there are different forms of time. tar ah, with a dimension, if we know we won't live forever. an illusion. about time presenting futures past starts april 14th on d, w. d. o. the world has been confronted with horrific images of atrocity as against civilians allegedly committed by russian forces in ukraine. we can find the courage and then qualitative genocide because there's so much resemblance of the events of 20th century. how should western allies respond? my guest on conflicts own as lithuanian, foreign minister, gabriella lance bagus. he joins me on the line from bill nina, who to newsome, which is more than just one person if it stays. that means that this country will be ready to r,

to deploy aggressive tactics on war against neighbors again. and this cannot be allowed as the e u debates the next round of sanctions. lithuania has already moved to ban russian energy in ports. it has long urged a tougher line on prudence. russia, how tough our allies willing to get now. and how far does he think hooton's war in ukraine could go? join me for all that more on conflicts out foreign minister, land baggage. welcome to conflicts own morning. we have seen the images of bodies scattered along the streets and boots on the outskirts of t, of some apparently shot with their hands tied behind their backs, allegedly by russian forces president the landscape. calling this a genocide is it. i think that we we can find a courage and then call it the genocide because there are so much resemblance of

the events of 20th century that we thought that belong in their history books. and we keep have to remind ourselves on, on those events, compare them and find the exact exact wording for, for how to, how to form. but then again, i think it's also as important, not only to, to call it what it is, but also to find those who are responsible for them and bring them to justice. indeed, ukraine has demanded an investigation into alleged abuses by the international criminal court that the international criminal court in conjunction with ukraine and the you in investigate. these alleged abuses. do you realistically though c potent or a senior general being brought before the icpc to face justice? i think the procedures are there for, for that reason. and we have to really take all the necessary steps

that are available to us. that means that we have to investigate we have to identify all the victims, identify the perpetrators and if possible, yes, bring them to justice. and now only time will tell whether those exact people who committed when you say a legit i think that you know, at least from from my pot i, i can be certain who, who is behind this. we know even the battalions we know, even the troops even now we know them by name, who were occupying the butcher to add to that we know people who gave them orders because they did that. and so there is no a lot of room for a legend this in this, in this case. and then again, i would really, i would really hope to see them brought the just what more do you think we know?

can you share some of that information with us? cuz i mean we're, we're hearing from the likes of human rights watch saying that they have documented cases of rape summary executions by russian forces it citing unspeakable deliberate cruelty and violence against ukrainian civilians. the lensky has warned of worse atrocity as yet to be uncovered, and he's pointing to areas, in particular, in the west of ukraine that, that have also been occupied by russian forces. what is your intelligence telling you? right, well, it is clear that russia, russian troops where using a, a deliberate terror tactics against civilians in order to are to press 4 for results as fast as possible. when they failed and on their military field, then they turned to disability and, and this is what we are actually seeing now. and i agree with that with the saying that probably the worse is yes, get to be revealed. unfortunately,

you have to be well mentally, also prepared for the fact that the more territories are liberated by your friendly an army, the march awesome. we will, we will know off, and therefore again, we have to be ready and prepared with a legal framework. so that we, not only the political reactions would be needed, but also concrete measures that can be taken by, by the west and by the western world with the tools that we have there was hope when i'd like to just address that, that hope that we heard last week that potent might actually scale down his offensive mosque was that it would focus on liberating, don't boss draw back from the capital key of was that a pull down or a ploy? i think it's is seattle, it's i think that's what we're seeing is there regrouping because of the feelers on

the military field, we can, we can admit and not sure whether the generals in russia would be brave enough to admit, but they are losing in the, in the field, and that is why the average reaching and regrouping farther to these because this is where they might still think to achieve some sort in the military victories. to add to that i think that the sanctions i think in and kicking in. and i'm quite convinced that the government in trembling is trying to do its best in order to stab the life. they can amik situation by the can only hold so long. so that means that they need some sort of debate to start about about the retreat about their pragmatism that deciding show off. but i think it's, it's salty tricks and we not need to give into that. you mentioned the word regrouping. and i'm just wondering what you think comes next after such

