if they call war as a war. and if they are struggling give a sense of sheep. so there is situation in the society, even like among those loyal russians is changing. and we can see the situation to 3 weeks, probably completely different. what we heard like a couple of those. and to what extent of people in russia been blindfolded by vladimir putin or, or have say, been,

has gone into this situation that they find themselves with their eyes wide open as it pertains war? or is it the russian peoples war? yeah, firstly, like russian society split and there are a lot of democrats and critical russians who said already 10 years ago with, after the 1st mass protest, putin, regime is a legal election frauds, mass human rights violations and repression. again, still to be to people against a position leaders and so on and so forth. but to what we saw 2014. and what we see now is, of course, in other extent, and it is the 1st service that people are arriving russia now in the next days. even like, loyal people or will have to think what's going on in, do they really need this war? do they really need this regime? what will happen then? yeah, this is

a good question because i mean the situation is changing from day to day and it's hard to predict now, but their prices will or will rise and the inflation will rise. and i can imagine that the situation, economic and social situation can look bit the same. what we have in the 90s, in this wild ninety's, how put in call them. and he's propaganda in the last 20 years. ok. that's bringing, bringing ghost of crystal from the european council on foreign relations, where you spend a lot of time, i imagine thinking about peace almost as an abstract quantity. you are however, a military man. he served in austria's army for 5 years. i believe. what, what are your impressions of what's going on at the moment as a military, somebody with the military background? well, the russian army switching gear, they trying to achieve a quick, quick 3. they were made to believe that this would be a flower campaign. other basically would be welcomed by the population. they took few ammunition with them. they were not organized in their usual combat teams. they

just rushed in as fast as i can. and them at stiff resistance. and i was surprised that actually they would meet war. now they're regrouping very organizing. they're bringing a lot of ammunition to supply a brutal, especially around the cities, to use tillery to use all the fire power that there is to break the resistance of the defenders and to break the will of the population to defend, to, to support the defending effort. we also have a bad situation. the south russia tries to, again, to full told on the other side of the river. we will see how this, how this unfold. nevertheless, the war has, has exposed a lot of weaknesses in the russian on forces, especially in the leadership. a lot of tactical mistakes, a lot of bad behavior in terms of how they operate as a professional military. and he has confirmed everybody who's saying that never on

the estimate the ukrainians have learned a lot since 2014. that is a common proven army. and they are very much determined to fight for their survival of the country. ok, since the annexation of crimea in 2014, it's already been mentioned. nato has been beefing up its capacities on the eastern flank. and now the onslaught on ukraine has led to a new era in the west defense strategy. we have this short report. in recent years, nato had already reorganized combat units in the eastern member countries and scandinavia joint maneuvers in the region were also stepped up. in recent weeks, the number of troops has been further boosted and ukraine, which is not a nato member, is getting weapons from various countries. a new development is that for the 1st time in its history, the european union has approved a monetary fund to provide military support to ukraine. to know that these have

a 1000000 viewed as will be devoted to provide defensive arms. but i calibrate arms. anti thanks, all kind of agreement in order to re failed degradation. germany has also made a dramatic about face in its strategy, releasing arms shipments to a war zone. in addition, the bonus fare, germany's armed forces is to be better equipped over the next few years, with $100000000000.00 euros in additional funding. furthermore, the 2 percent target for defense spending, which the u. s. has long demanded in bain is to be implemented this year? is a new arms race blooming is a do i'm sure i assuming already, i mean a saga you live here in berlin and in the last few days we've had this decision by germany, by the you to send weapons to ukraine. how important is that? i think it's important. pardon?

