et cetera, but at the same time she was attacking chechnya in a very vicious way. so he doesn't heidi's ideas if he doesn't heidi's motivation. what is his motivation at this point in time? what is driving letting me put it? i would say emotions. i would say that to what is driving him is a kind of recent whole. he has attempt to be to a pewter, more western in the very beginning of his career than he became calm, perhaps so full of resentment because he decided it's not a good way to go in russia. it's a, it's a completely different idea. and what he is driven by is also, i do believe the, the goal to the straw ukraine just destroyed because it has said no, the korean said no, they didn't want to become a part of russia. thus, this is a war which has a goal of destroying train completely. and this is not just that this is not just

about the military situations, is about the personal clash between presidents, zalinski and, and put in who, who has the up a home there at the moment. okay. describe the interaction for so yeah, i think right now in the west there is it's hard to find a figure that's more moral and more righteous than of loading mirrors. zalinski. i mean, he is really, he and his people have carried effectively the price of freedom. and i think the american president, in his speech in poland, but also his pronouncements. i at the summit re made that made that i entirely clear. but of course, in his contacts while we're putting in, we see those both in the surveys that are done in the country. we see this when we get the snippets of the propaganda that is being fed to the russians. the imperialist vision is combination that putting has really put together in it. and i'll miss a genius, nefarious genius, tactical way, and that we're observing sort of at 900 century war. the seemingly is about territory. the intent is to break apart as we were just discussing, the 20th century security architecture into pieces that will force us to

reconstruct what we have and then doing it with 21st century methods that there's an element of cyber that there's an element of hybrid that there's all sorts of other components that will aid in his tactical ambitions, but that the manifestation will be, or he will try to have the manifestation be territorial increased annexation just allows him to continue to feed the image in country that he is establishing himself as you know, a sort of a novel, sorest an imperialist figure, and talking about 2 images and 2 to talking about how images are fed up. so just want to go back to, to go stuff for a 2nd because we've had this new, we thought this line coming in to the last several hours and more questioning whether vladimir putin is actually being given by his intelligence services for the full truth. what can you tell us about that to do you have any sources that can the, can fill us in on what's going on there?

well, it's hard to assess because i don't have an intelligence agency that has access to a terminal or rational cable. so it's hard to guess, but the problem is with caring systems and be the alternate system to entrench for such a long time. that the legal piece, people who are like minded to share the same issue and, and that is something that has been served well actually the policy has been picking on the police in news that the trees are your logical and, and a sort of history mindset. so it is very likely even if he, even if he's fed on $0.91, he might not consider them serious are the people. ready sort of 2 bonds, they want to re fi team with stuff they think he might like is also quite light. and your thing is, of course, to what extent,

really all to the russian course in the affair that it's hard to predict how c i'm in the future. if you train on the future of europe is now decided on the battlefield. and i love a battle field, of course it doesn't matter with affix ok, thanks for that. now, only recently president zalinski sent out his vision of a post war you crane. this is how it might look. let's talk about that in just just a 2nd good. as you deserve, pleasant security guarantees and neutrality non nucular status of our country. we are ready to go forward. that's the most important point. it was the main point for the russian federation. that's why they started this war. funny zebulon the gee way here to guarantee sir neutrality, non nuclear status, that's water the ukrainians thereafter will let me put in at any stage stomach that vision. well, in negotiation you always have to give the other side some thing that allows them

to save face. and the whole bit about the non nuclear pieces. of course the, the, you creating president playing very clearly and cleverly to what the russian audience is seeing. because of course, ukraine has been non nuclear since the ninety's that was part of the original and the original budapest ad memorandum and agreement. so, but the fact that yes to say that is something that then can be fed directly into the propaganda machine of the kremlin, and quote, unquote gives vladimir putin a sense of sort of victory and message. right. the message is arriving. i'm much more worried about this idea of neutrality because how we then define neutrality and death. gustavo said it out at the, at the, at the beginning of our program is, what would that look like? what does sovereignty and neutrality in that fusion look like? are you not inviting in a consistent opportunity for russia to create conflict into a frozen in the way that he's done it before with george on other parts of the post, soviet space, a frozen set of conflicts that then he ultimately still ends up controlling. so the