a so called regrouping. nato secretary general interest oldenburg, for example, has said we can expect additional offensive actions bringing even more suffering. how far do you think put in is still willing to go all i think that everything is still on the table. the mall office he he achieves. so to say, i think the more cruelty we might be, we might be see. and with that, with a bit of groupings further to the east, and with this and 9th of may day closing again, i think this is where he will have to break one way or another. you will have to get rain even if it's a parade on the ashes of matter you will or, or some of the city. so therefore we have to be prepared for that. first of all, as i mentioned mentally. but secondly with additional waste of sanctions. and

further assistance to your friend, nothing. half of being won, yet. there were some victories in the field by a cranium where the western support, but that, that has to continue you seem to be describing a leader in a state of desperation. and so i just like to ask you how effective you think those measures those, those, those ratcheting up a sanctions can be. because as the e u weighs those tougher penalties on moscow, you already announced an end of import on russian oil and gas. the explosion of the russian ambassador from your country. do you really think that these moves can impact pollutants, calculus, or deter further atrocities against civilians? i think it's very important to talk about the, the game here as well. and we are, you know, very often talk about the tactics of the current events of what's happening in the field. you know, boucher and,

and the sanctions. it's still tactics. we have to talk about the n gates. what is the expectation and i can tell you that our station is the end of put in ism end of ideology that is currently running russia. and therefore everything has to be employed in order to achieve that. because if wooten ism, which is more than just one person, if it stays, that means that this country will be ready to, to deploy aggressive tactics and war against his neighbors again. and this cannot be allowed. therefore, if a country may be the wall country likely thingy, we have our own tools that we can do. we can imply, we will do that. and you mentioned several steps that were taken by by the senior government. one of them is it's a very important, i think that is cancelling the, the contract and gas contracts. and i think this shows the way that's possible to do that. and you, you very much been out front on this. we have to mention,

you've been one of the fiercest advocates for harsher sanctions against russia. you've called on your e u partners to act with you and impose an all outbound on russian oil and gas. but we've already seen it, germany hungry, austria, they've already pushed back on that. does the push back shock you? i think no, nothing can shop more than the massacre and butcher. and i hope that this is, this is shared by my colleagues. because in essence, when you think about it is when we're paying money to russian government beach, gas oil, you know, other ex, extract from, from the, from the oil. in the way, we're paying salaries to the soldiers who are committing those and massacres in cities like there is a very, very, very short lane between the amount that is being pain and the army that is able to,

to do what it does in your brain. talking that that has to be main. but haven't we've seen this story before and aren't there lessons to be learned to me because you've long been calling for a more meaningful action against putin's aggressions. and i'm thinking in chechnya, georgia crimea, your prime minister said recently that that the west was always pressing the snooze button. because, and i'm quoting here, the russian money smelled to good. how worried are you that the west could, could press the snooze button again. i mean, we're seeing some of those cracks in, in unity in the you there is this worry, there is a worry that somebody would say, ok, we need to normalize the, the, the situation again as the of the normalization has come from has to come from, from from us, from the way therefore, i'm saying look, even though we've, we've said that in 2008 in georgia, 2014, the 1st attack against

a crane. those were. busy already situations that were not normal they were already . busy destroying the rules based security, audit european, if you me now, i think that the order that we've so much tried to preserve is, is different. it has to be different and we have to be very active in creating this new new situation that will guarantee the safety for everybody in the region. so tell me, just frankly, then what do you think is going to be in the next sections package from the you? how, how strong can it possibly be? well, i'm definitely going to, i had to push for, for energy sanctions. and i know that it's, you know, it's a big bite it's, it's a difficult thing to agree upon. maybe we can, that we can approach it you know, step by step. so to say, so i think that the oil embargo could be introduced as, as early as the,

