rowing and young people clearly have the solution for future loans. as 77 percent. every weekend on d w the warren ukraine has triggered a seismic shift in politics with far reaching international repercussions. german economics minister, robert hobbin, whose mission was to help germany go green heads to the middle east seeking new sources of fossil fuels. a u. s. president who wanted to take care of the home front, travels to europe, looking to shore up a united front with you and nato allies can either deliver results that help stem. the conflict and its effects. we're asking biden versus putting. can the u. s. stop the war and ukraine.

welcome to to the point. it is a great pleasure to greet our guests sariah. so hardy nelson is a talk show host at the common ground. berlin podcast, and former correspondent for the u. s. broadcaster and p. r. michel tillman is diplomatic correspondent at the german weekly did site, and it's a great pleasure to welcome back to the show of my colleague roman con charice. he is a ukrainian by birth, and it works with d w's, russia language service in boston. and i'd like to begin a if i may, with you sariah, following the trump presidency and the disastrous us exit from afghanistan. many people doubted whether there was still any will on the part of the us to lead.

is that different? now? would you say that u. s. president biden is right. when he says the u. s. is back. well, the us may be back, or at least the will, but he certainly is not benefiting or in the numbers or in the polls or in terms of his, the support that he's getting from the american public. i mean, i think there is there still a lot of doubt about whether he can manage this crisis. i mean, and out as what the americans are saying in the fact that he's having that kind of a difficult in a us sort of begs the question, what is it going to be like in europe over these next days, as he's meeting with leaders here and michelle, as, as diplomatic correspondent, how would you describe biden's mission on this trip to europe? what can he accomplish and what does he need to accomplish? well, i think he needs to come up with her with a response together with the europeans, and that is the challenge with a response to the ever more brutal war going on in ukraine and a response also to

a possible war crimes or to the expulsion of old parts of big cities in ukraine and, and of course they will after deal also with the very latest challenges for european unity and american unity as far as scares and oil deliveries are concerned. so holding the whole club together, that will be the main challenge over the next 48 hours. in fact, we've seen a remarkable degree of western unity do you think that is now winning? well, and i, i don't see it yet because we have of course, peculiarities, like victo all bon prime minister of hungary, you always begs to be a bit different. but then we see, finally when it comes down to the final vote is he falls in line and and so i don't see the, the,

the unity crumbling yet. but it might come further down the road. roman and excuse me, i miss pronounce your last name or would i introduce you? but let, let me ask you this, and many observers have said from the beginning that this conflict is really about russia versus the u. s. would you say that that is right? and if so, what could biden actually do to change rushes calculus? well, i would disagree. i think it's a, it's a conflict between russia and the west, the west of civilization, and the worst as a system, political system and economic system. and this is how russia is, has been seeing this conflict for years and years where it's not actually new. the west refused to see it like that. the west has been looking at it as a conflict between russia and ukraine, which is just a battlefield. and i think to your question,

how could the u. s. or maybe stop it? i think i'm looking back for some weeks maybe months prior to this conflict. we've seen how the u. s. administration reacted differently. they disclose the information that they had about this plan of this war. this was new and this allowed the u. s. and its allies, a u. k, and some other nato countries to supply you. craig, with weapons. and that was very, very important for ukraine, because it is, it's those weapons that ukraine to received in the couple of weeks before the war from the west that enabled ukraine to stand firm. without those weapons, i'm sure russia would have seized a much bigger territory of ukraine by now. so i think the past for the coming days and weeks is to continue in that direction and i want to make weapons for your grand. exactly. and i want to pick up on that point in just

a moment. it's become commonplace to say that vladimir putin under estimated the west. but the reverse is also true. long as the list of political leaders who clung to the belief that put in would act rationally and avoid dragging russia and ukraine into a ruinous war. and joe biden was amongst them when us president joe biden and vladimir putin shook hands in geneva last june. the russian president already started massing his troops on the border with eastern ukraine. hooton's words from back, then thou sound like mockery. what did to the door strength? the leaders of 2 countries. yeah, given of 2 main nuclear power. so our meeting to make the world, say, the western them stable, that yours and prosperous. but it suit them home for all the people on our planet is really nothing. when you 8 months later, potent invaded ukraine and bind responded with sanctions. who is the aggressor?

