and delivered to you credit on flowing d, w. poland. they want to know what makes the gym and he just in the gym. loved via banning thing with a way from now. but i'm not even have to watch my own car and everyone with later holes and everything today. just getting you ready to meet the german and join me right? just do it on d. w with as proteins more on ukraine continues, there is no end to the bombing, nor the blood shed as civilian casualties. mount europeans look on in frustration at the western inability to help the fighting nato is doing all it can to avoid being drawn in the you members are divided over how far to go with weapons deliveries and sanctions. today, we ask, as nato weighs, its options. who can help you? crane with

. hello, and welcome to the point. it's a pleasure to greet our guests. professor gwendolen sasa is political scientist with the center for east european and international studies here in berlin. marcus kime is the security and nato expert with the berlin based think tank s w, p, and fortune. assuming minsky is a colleague working on d, w cohen desk. i'd like to start out with an assessment of where all of you think things stand at the moment ukrainians say that time is running out that cities like g of have saw in car eve and maria pull cannot hold out inevitably indefinitely. and at the same time, some think tanks are reporting that the russian offensive has stalled some even say

failed. and that so russian soldiers supplies are running out. so gwendolen, if i may start with you a kremlin friendly newspaper, actually this week published and then very quickly deleted a report that 10000 soldiers russian soldiers have died. we're also hearing the generals has been killed. what do we know about russian losses and their effect on protein strategy? we don't know the exact numbers of those losses. that was indeed remarkable that this figure was published and then quickly taken down again, there might be even more casualties. so we simply do not know, but of course that is a very sensitive issue. and the koreans also report about high numbers of casualties on the russian side. and that means that's a very demoralizing bit of news to convey to your audiences at home. so the issue is how long can you conceal that? and it's beginning to show that it cannot be concealed. and the more this kind of

news travels, the more likely it is that the mood and russia could also change kremlin watching is always a bit like reading tea leaves none the less we are also hearing that heads are beginning to roll within the security service. the f b, what do you know about that? and what would that indicate to you about where the kremlin might head? i wouldn't over interpret this at the moment. so i think it's very clear that lady mem, 14, takes the decisions and he does so closely in close cooperation with the defense ministry and the, the army. but he already several times and public really showed that he tells the security council and the security, the seal the key as they're called in russian what to do and that they follow his orders. it is possible that he is rearranging positions or individuals because people are, are beginning to wonder if this can be one. but i wouldn't doubt that he still

completely controls what's happening. and my guess, what would you say? can russia still when this war i mentioned that some us based think tanks actually have said so far the russians have failed to achieve their goal. so. so the question to you, how long you think the russian forces can hold out? and then of course, also the cranium. i think both perspectives are correct. the 1st perspective address is the state you made. you mentioned that was, has been a, has been accomplished all that has occurred after 4 weeks of fighting that the front line are quite, quite, even nothing is moving back and back and forth again. so we have an approach, the point of no return for the for, for the russian forces. however, the point is, is putting ready to escalate the war. and that's the key question. if it is very,

to go all in, that would mean a major escalate and we have seen all we have heard and read about certain weapon systems would have been used so far. no, to meant the use of weapons of mass destruction. i'm thinking of biological but more importantly, chemical weapon systems. and so i wouldn't rule out some major escalation with unforeseeable consequences for the ukraine, for russia and political terms and for the, for the western community as well. let's come back to that point a little bit later . let me ask you this. as i said, many of the weapons that are being delivered to ukraine are flowing via poland. poland, in fact, has also indicated that it thinks more are needed. what's your sense of whether the weapons deliveries or making a difference for the ukranian? i guess, of course they do the difference. nobody has expected that the crane an army will be able to fight backs for such

a long time. and even the ukrainian soldiers decreased ukrainian army, they're posting those videos saying thank you for those for those weapons. they are singing british anthem, a shooting some, some british from using some british british weapons. i believe it has made a great change that the west, the sporting ukrainian arm you with this weapons and the west had supported the ukrainian army before as well, because it's not for 4 or 5 weeks now that this weapons are being transferred to ukraine has been a, it had been also also before and indeed poland has become the south and poland has become a big harp for this if what is transports and poland has now a very dangerous and very important role in this, in this crisis. because indeed, there is, we don't notice officially, this is classified, but it is very probable that a lot of