real question is, what does sovereignty mean with respect to security guarantees, and what would those security and who guarantees those security guarantees and are they trustworthy? so we're not there yet. in the negotiations, darlena 2 words, 2 to one of them got on to the table just a minute or so ago, trust, mistrust. you know how important to these 2 commodities in the, in the days the months, the years that lie ahead. catherine said previously that a when ski is today a person who is the most moral figure, perhaps in our, in this, in this war, in this situation i would say something more because it's connected with trust and mistrust, namely, so when it is also a person who today is the most capable of explaining of uttering what the eastern and central europeans think about russia and what their experiences. and this is very important because this trust and mistrust towards russia comes in this region

from a certain historical experience. it is, it is rooted in our history, usually it's a very long history of 300 years, at least. and it is a history of a 1st competition between the poland polish imperialism and the russian imperialism . then somehow polish lost the competition and, and what left, what was left was the russian imperialism. and they did the, the most important experience of this region is that the russian imperialism comes back after some time ever and ever and ever again. so it's a dormant of imperialism, but it always picks up. and i do believe that is extremely important to, to, to also to, to take this, this thrust historical mistrust into account. although i do believe also that it's very important that we'll listen to the, to the, to the utterances of the eastern europeans of the meeting, central europeans who are perhaps less nuanced when it comes to what measures we

could take in this situation against russia. and sir, not only listen, but also to create a compromise between the, the western and the eastern members of nato. because what's in the interest of what they mean? reporting is, of course, that we become divided. says he says let's, let's take a quick look at the map to get some sort of an overview of what is a complex situation in a huge country. no, russian forces have so far been trying to gain ground for 3. so it's in the north, they have approached the capital kia in the east. meanwhile, there are the pro russian separatist territories have done those and hands can do the independence, recognized by putin in himself is what they have in the south and southeast. that's the key city that is the strategically and symbolically important call from mary paul. and there's also in the, in the west as living. now,

that was her. that's the background. and i'd like to come back to catalina again and just ask her a little bit about the spirit in all of these areas of ukraine in the, in the, in the fighting against the russians. where does that defiance come from? i think it comes from the past her years that, that to divide us from, from what happened in 2014. so it basically comes from the experience that there's the crayons to say to gained after crania was annex 8 at by russia. they have been, they have been training. if you ask a ukrainian i asked for example, the refugees that come to worse. so what is their attitude to, to, to weapons they say that we have weapons in every basement in our country. this is a completely other state of mind. i must, i must say i'm, i'm impressed because my own country, poland has went. it has gone

a completely different throat. after $989.00, we basically decided not to train a whole society militarily and we thought it's actually an achievement. now obviously we have to change our thinking. it is nevertheless, despite what you're saying, very reminiscent of 944 in poland and the, and the ra uprising against the german occupation back there. it's a very, i would say the association goals, not with the, was raising the, but with 1939. because this is our experience of being abandoned by the west and at back that time, also pictures of bombarded war. so where were published in the press internationally. and yet there was this phony war in which the western allies didn't do enough to protect poland. they perhaps prolonged hitler from attacking the western europe, but still that, that, that, that the,

the war came. so this is basically as the association i, i don't say that it's the right association. but there is a very deep intuition here that this might be a domino effect. okay, let me go start back in because i think there's a very important thing that there seems to be a very important strategic shift taking place at this point in time, away from trying to cap or to occupy, alter, to capture as it were. the capitol kia from him in a different direction. the word that's being used for all this is liberating the dumbass region liberating is being used in almost all worley and sense. and i'd like to invite you to explain what's going on there. it's not almost a year and it is completely automatically in. yes. so basically me a failed on one needs to state that from the beginning of the war, he was the center of gravity of the russian most forces, right?