poon chose this war and now he in this country will bear the consequences if june is up with a it's a how to scholar the west wants to divide our society by speculating on military losses. statistics on the socio economic consequences of sanctions. it, when it was and he is using it's 50 column to achieve a goal goal. the goal is to destroy russia. a philomena usually resolution your ac? oh, i guess the war for me, the name as the war in ukraine, irreparably destroyed, fine and pollutants, relationships. and let me pass that question straight on to a sariah with the additional question. do personal relationships actually matter? it's often bed said that barack obama made an enormous mistake. these a v. putin, when he referred to russia, for example, as a regional power. but do you think it matters these words that are tossed around

killer war criminal and, and, and so on. i think it definitely matters. certainly it matters for vladimir putin. you know, he, he's in a very bad spot right now at this stage. i mean, he, i think he's surprised or shocked as perhaps we are, you know, with, with what's been happening in ukraine. the fact that there's been so much pushback and he has no choice. and i don't think he would. i don't think he's going to trust joe by jennifer, and i don't see how joe biden changes in his tone or tune either. i mean, it is interesting in the united states that the republicans are now slowly starting to be very vehemently anti booting and they're starting to say things. but the question becomes again, if this war does and, and somehow pollutant remains and power, you know, what, what is that relationship going to be like a post this i, i don't know how they come back from this. i think it's is ruinous as the ground and ukraine. the thing is though donald trump idolized vladimir putin, he has

a weakness, as we know for strong men, but that didn't change anything. did it? the fact that he showed putin respect why it didn't accept that a lot of the situation that we're seeing now as a result of the us not taking this seriously. and europeans not taking this seriously. i mean, it's not just trump, we can go back to the s b d and germany and look at the relationship of various leaders including of former chancellor gerhard schroeder. and what impact that's had, i mean, you know, rush has had a long time to, to get to this point to be able to, to, to launch this invasion, my should michelle way. and on the same point, if you would, as sariah just mentioned. we've also seen a lot of german leaders trying to cultivate dialogue with putting, including the current chancellor. will have schultz did any of that help to moderate his actions. no, it did not. this policy is clearly failed. and i think it's, it's striking to see how right after 2014, which was basically everybody's talking about

a wake up call right now. i think we have the catastrophe unfolding before our eyes . but the wake up call was differently in 2014, but they didn't draw the right conclusions and it, it happened right after 201415 or dad. the social democrats and germany invented or north stream to together with gus from and for gas. if i'm blind, that brought i would bring a gas directly into germany from russia. exactly and circumventing ukraine and so, and that basically was all done after after the annexation of crimea. and the problem is though they all thought they were a lot of leaders in europe. and of course, you mentioned donald trump, who thought we could somehow do business with vladimir putin. but what we did not see and what they did not see you was the stead you incremental radicalization of proteins, nationalism which he had adopted in 201112 as an ideology to keep

russia under control. roman biden has long had quite good relations with ukraine. and in fact, when he was vice president in the administration of barack obama, he gave his blessing to u. s. military training for ukrainian forces. has that made a difference? is that one reason why we're seeing those forces really able to hold off or even push back the russians? oh so, so if i may just a remark to what sariah has just said, i do not think that personal relations between putting in biden meta and in this conflict, of course, they are important, but i think they're overestimated because for russia, there is so much at stake, as i've said, russia sees itself in a, in a almost biblical struggle with the west. so they would have invaded ukraine no

matter what's the name of the u. s. president is just to remind you, a bomber was very soft and put in 2009 the reset policy after the war in georgia. so obama was very respectful to put in. it didn't stop the russian president from planning this war. and i'm sure this war has been planned for many, many years. so come back to your question, bud biden in ukraine? yes, he has his special relations to a relation to ukraine. he's the 1st u. s. president. who knows, rec, or ukraine very well as a vice president during the obama years. and he was supporting ukraine militarily for the past years. but it was the trump administration that actually started to arm ukraine in 2018. we have to remember that. thank you. very much sariah during the troops build up in january and february and we heard this

mentioned earlier by repeatedly warned that the u. s. did believe a full scale invasion was in the offing. and in fact, they provided intelligence information on that. at the same time president by made it clear that there would be no us boots on the ground and no us planes in the air . was he right to rule that out so firmly in advance and is the u. s. do think doing enough to support ukraine now? well, i think it's a very dangerous dance on a tightrope that, that the president biden, that nato, that the west is having to do here. i mean, i think it was the correct thing to do because i agree to disagree with with roman . but i do think that that basically the landscape was set for, you know, by the way, by the softness of western actions for prudent to do what he did. i mean, i, i don't think you would have invaded no matter what. so i don't think that you know, you have to be careful. the man has his hand on the button. i mean,

what if he were to launch chemical or biological or nuclear weapons in response because he feels he has no way out. you can't corner him, you know, to that extent because we just don't know what he's capable of. and so i think that that was necessary for those statements to be made for them to continue to be made . it's a very fine line as to how much support we can give, but i think we have seen a ratcheting up and we have seen the u. s. starting to deliver more, but they just have to be very careful not to cross that line. and i think it's, it's really difficult for president biden to, to walk that line to continue to walk that line. let me ask you michelle about that line. we're hearing some people would say, rather hair splitting discussions, both in the u. s. and here about offensive versus defensive weapons, and whether they could be delivered to ukraine, about whether particular types of weapons and systems are possibly would be considered a pro cation or whether they in fact would be a legitimate form of support. does all of that make sense?