a lot of equipment is going to transfer baldwin. and in fact, that said to be a one probable reason why there has been several russian attacks on targets on the outskirts of the beef, which is very close to the polish border. how worried are people in poland? they are worried very much there were my friends or my family members when all this started calling me and asking what, what, what do you think? how, in how big danger is fallen now? shall we be prepared for an for an attack. people in poland are really skirt and the polish government. this is highly alerted. well, what we have seen are russian, mrs. striking 10 miles from the natal border. and or, i guess russia is sir, very cautious trying not to hit the natal territory because that would, that would have for real tragic consequences. but you know,

it may happen that there is some mistake or some, some failure and it comes to an attack. the natal territory, we have to be aware of that. speaking of the weapons deliveries, certainly ukraine's president feels more is needed. let's listen to an excerpt from the latest in his unflagging appeal to the world community. miss phone. so we did a good laska, please do not sponsor the weapons of war of this country of russia. i see roll, no, no euros for the occupiers. zachary close all your ports to them. the nipples that don't send them your goods viewed move, deny them, energy resources, the push for russia to leave ukraine level grade, i believe. and i know that piece is possible, but you can take action to achieve leave. indeed, the sheldon will break thee her. gwendolyn, europe has already imposed unprecedented sanctions on russia. it is also

a sent a record number of weapons, as we mentioned, to poland in the face of these as, as all i shall said to day unbearable images that we are seeing from ukraine. you think that citizens and leaders in europe are prepared to do more, they will have to do more. and if we think where, where they come from and what, what has been happening in the last few weeks. there is a surprising change in thinking and also in citizen support for different kinds of measures. and indeed these sanctions are unprecedented. the problem with them is that their effects will not happen right now. and so effect on the actual war on the ground is limited. and so the effects are more on russia as a political economic system in the medium term. and yes, the training president asked for more is always asked for more for more military assistance. you have also doubled the amount of money it will get for military

assistance. so this is also new for you to do that like that. and it is also considering, or the some you member states are considering an embargo on oil and gas imports. but that is the tricky issue. and there's no consensus. and of course, the consensus inside you and inside nature is really important because that's what the kremlin had banked on that nature. and the you would not be united. in fact, as the shorts once again ruled out such an embargo. but as we know, germany has turned around on other positions as well. marcus, let's focus on nato a bit because in fact, it is holding an extraordinary summit. joe biden, coming to europe to take part in that. what are you expecting the alliance to do for ukraine? a couple of things. first of all, it will emphasize again that it is not an interest. it's not interested in

escalating the conflict to full blown war with russia, but it's been made quite clear over the last couple of weeks when good discussion came up about the no fly zone. and for, for good reasons, need to retake with this idea because that would have involved or wouldn't mito rodella stations on russian soil on why the russian soil that would really escalate . however, i think it will be clear that nato countries will continue to maybe increase weapons deliveries to ukraine. that then key method will be that the central eastern european, lots of natal, poland, the baltic save states, book area. romania can rely on rush or rely on it will story. and then maybe the overall team as it will be we will stand together as the worst because maybe this is one of the most stunning developments over the last couple of weeks that

the europe together with united states as european union is natal release, and a coherent quite consistent message to roger and has followed this message and to be honest, i wouldn't have expected this 6 weeks ago. another thing many people wouldn't have expected a voice. it was a rather extraordinary trip that was taken by the prime ministers of poland. your country as well as the czech republic and slovenia. they travelled by train to key if in the midst of the fighting to meet personally with president zalinski and prime minister, shamir, poland has proposed that the polish government sent soviet made mig 29 fighter planes to ukraine, and that nato sent what it calls a peace mission to ukraine. nato however, has rebuffed both of those ideas, saying they could drag the alliance directly into a conflict with nuclear armed russia. would you say narrows right on this

what of course nato has to be very, very coaches are doing everything. it's possible to help ukraine, but not crossing the line, which would lead us to some serious confrontation between nato and russia. this a polish idea for sending commit to jet fighters. there must have been some problem in the communication, i believe. and it was a moment where the west to didn't really speak united and he didn't act united. the west has been playing quite united that the last weeks. this was 11 situation where we had something else coming from or so then we had somebody else coming from washington. so i believe this idea wasn't really, wasn't really consulted enough with, with other other other leaders. or if the polish prime minister, mister kaczynski not to polish, the deputy prime minister,