kind of a fire was use their motion on us on the russian forces didn't change far enough that even the new reinforcement that might come find me a present. they will not be in a position to take such a large city that has not been cited. and that has prepared itself for defense. many a full is still holding out and it's a 10 or the size of key if i wasn't psychic, very early on. so they are concentrating on the east military success is more likely and can be organized more easily. but we still see read all the past days. very heavy souls are coming more you region on the city of austin fall ukrainians. cool. told the lines there also down very experienced ukrainian forces actually on,

in this region defending it because it was the form of joint forces operation. the former will involve us. so it's not an easy me to charity for the russian side of but still they try on the seems to be something they might might might sort of look for phrasing. and once they have reached the whole thing done, yes. go ok. and i'd like to just bring catherine back in again. and the question i have is how, where is all going? well, you know, how can i look at it? how's it going to end? we got the sanctions, we've got the weapons, we've got the tough talking troop deployment and so on and so forth. is that going to lead to somehow to prove to be a sort of a game changing model? well, i think it's going to be really difficult to figure out what the idea of sovereignty and territorial control means in this particular situation. because as good stuff

is already pointing out, if the one way and if, if, if, if put his plan really is, you know, as quote unquote, the dying petro state, that it is given what we are seeing, climate change in the transformational situation, which we find ourselves globally, is real way to settle. this would be to claim the south, the key ports of mar, you pull, possibly odessa, all the oil, rich shale and shale and oil and territories in the east. if that's his goal, to kind of just put a stake in the grad of global competition, then that's what he's going to try to push for. but on this side of the you and of nato potentially though that possibility has now. and it sort of moved off the proverbial negotiation table you would have if in fact, as you create does join a join to you long term. you're baking in a conflict into, you know, the largest historical piece project. there has been in this world and how with that actually function. what would prevent vladimir putin from continuing his

various tactical maneuvers the sort of death by a 1000 cuts even if it's not kinetic and militarily, materially spoken. in the long term of keeping this up, cyber hybrid, all the issues that i've already mentioned it's, we're looking at a very, very insecure situation. and i think we're looking at a very, very long situation. because what we have to do to be the sense into recently this could be, i mean, a devastating, horrible whole from war, but it could be a short war. well, exactly, and i think now we're always, we're having to come to the realization that in fact, a long drawn out protracted sort of death by a 1000 cuts maneuver might hurt the west more because the cohesion right now, what is the main tool, an asset of the west quota, what i'm thinking of the west writ large australia, japan, everybody who's part of the sanctions package and regime is to keep that package together. and the longer this goes on and the more the sanctions hurt and they will hurt and they will hurt our societies in the west. and the less prepared we are for that pain. the, the,

the grandeur of the bigger the hand of lot of your putting the cotton's and that is where the danger lies. so time is a critical factor here. so many interesting so many wise words that we're running out of time. but i mean, we're sitting here in been berlin in the german capital, so i would like to give one of you. i think a couple of the options you just a germany has accused has been accused of being too cautious of staying home, of being non committal of being a reluctance to get involved fully here and support you know, thousands and thousands of people who've been, who've been devastated and destroyed their have their livelihoods is not a fair charge made against germany. i think that germany is now undergoing a very serious process of change and this has been started launched by this war. there is no other way to new germany. perhaps indeed, from the eastern european point of view, i could say, well, but perhaps it would be,

it would have been wise to say earlier that such projects as the north trim pipelines were never a merrily economic projects never. but perhaps it's also not good to look into the past. perhaps it's even more important to think about germany tomorrow, germany in a couple of in a couple of years, whether what, what it's, or it's attitude towards own military potential will be what it's an attitude towards helping ukrainians and helping other nations that could also be attacked by putting it's much more important. and as for that, i have seen a lot of reasons and a lot of cautious but, but also courageous reactions here. ok for one final word from gustavo, can you crane or even begin to dream of a new start at any time in the near future? well, designing the future of the battlefields and this is what they're concentrating off

. it's not over yet. they have a tremendous amount of determination and skill in defending themselves, but they still need a lot of western support when not and soon. a rush is destroying the infrastructure, especially defense industry. they will need re supply resupply only boss, a task to play as well. okay, thank you for being with me today. i wish we had just a little bit more time. meg fantastic thoughts. we'll be talking about the war in ukraine or what might prove to be a very, very important juncture in that conflict. thanks for joining us. come by next time until i'm by, by and trips with

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w ah, this is the w reside from, but then the wards china against helping russia and it's war against you cry or to evade west and sanctions. european commission president says for the fun the lives as beijing risks, reputation or damage. if you thought back to moscow, a child says it won't be forced to take sides. also, on the program, red cross convoy traffic to evacuate civilians from ukraine's besieged city of mateo. all these forced to turn around the age groups as it's not clear whether