unions are forced to give up something. it's better to give up a piece of paper than to give up a piece of your country. so even even if it does not materialize for whatever reason. we have built up a stock of arguments that mr. zalinski can use in negotiations with the russian counterparts. it took to get peace and to preserve sovereignty of his country to preserve ukraine by the ukrainians. decide what government to have and not the colonial power. you mentioned, presidents zalinski there. what would your estimation be of his role that he has played this jewel role is a national leader and military lead with one of the same time he's playing probably the role of his life. now he, his prime goal is to mobilize international society to mobilize the entire country for, for their, for to come much of the fate of ukraine. now law is in the end of ordinary citizens . and especially of course, the uniform that armed ones are, but he's doing in 1900 figure. he's pulling at over 90 percent. and i think he does

a very good job that oh, what would you say sorry about his before once? yeah, well he, he, he, he really has become, he's got it, he's got any fact i sort of are almost a fun club in the west in that, out on the, in the west. but then your grand and south to, i mean this, he is like wearing presley if and what i hear also from my friends, from hearty if and keith. i say that sir, it's like a new president. they became, or like a week ago and there are really, and she is like her motivating the whole nation to fight and not to surrender. okay, well, hundreds of thousands of people have taken to the streets in several european cities and countries in recent days to demonstrate against the onslaught ordered by vladimir putin and in brush or itself. there have also been protest. we have the short report demonstrating in russia against hooton's policies and his war takes a lot of courage. the security forces are brutal against the demonstrators. nevertheless,

people like here in saint petersburg and in many other cities are taking to the streets. when the warn ukraine is not our war, it's not our warner, it's the war of our leadership. but not our war. starting this war was a very bad decision for our people, because many of them have relatives, friends, husbands, and they will die for nothing. with it similar in moscow where this woman says, i feel sorry for those who suffer aren't here. who are there from each side. the economy will recover, but people can't be brought back. for years, critical voices in russia have been systematically suppressed opposition members imprisoned. the media brought into line, we'll resistance against potent grow. mm. so, okay,

what do you say will resistance against vladimir putin grow and how dangerous is it to be opposed of letting me put in, in russia? it's quite dangerous if the war and the situation we have right now can continue for weeks and months. put in, cannot afford this war forever. and the situation is already changing. and he cannot be impressed by the st protest because the steel in the law not like in a large scale box we see already is please of the elite. and the 1st voice is already quite loud. that only guards cannot afford this war as well. dairy passed her, who is like a loyal oligarch said that i don't want to pay for this. why should i pay team cough? and friedman, i also like one of the biggest, all you are saying like we don't want this war. and i can imagine that even the elite can pressure who teen or later and can make him to change his

mind. really your impression, ah, well, i mean, we've seen videos coming out of, of russia, of children being detained after protest yesterday with the footage of as the viper of the lending grad see, who was arrested for protesting against the war that was allegedly led under the under the much of the notification of ukraine. so we really see that the russian leadership is acting very ruthlessly. i don't share that gays optimism necessarily . i'm very sorry to say because i, i think i put in the group on power is very strong and it will only get a, i mean, he will only hold on tighter now. and i do think that we would have to see, and we would have to see much more sort of branch, larger dynamic against the war for it to, to really have an impact on the rest of leadership. hooton's group on power is very strong. we hear that and so there are other sources of quarters who would say that

is very frustrated at this point in time because things haven't gone his way at all . oh, he is spots. he's switching gear now. they try with brute force what they haven't achieved with lightning rod invasion. i fear that ukraine, at least has to be stand this wave of attack, if not even then other before putting we'll try something else. i also share the pessimism that i don't think change will come from within because to police state that is in action now is very much entrenched. but there is a chance if, if the casualties are too high. and if the damage for russia is being a great power, and this is what this was about, he wants to establish russia as a great power the 21st century. if the deterioration through sanctions and through economic collapse is too harsh that this, this girl comes out of reach, then i think you might reconsider. we should remember stalling. he, he was not somebody who had

a high regard for human life and he gave up on the finland of the 40 days because it was too much damage for the soviet union as a great power to be embarrassed by not being able to conquer finland quickly, and, and the same applies to ukraine. now, however, of course, we are in the 21st century and, and warfare is a bit different than the terrain is different. so so we shouldn't sort of draw direct pylons, but this gives us roughly on idea of where things have to go. so the what's, what's your take on what the, what let me put in moody's at this point in time. we have spent a lot of time sort of wondering about what's going on inside his head. but it's, it is important to try and work work out where he might be leading the situation where he might be driving the situation. i think no one else was in the head of 14, like since months at least or even years. and i can imagine that he has different scenario and he, he doesn't plan to have this for,

for like several weeks. and i think there are talks every day with his security council and he's like, loyal c o v key people and they're discussing what to do. and also they're taking a look at the economical situation. all the sanctions which are very painful for, for russia and for putin. so i think we can see some changes in 2 or 3 weeks. and you'll hear what you want. one thing that fascinates me is a distance and something that you will know much, much more about his war. what has happened to the purported friendship between you cray, dns and russians? what is the situation there now? and will future of these 2 countries got his neighbors to each other? well, i think that's a question that well, the answer to this, we will only see in the, in the, in the long run. i don't,

i don't think that ukrainians will forgive russia. russians very easily for this. at the same time, i do think that there is an understanding within the population that this is the government's doing and not necessarily the people doing. and you have to understand that for 8 years, people have already, i mean there were lots of family ties even know that already had to, with standard of the annexation of crimea, the intervention of russia and that on boss. so i think people, i used to a certain degree to apply some pragmatism in these personal relationships as well, and sort of put certain issues aside. and not sure if they can keep this up though . now that russia has fallen invaded ukraine. and so i think that this will be ones that won't heal for many decades. go. so you've given a lot of thought to strategy where the, where this is the, the, what do you think is going to happen in the next week or so now i feel we see a new, a much more brutal phase of this wall is also has turns into

a wall logistics for both sides. we know much about the russian side, but also ukraine is desperately needing re supply dis, russian tanks didn't blow them so. so our discourse, i mean nation are there the ukraine, an air force is on the great struggle. they have put up an enormous prey fight, so fall under half exceeded all expectations, or of course they are running to the end of their resources. are they desperately need help or from the west? the desperately need our help. now, as i said before, the consequences of ukraine falling or will be, will be reasonable and will be tough for all of europe. so it's our, it's our own self interest to make them we stand and stop this imperialism as early as possible. and without our hope that they will survive a for another week, and then we'll see what while he's now negotiated and brother put in, will agree to, to, to one of the many ideas for compromise that there are but,

but i fear that her dad, he has not yet seen enough casualties to, to allow for his war aims or to change. so, okay, a final word from you, perhaps on giving us some sort of comforts at the time to come. what, where can you, where can you see this situation leading that isn't leading towards violence and atrocity, a short answer place? it's hard question and i hope it's leading in the long term perspective to the end of the soviet regime of booting and lucas. and we also need to talk now to the democratic and to the democrats in the country and russian bill or was and of course abroad. certainly. okay, thank you very much. all 3 of you for being here. we have to leave you there for now. bye bye. and just with,

ah,

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ah, this is d w y from bar lane that russia sees is its 1st major ukrainian city man of cason confirms that the government headquarters with the port city is in the hands of invading troops despite the last president vladimir landscape urges ukrainians to persevere and says russia will pay for what he gets done. also on the program, more than a 1000000 civilians have now fled ukraine of the you and he's warning. this is just the beginning. we'll bring the latest from the florida with romania where people are trying to escape the fighting.