he proposed to sit nato piece mission in the, in the ukraine. but we also hear no big interests from nato countries doing it because it will also mean it's like with, with no fly zone in the ukraine. that some flooring natal soldiers would have to be in the ukraine. and russia would have to accept that if we don't want a fight between the 2 and russian soldiers, however, this is diplomacy, this is the world politics. maybe there is some aim in proposing this kind of things to be discussed. and we'll see what's, what's at the end, what thing, but some of the criticism about the proposal for the, for the piece mission was that it was perhaps, or rather populist kind of symbolic gestures. do you think the case m. uh no, not really. it was a, it was very,

very important signal for the ukraine that those 3 prime ministers went there or it was a dangerous mission. and i think it symbolically it did help ukraine. it didn't help you correctly didn't change the situation. the war is going on. the ukraine is in a very dire situation to russia still attacking however for, for the politics, for the kind of a p, r of this politics. which is also very of this war, which is also very important. it was an important and a very brave or decision to, to go there in the middle of the war and to stand by. does elaine skin saying we will? we are with you. we don't forget about you. we are, we are here. let me ask both gwendolen and marcus just briefly to comment on some of these proposals for an outsider who is not as security expert. it can look a bit like splitting hairs when you say this kind of equipment, this kind of weapons. ok. but here we draw the line. does it make sense to say make

29th, not ok, or very sophisticated anti aircraft technology, too risky? why is that? that's a very difficult line. and, and, and one can really sense, i think, how much nato is trying to avoid to, to, to really become a direct party to this, to this war. and i think the line, however, has been consistent from nato so far. and it is really delivering air defense capabilities and i thought is also being stepped off. i'm still as we, as we speak. so now systems being delivered that are also capable of having a more long range effect. so that is i think where the consensus is but exactly on the fighter jets that wasn't really good communication within nato and that's where the line has been drawn and personally, i think lightly. so i just wanted to add on this visit. i also think it was a highly symbolically important visit, but the idea of the natal piece mission that cannot fly,

obviously in parts of, of leg his argument is about and nature slowed in ukraine. so 1st of all, a peace mission of any kind. so un mission would have to come on the basis of any agreement of a treaty, but then it's highly impossible, it's impossible, highly unlikely on possible that nato could quite fulfill this one can maybe think of it as launching an idea that there will have to be international involvement in, if there is, and when there is peace and with some sort of a piece of sci fi, at least that, that has to be safeguarded. but that cannot be in a, to, in this context. marcus is their equipment, weapon systems that could be sent that would be helpful to ukraine, that you wouldn't view as likely to provoke escalation on the part of russia. i think everything is helpful currently because the key method of all was to governments. since that said, the cemetery has been, we have to impose costs on, let me put in,

if he escalates tensions in ukraine. if he takes ukraine. and this has been the consistent message. and actually, a line between defensive and offensive weapon system has already been blood. that has been the key method or the key counter argument of many western governments until the war broke broke out. but now we have approach the point where if we stick with the our goal to impose costs on low to put into influences cost benefit calculations. i think we have to go to go all in and increase it costs me also to deliver events weaponry to ukraine. meanwhile, we are seeing what amounts to a division of labor between the you and ukraine. well, you member states and assent weapons and money. nato's been taking action to strengthen its eastern flank, as we've heard, and also to put on a show of strength. further afield. for example, the aircraft carrier,

u. s. s. truman has generally and applied it to the pacific ocean and the waters in the middle east. that is now in the northern ione and see it's fighter jets and radar plains are patrolling nato's eastern borders and looking eastward to ukraine. so let me ask you, why sure. would you expect that to influence the russian president? and if so, in what direction? of course, it has an influence often on vladimir, put in when nato is sir showing strength. nato. it's showing it's acting. united nato is moving some additional troops to the eastern flank, to, to poland, to the baltic states, to return to romania. m. this is something that for letting me put in really didn't want to happen. so this is something what he really achieved and it's the opposite of his, of his goals. this is, this is really remarkable or,

but i believe also the sir. countries on the eastern flank like poland or especially the smaller countries like lithuania is tonia. they are really willing to get this attention from, from natal. they want me to, to, to, to be there. they want need to send the signals, even if it's a verbal signal saying we want allow an inch of, of our natal territory to be attacked by a, by russia. or, i guess, especially for the smaller countries it's, it's crucial to have this, this, this service, even verbal securities are because the situation is, is unthinkable. we didn't expect this to happen just a couple of weeks ago. what's happening now. marcus, as nader, was recently conducting a major exercise in the baltic region and at at c, russian ships apparently went out of their way to avoid the nato vessels. at least