i think it's very important too because ukraine is a poor country and it needs support from all the sites. also with their defensive weapon and a futon declared the war against ukraine. but actually he also declared the 2nd cold war against their so called western world. and he, as we know from the last 20 years, he will not stop in ukraine. this is not the 1st war and to europe and the world has to do everything in order that it is the like, the last we will not stop in ukraine. what will then happen next? i mean, there are several and they were countries, former soviet republics. and i can do like focus in the moment, but we saw a war in georgia to solve 8 in the ninety's. there was war insurance, nice trio. and i'm, i mean there are a lot of us social frozen conflicts,

and we have bella ruse the situation with her dictator lucas shenker there. and it's also the situation has to be sold somehow. and we don't know if it will be peacefully or not. so if you share that impression, that this is the 1st domino falling and there will be many other dominoes after that i opposite of these contacts and i want to play even a more to me a picture. we see now a total war on least on the screenings, and the game is the destruction of the ukrainian nation as a political entity, as a social, historical entity. it will come with enormous repression because as we seen with anom civilians getting in front of tanks, you will not make the ukrainians to accept whatever put before them without brutal force. and that that requires the most repressive tactics we have seen in the 20th century. so far, and you will have, you will, you're not doing this to the d. n,

our eleanor to isolate it or to, to small territories. you're doing this to a huge country, the largest country in europe, and almost 40000000 people. this will involve a large amount of security personal from russia, if it happens, who will then be radicalized, brutalized involved systematically in war crimes. they will depend on protein because otherwise they will face colton cheese, and they will transport their methods of repression to the russian. people and that they will make us responsible because this is putin's mindset for every body resisting to him. and his plans is a stooge of the ca. he will make us responsible for it and he will use a demeanor he has employed so far, which is violence repression and the threat of war to make us back off. okay, very uncomfortable, cold war, very strong and very distressing. military logic cooler. when you listen to that kind of logic, do you envisage that are key f becoming a city that is,

or whether is street, why street fighting house to house fighting and her a very high price in human suffering? well, i mean, i think this depends on a lot of factors that we can't accurately predict just now. i think we will, we will have to wait and see a little bit how this goes on. but and i would, i don't think that the ukrainians would surrender easily. so that is why there is a scenario that i think is that can potentially happen. and that might even be likely, which of course, we'll have a tremendous human cost, but i don't see a ukrainian surrendering their capital any time soon. her very important figure, obviously in this unfolding tra, tragedy is so ukrainian president or will follow to be so lensky. he has been talking about what he and his country men and country women are fighting for. this is what he said. we are fighting for our rights for freedom

and wife. and now we are fighting for survival. and this is our main motivation. but we are also fighting to be equal members of europe. fighting to be equal members of european should ukraine get trust truck, you membership on a moral level, i would say, or an intuitive level. i would say yes, it would only be fair on, on a practical level, to be honest, i doubt this makes much difference at this point in time, because we know that even though the u has shown unprecedented speed in the last couple of days in making its foreign policy decisions and lodgement has been an issue for many, many years, decades even. and so i doubt they will come around this quickly and even if they do a membership and accession is a lengthy process that will take some time. and so that's why i'm not sure this

would weigh in any way on, on the way the war is going necessarily being talked about a lot here in germany and under lot in brussels. is it, is it or is it moves that could prove helpful in a middle or long term perspective definitely bought in the moment i cannot see any chance is how the country been bombed and to lay cur. the aggression of put in joining the european union as are members stage bars off to the war. after this blog bath, we need to secure people, at least, and this means you still are used to conduct or even, i mean we are, we are facing also negotiations and we know the russian demands are even in the process of that. and i don't get me wrong, i'm not mr. written for. i'm not telling anybody what to concede and will to give up. but even if, if the ukrainians are forced to give up something,

it's better to give up a piece of paper than to give up a piece of your country. so even even if it does not materialize for whatever reason, we have built up a stock of arguments that mr. zalinski can use in negotiations with the russian counterparts. it took to get peace and to preserve sovereignty of his country to preserve ukraine by the ukrainians. decide what government to have and not the colonial power. you mentioned president zalinski there. well, what would your estimation be of his role that he has played this jewel role national leader and military lead with one of the same time he's playing probably the role of his life. now he, his prime goal is to mobilize international society to mobilize the entire country for, for them to come much of the fate of ukraine. now law is in the end of ordinary citizens and especially of.