is it commensurate with modern warfare and beyond that? is it, it can be, be sure that putting actually things in the same categories that we do well, he opened, he said that he sees the western arms deliveries to ukraine as a kind of intervention by international law. it is not in russia has intervened in the same same way in many other conflicts or has the u. s. m. but what does i think important? here's the chris of what, what kind of weapons might stop him or what kind of deliveries are sensible and which are not. i think the weapons ukraine is getting right now. have proved very effective. the entire tank and anti air miss sites and weapons. they got from allies western allies and also from germany after,

after all, the a long time of decision making and very effective. so are the turkish drones the by rock tar drones. and what would be entirely ineffective is a no flights own, for example, simply because what the russians are doing, know they are firing cruise missiles from the caspian sea. they are firing from inside russia. they can actually do the same as the u. s. is doing over many hundreds of kilometers. so for no flights on, if you extended to ukraine, you have to extended actually over great parts of russia. if you don't do it, it's ineffective. and so if you're not ready to do that, then don't start with roman, the war is currently at a stalemate. in fact, there's more and more talk of a potential victory for ukraine. what does that mean for negotiations to resolve the conflict? and do you think there is a role in talks for president biden?

of course there is, i wouldn't say that we can talk of ukrainian victory at this moment. the, it's too early and are russia is definitely waging a long term war on. so it will continue for months icing, i think, at least and of course there is are all for the u. s. for the bite and administration, ukraine has been asking, since we have our nor normandy format anymore, we don't have the means agreement to load the eastern ukraine. these formats are dead. a since russia has invaded ukraine, so we, it will have to establish a new format. so far we have seen talks direct talks between russia and ukraine. but i think when we come closer to a real solution of the problem, a ceasefire and an agreement, then there will be of course, a place for the u. s. at the table or more even more, i think without the us no agreement can be reached at. are we seeing any progress

in any of these other diplomatic channels? whether it's the talks in bell, i roost, the talks that have been held in turkey. do you really see any signs of true progress? no, not at all. i'm very pessimistic about those stocks. it's important that they talk . one thing that can come out of it are the humanitarian corridors, the so called corridors, which actually does not work so far as they should be. but they're awesome and, and people's lives are saved. so we're short and we should continue in that direction. but as far as the ceasefire is concerned, i think russia has no interest at all to stop fighting to stop at this moment. russia is getting ready for a longer war, and ukraine is desperately trying to negotiate a ceasefire. but i think the chances am very little leah michelle way,

and on the same question, if you would please, do you think that biden could open a channel potentially directly to president, put in put it has so far, refused to negotiate directly with the ukrainian president lensky yeah, well i think about him could of course, and i mean he has done so before and i'm, i think also put in what would speak to him. but i thing to no avail, because basically, and he, i agree with roman that indeed putin once to bring this war to the end. i think it is his mission. it is what he deems in his historical position on, on the same pedestrian like with peter the great and joseph stalin as the big conqueror and that he wants to bring it to an end. and i think it's very difficult to stop him, and that is also why he doesn't want to talk to zelinski despite all the problems

the russian army is having. and they could definitely need a breathing, some breathing space now. but hooting is not willing to give it because simply, he wants to, his personal popularity. his position in history in russia is dependent on the successful end of this war. on this point of view, sariah, let's come back to the question of biden's mission. both ensuring up western unity and also pushing back harder against putting the u. s. recently stopped. it's in ports of russian oil. would you be expecting a president biden, to be putting pressure on e, you and nato allies now to do the same? i don't think he's going to push, i mean, i think what he's going to understand is more beneficial is to try and find alternatives and to help europe's overcome their dependency on your european countries. overcome their dependency on russian oil and gas. you can't just send