some german media were reporting that return to port rather than have any kind of indirect encounter with nato. can you confirm that? and would you say that that indicates that russia, in fact, is not looking to escalate, but would rather avoid a direct transportation? yeah, absolutely, and this is exactly in line with all historical experiences during the cold war at despite the rhetorical aspirations or rhetorical escalation, to put it this way, the soviet leadership and now the rock and able to person, always very keen on avoiding direct military confrontation, a consultation of political and military clients in the world, in a different reason. ok, but to avoid a confrontation, it's always been an overarching goal and therefore i'm not really surprised that

brother is not moving fully withdrawn, but it's aware of the situation to put it this way. in the fight against russia, ukraine has now established an international legion and urged foreigners to fight with its forces. d, w. spaghetti shook, went to the polish border and met fighters there who are ready to deploy to the wars out. this is anatoly from finland. it's not his real name. we meet him at the polish trade station, commission. packed was equipment and protective gear. anatole is waiting to ward the train to ukraine to join the fight. they do have the manpower, what they need, ah, in my opinion, instructors team leaders to get people through the pipeline. the training pipeline was 5 years experience as an instructor in the finished defense force, he's eager to share his knowledge with ukrainians. who like combat experience,

we meet nicholas, the financial consultant from france doesn't want us to show his face. he says he couldn't stand seeing russia bombing civilians and europe's hesitant response. i saw a charter and dying on tv. and so we are doing nothing. so i off to the nicholas tells us he would be stupid, not to be afraid as his journey to the was own continues 1st to leave it and then to the front lines. knowing that he might never come back. gwendolen putting also has urged supporters to go to fight with the russian forces . and in fact, the chechen commander a cutter off is said to be in ukraine is all of this are going to help one side or the other. could it make the conflict shorter, or could it prolong it?

i think it won't actually and matters so much in terms of our how things get dragged out. and now how this war will eventually hopefully come to come to a stop. so i think it's more on the ukrainian side as international legion is more about boosting while and it makes our symbolic point a political point very, as far as we know, very different kinds of people with different training and ongoing. so it's not that these all well trained soldiers like soldiers going, so the effect on the actual war i think, will be limited on much aside. and yes, we hear about are several 100 perhaps several thousands and chechen fighters. this is also about psychological warfare to instill fear, in particular the stage when urban warfare might be the next stage of going into into the cities. but again, also, russia engages other mercenaries or other other also syrian mercenaries and,

and recruited through russian private security firms. at work, but it is and to carry out special operations that one probably doesn't want more russian soldiers to get killed. and it is about the psych, a psychological effect on the russian army market. very briefly, if you would, you see a risk that the foreign fighters present could actually provoke escalation of root will totally agree with women am, i think it doesn't really influence the fighting on the broad and they might have an influence depending on the way the, the war rolls in the next couple of weeks, and russia, if you would just say a word to us in closing, our title asked, who can help you crane? what would be the perception in poland at the moment? is there frustration is there is some frustration in poland. poland clearly demands that the west, the nato, and the western european countries do more for ukraine. that means they send more weapons, they say, and more money in the made a bigger diplomatic,

pushed towards russia to stop this war. thank you very much. thanks to all of you for being with yesterday. and thanks to all of you for tuning in a with

who nina love playing the piano, but now she's fleeing from war series. world revolves around soccer. but now he's stuck in a bomb shelter. katerina is in love, but will she ever see her boyfriend again? war in ukraine cries for help from hell. focus on europe.

in 30 minutes on d. w. enter with sebastian, the ukrainian poets of matter you follow as will stood russia's relentless onslaughts, but 50 years old or destroyed. is this how russia bronze to strangle others to suppress you crave my guest this week is marcia unmoved. kit ski advisor to the coach you to move the defense? how long can this all go on complete van building here? 910 minutes on d. w. o is the end of the pandemic in sight. we show what it could look like. return to normal. and we visit those who are finding it difficult

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ah ah, this is dw news live from berlin, ukraine's president calls for global protests against the wall. below them is the landscape asks people to show their support for ukraine on thursday. exactly one month after russia stated started its full scale invasion. also coming up, u. s. president joe biden arrives in europe for emergency talks with nato allies, leaders from g 7 and e. u countries are also meeting in brussels to find

a way forward for ukraine.