as next week. when we have ministers meeting in luxembourg, you mentioned a little bit earlier in our conversation. the whole concept of putting is, and the way that he has been governing the country. and i'd like to ask you us, president biden said in warsaw that could not remain in power something that you agree with. but both he and you, you have stress that you are not calling for regime change if not regime change, then what? because there doesn't seem be much chance of him being outed by the public or others who are close to him. well, i think that the main thing here is that no western country is saying that we are pushing for regime change, or either lithuania or united states would do, would take active measures in order to virgin to change in russia. i think that this way beyond our reach, so to say, but then again,

if we want to see a world coming back to some sort of normality that cannot happen with putin isn't in charge in russia. why i'm stressing that it's not just about the leader, because in many cases you can change the leader, but still retain the system. so it is more than just the leader. it's obviously more than just of war against ukraine when it will and, and that does not guarantee that the world will come to do some sort of their malady. so in general, we have to be prepared for i will take a long winter at your political long winter. how nervous is that make you feel for, for, for your security and your peace of mind? you're right there on the border. yes. well, 1st of all, you know, i would say that we've been training for that for, you know, i'm, that we were the, those who would say, let's look, this is not a secure and safe world that

a lot of what we're seeing that after the, the architecture of the security architecture after the cold war, many of that is just the facade. and on the other side of the facade, what we fell in the baltics was an aggressive regime with back quite a lot of imperialistic ideas and ideas of how to rebuild the world that it has lost . so i would say that we are not nervous to the point where we knew what is behind us out. so we're not that much surprised, but we would like for the west and our allies now to take this new reality adequately. and it has to be confronted with, i mentioned, you know, with the actual assistance to your crane and stepping up with us but also securing the securing the baltic states. and this is one of the things that we are raising in natal format that nato has to address this,

this new reality. and with practical measures, with additional security guarantees in that way or the reason. and along those lines of presidents, lansky has, has been even more dramatic. in his assertion of the challenges that you might face, he said, in fact, last month. if there is no more us than god forbid, lot the lithuania, estonia will be next. do you realistically fear that you will be next? i can tell you with all certainty that and when, when we are saying that ukraine is fighting, not for only their own country, but also for the baltics and other surrounding countries like mold of georgia. we mean it, this is actually what we are thinking if it is not stop, if he does not losing ukraine than he will go further. that is, that is the fact. and fortunately for us, ukrainians are doing everything that he can stop within his track. nato has,

and the western general has very much recently been patting itself on the back, you know, declaring how unified it is what it is doing to shore up its eastern flank. and so i'm just wondering what your assessment is of of the measures that we've seen so far. your minister of national defense says that the number of nato troops has increased by a 1000 since last year. it will now increase by a similar number. is that really good enough to defend against the threat posed by russia? i think it still does not reflect the new reality. i mean, we see and we very much value. that's what that was shown by our partners. and many, many of them have shown that germany, netherlands, normally, united states, obviously. and then many countries have show that they support the understand the situation. but then again, if we're talking about the alliance, i think that we're still haven't reached the level where we would address this,

this new reality. because it is, it is a dramatic change. it because the to tell you the truth before the 24th of february, and we will have several russian exercises outside of the thing and bought it. it will happen every 4 years or so. right now we have russian army fully arm in with intention to attack with the rocket launchers or every equipment embarrass. and we're talking just a geographic change that is dramatic then, then it was that it was before. basically, russia broadest army, fully equipped only to water, not only to attack, not, not only to attack your brain, but also to intimidate nathan needle has to react. we cannot take its businesses and in fact, nieto says that it will adopt a new strategic concept in madrid in june. second for dental stoughton berg has

promised that it will accelerate the transformation for a more dangerous strategic reality, such as the one that, that you described there. what would you need to see for that to ring? true to, to ultimately move from deterrence to defense on your borders. so you mentioned probably the, the most significant thing that we are looking into is, is that political 1st of all approach to what the situation before we thought and we committed to what is called the term strategy. that means that we are sending a very clear message to anybody who might be interesting to try something on natal waters that you will get an answer one way or another. now if we would like to see an agree felicity, 1st of all that these, this territory, these countries,

