appeal from ukraine's foreign minister to western allies to meet your calais boss as the fight for eastern ukraine is about to get much worse and his country desperately needs arms to defend its people. nato says it to expect a major battle in the don boss, and it's committed to providing a wide range of weapons for a conflict. the alliance believes may drag on for years. i'm abby qual dawson, and this is the day ah, by the don't boss will remind you, was 2nd world war ukraine meet weapons you noted to force russian troops to leave our country. we agree, the 3 most further strengthen on sustain our support to, to ukraine. we're not gonna let anything stand in the way of getting ukrainians what they need. i think it's an open question right now. how this ends. either you

help us now and i'm speaking about days not weeks or you help will come to late. ah. also on the day after a month of heavy fighting near keith, the russian army has withdrawn and the survivors civilians are emerging from their hiding places. by simply said, we didn't use to understand what it was that people and on boss have been going through. all these years stuck in their fellers last month has taught us what war is name. so oh, welcome to the program. as the warren ukraine enters its 7th week, the please for assistance are getting more urgent, ukrainian foreign minister demetrius, who maybe has met with nato counterparts in brussels and says keith needs more weapons deliveries now. or it will be too late. calais by us as ukraine is facing a military assault from russia on a scale not seen since the 2nd world war. and actually, as we speak,

the battle for douglas is underway. it has not reached its maximum scale that every day the heaviest fighting takes place in that part of the crate and more is to come. unfortunately, the battle for don't bus will remind you. and i regret the said, but this is through the battle for dollars will remind you was 2nd world war with large operations maneuvers involvement of thousands of tanks armored week else. planes artillery. this will not be a local operation based on what we see in the russia preparation, st. cremeans folks person, denise re pash cobb, has acknowledged russia has sustained significant losses of troops in ukraine, and he's called it a huge tragedy for russia. pash called,

still says that russia hopes to reach its military goals. in the coming days, the country's defense ministry reports that between one and 2000 russian soldiers have been killed, but independent estimates put the number closer to 10000. our next guest is stephanie bob's. she's a former deputy assistant secretary general of nato. miss bob's welcome to the w. thank for being with us. i want to start by asking you to your reaction to what the spokesperson there has said. well, i guess the russia leadership that doesn't have my choice of it and admitting that it has really suffered losses. much more significant losses in fact. but i guess it's part of the overall game play of the kremlin to prepare the ground for a longer term war and ukraine. and meanwhile, neo foreign ministers have been meeting in brussels. the korean foreign minister was also there. and you, me triple a bus as he needs 3 things, weapons, weapons, weapons. that was all that was on the agenda and he wants them quickly. it's not

exactly clear what nato has been providing. has there been any kind of shift in the type of weapons that the alliance has been sending ukraine from day one to now, for one nature as an organization has not provided any weapons, you know, it's out. the allies is to 30 member countries that provide the weapons and military equipment and they to doesn't even have and coordinating role. so what the secretary general has actually asked for is to, for the allies to consider providing more of the heavy military equipment that is really needed to counter a mess of land offensive. and i think this is what we're talking about and days and weeks to come. as russia has started to regroup, and we enforce its military troops in the dunbar and south of ukraine, we heard from the secretary general and stolen berg a short while ago. let's have a quick listen to what he had to say. i've been doing a lot and are determined to do more now on for to me do the

longer term to help the brave ukrainians, the firm, their homes on the country and pushed back the invading forces. ours also supporting on stepping up, are you going to turn in aid on financial support? we discussed what more we will do, including cyber security assistance to provide the equipment to help you crane protect against the chemical and biological effects. now he mentioned chemical and biological threats. if there were to be that type of an attack on ukraine, would nato's position change in any ways that the red line for nato? is there a red line for nato? well it so i personally think very wise of the allies not to identify any read lies in advance. i mean, we used to have had stories in the past for a red lines remarked and then nothing really happened. so we went away this time.