the economies of the, your western allies into a tailspin just what's basically what happened if you just shut everything down. and so i think that he and he's, his people have talked about this as he was boarding planes. you know, i think that there is going to be some attempt to try and address the shortage that is going to ensue from moving away from the, you know, russian oil and gas. and so i think that's what his mission. but i also think this is a really important time for him to sort of give, basically make nato more of a european function, you know, but he should maybe be talking to them about making a, having a european commander for the supreme or for the forces within nato and also in basically reinforcing the idea of a european defense fund that sort of thing. i mean, he has to show that kind of support, i think that is going to work more effectively than strong arming because the u. s . is lost so much credibility. not just because of trump, but even during obama's time,

and i don't think that you come in and you strong arm again that, that's really going to basically get the europeans to do anything. frankly, the stage. let's talk about energy because in fact the conflict in ukraine is concentrating minds when it comes to energy independence. overall, the u depends on russia for around 40 percent of the natural gas that warms homes and fuels power stations. winning economies off those imports has become an urgent, albeit uncomfortable mission for politicians like germany's economics and climate minister, robert havoc, he is a green party politician, dedicated to deep carbon ization. buddy wound up rushing off to the middle east to negotiate the purchase of liquefied natural gas as a substitute for russian imports. one slight consolation, his new partners interest in also supplying green hydrogen which eventually could replace fossil fuels. michelle, russia has just announced interesting timing that unfriendly countries,

as it calls them, including of germany will in future have to pay rubles for gas deliveries that would directly undermine western sanctions against russia. central bank is this the long dreaded embargo coming in through the back door? yeah, well it's produced typical tactics of protein. he so what he does, he wouldn't block oil exports and he wouldn't put the direct embargo, but he would leave the choice, urge the west, and it's basically then now you can choose between bad and words and it's your self inflicted wounds you're facing. they're basically what it means to pay and rubles yes, it's undermining the sanctions of western countries would have to buy rubles with the from the russian central bank which is under sanctions. do you think they do it

or is that the point at which they say ok, we're ready for go? i don't, i don't think they will do it because basically this would then what we talked about before this would then actually be the find a crack in all of the big crack in the western unity. and i think also the german government would not it, i'd be very surprised if they bought rubles, all of a sudden and this is what put in one stood. this is basically the choice poochie presents to them that you have to submit and buy robots in order to get oil and gas . i think we're entering here at phase, and 1st they will probably go on just because putin is clearly in breach of the contract. and he shows here that all everybody who says, well, the soviet union has been all with been a reliable supplier. putin as not. and he's not been since 2006. and so we're using and sorry, i'm just going to a supply. we don't have a lot of time left on the clock. are you expecting a cut off of is,

is what i am saying we are. yes, we are entering a phase in, at the end of this phase, there will be a cut off of russian gas deliveries to your roman president. so lensky sent a remarkable video message directly to the germans saying they are gas imports feed proteins. war machine, is he right? and is it simply time now for that door to be shut? well, yes, she's right. germany has my big mistakes, importing russian gas, and i think it's time for an embargo. i think it will. it will be coming in the, in the weeks ahead, we've lost the initiative to putin, but now it's time to move on. sariah could germany handle the hat to its economy to jobs? we heard the chancellor warning and pretty dire terms. i think i think so, just because there is a stella reserve that allows this winter to be passed so, but they'll just have to expedite. they are finding other sources or l n g. thank

you very much to all of you for being with us on to the point. and thanks to all of you for tuning and see you soon. a with

who ah. tony's of dispatch. with natalia and dema, they were ruled when the rule broke out. now they want to return to ukraine to their children with maria and her grandchildren from odessa, difficult to escape by foot and th hiking ukrainians, fee prudence truth to an uncertain future closeup in 30 minutes on d. w. o.

not just another day. so much is happening all at once. we take time to understand this is the day and in depth look at current news. events was analyzed by experts and critical thinkers. not just another new show. this is the weekdays. on d, w sometimes a seed is all you need to allow big ideas to grow. we're bringing environmental conservation to life with learning backs, like global ideas. we will show you how climate change and environmental conservation is taking shape around the world and how we can all make

a difference. knowledge grows through sharing, download it now for free. what does war do to people? are hatred and violence inherited from generation generations and award winning documentary searches for answers for 2 years. the all through a company's us. so a fist family in northern syria with insights into the isolated world of radical islamists and into a spiral of violets without end with

a film about family, faith, masculinity of fathers, and starts april 16th. oh, d, w ah, that's the saint w news, and these are top stories on was russia has signaled it may shift its war aims, and ukraine, a senior russian military officials as the army will now focus on gaining complete control of ukraine's eastern don bass region. russia has besieged cities like harkey and mario po, leaving them and ruins. it is also faith, major resistance to its invasion, and western intelligence says ukrainian forces are now regaining ground in some area.