and 1st of all, the baltic states, why no, but you know, so typically different situation and knowing our relatively small size and even live in a situation where we have rush out to the west around our western border and bell ross and i bought it. so we would like to see that the strategy would be that these countries can be defended and will be defended with a very specific job numbers with a very specific equipment and air defense and all the things that are needed in defense. the fantasy has her up learned from its mistakes at putting you think. i mean, you're, you're, you're in the room. you have conversations with your, with your counterparts throughout the block should start pushing back harder against other authoritarian states. for example, like china and cheese pangs, accumulation of power there. that's an excellent question. because i think that

every author returns country is working from the same textbook. it's building the same leverage is against a gate if it's trace partners. now why we cannot that make certain steps political steps though it's russia because our dependency just do great. right. and i think at other you mentioned china, i don't think that there is a lot of difference in building that dependence on the way on the supply chains on there at some of them. again, some of the rare, let's say, you know that i needed. and that dependencies ban will limit our maneuvering space one way or another where we will be limited with our response with our action. and i think that is ultimately wrong. and we mentioned, you know, that with the situation in ukraine, you very much been been out front on banning russian oil and gas imports on

also expelling rushes ambassador to your country. you've also been very much out front on china as well. you've been in this dispute specifically after deepening ties with taiwan. why is taiwan of such interest to you in particular? because i mean, so many countries around the world, they financed the taiwan name issue by using type pay, finding a way to have relations with taiwan. while keeping china piece you chose to stand up to china. why? well, i think that it's a few few point that i would like to address. first of all, taiwan is an important partner and everybody agrees about that. especially, you know, in, in trade when, when even the big economists in europe suddenly find themselves lacking the semiconductors and things like that. so, and that, why do you turn to,

and who do you turn to? it's the spy one. so obviously there is a practical reasons why it tends to be likely thing you would think that there is a need to, to deepen. it's right with with i walk. so that's normal. the 2nd thing is the question of so grin we have our, our lithuanian one china policy that we're here to it's, it's addresses the questions of by china's integrity and all that. and china, the light does not approve our one. china was you. therefore, it once asked to change it, and since it does not have means to persuade us politically, then it chooses another different leverage. just do it to, to, you know, to basically, to cars, us, to pressure us, to change our bands when it comes to our national national interest. and this is

why i think there's a very important question is being very rude, like within a defend it sovereign legal decisions on its foreign policy when it suits our national interest. and i think that obviously a country that is a part of european union, the country that is a part of me to have an obligation to defend this over. and in cases like these i like to ask you because you talked about, you know, powers of coercion as well. you know, china has so far refused to condemn pollutant for the invasion, despite calls in the e. u for, for it to do so. in particular. do you have any hope for china playing an active role and in stopping the war? well, not a lot of optimism from from my side. i'm. i'm thinking that you know that this great zone of suppose the neutrality and the question. in

this, the rest of war against the frame is have reduced to almost nothing during the last last month. maybe you would have some doubts. at the beginning, i could have understand that. but, you know, when the war drops draws further, you know, when that we're seeing is pictures from, from butcher. basically you have to make a stat. and if you're not making us bad, i will say that you actually are making sort of a spend as well. i'd like to ask you just briefly before we go, what do you think your up looks like a year from now? i think that europe is force of crisis and this crisis will make a stronger foreign minister lithuania, las vegas. thank you so much for joining us. on conflicts, thank you. the

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who to the point in strong opinions, clear positions, international perspectives with russia's pull back north of care has brought relief. but harvard, as indications of a civilian bath, the car come to light will be apparent, war crime, convinced germany to embargo brush and fossil fuels. find out on to the to that point with on

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a film about family. faith, masculinity of fathers and sons starts april 16th on d, w. ah, this is dw news, and these are our top stories. the united nations general assembly is suspending russia from its human rights council over the war and ukraine. it's only the 2nd time a member state has been suspended from the council law. moscow has condemned the decision as politically motivated and illegal. nato members meeting in brussels have vowed to send more military and humanitarian aid to crane cubes. foreign minister made an impassioned plea.