but at the same time, it's very important to do what we call a native contingency planning to prepare for case scenarios to prepare for what if scenarios. and i think this is what the allies have started to do already with regard to chemical weapons that rusher eventually may use, but also for a potential eventual of application or deployment, rather of tactical nukes. we hear quite a bit about not provoking vladimir putin. it's nito western allies have repeatedly said we can't do anything that might make the situation worse, or that this would spill over into nato territory. but it's become very clear that the criteria for what is considered provocation is very different in moscow that is in the west. so why are the countries that are part of the alliance comfortable with applying weapons to ukraine, but not doing much more? well, i think it's indeed very, very important to consider the potential consequences of any action. and this is

what the elisa doing collectively. and they have collectively decided, personally, i think, wisely. so to not push it too hard to not give, putting that much of a potential excuse to say see, i told you so nate horace egg entering a war so named her is becoming a, an active member and a party of this operation in ukraine. so let's go for it in order to avoid that, they have kept this defensive line. however, personally, i believe it's very, very wise not to always look at what mr. putting has in line, but to really focus on the way we define in our own strategies and policy goals in support of ukraine in terms of nato expansion. putin has repeatedly said that this is something that has aggravated him, but this war on ukraine has actually pushed some countries to consider nato membership. and perhaps they wouldn't have. we're talking about finland and sweden

. right. and i personally believe that we're going to see a formal application of finland, most likely also sweden at any time soon i'm not talking about was days but, but rather weeks. but i think it's remarkable how these 2 countries have changed their minds, both in terms of public opinion, but also parliamentary support for nato membership. in many ways, it's a logical step that these countries would take if they put an application, a form filled out on the table because they have been partners of, of ne, to, for so long, very valuable partners. they have provided so 1st class support for nato operations . they participated in exercises and indeed they would really, really be 1st class assets, if admitted by the allies. stephanie bob's former deputy assistant secretary general of nato. thank you very much for being with us and your insights yet. and with wicca,

ukrainians are searching through the rubble and the liberated town of world bianca, hoping to find the bodies of their loved ones for the young guy is just 70 kilometers northwest. if keep it was one of the 1st towns hit by russian shelling. after the invasion began. local authorities have estimated that 200 civilians have been killed. and locals are coming out of hiding and taking stock after nearly a month under russian occupation in the areas around keith dw. nick connelly visited the small town of booth give which found itself in the middle of intense fighting between russian and ukrainian forces. since late february, he spoke to resident, struggling to make sense of what happened to them. this is we give a small town. it's just emerging from a month and a russian occupation month in which it was on the front lines between russian and ukrainian forces. toys was sometimes just the woods,

people were children. it's as much as many residents of this ukrainian town could think of a plea to the russian troops to leave them and their families alone, as they hid in their homes to decide you. it was the same new people in this village spent 27 days without water on the 27th days without bread. we grew up on you why it was a demon his wife held out for 3 weeks until the shelling became too much to bear. and they were finally able to leave for a neighbouring village of them up when they got back of the printer, military had retaken the town, the home would be ransacked by retreating russian troops with they've got it. everything carried everything out. all that's laughter, the walls and the sofa soccer g, unless you, they've taken all the electronics. i don't even know where they put it all over. over the months they were here, the russians really changed for the worse than i'm just disgusted at the thought

that they were moving around and eating in my house. at least they didn't sleep here with the full doesn't look dollars to put in the was goodness qual, uh, they just destroyed things for the sake of it. the ceiling even at the but the impact on this community goes far beyond limited homes. locals, phyllis, they were kidnapped and detained in sellers for days on end, accused by the russians of helping the ukrainian military. several residents still missing, fear killed. a priest arrives the neighboring village with supplies for those who have lost almost everything. yeah, but it's not food or money that the locals are asking for that us, who am i and what does will put the people here need tranquilizers over many of them have lost everything with that. they spent a lifetime saving for bothers with this with their houses brought their cars. it's all gone into separate from to both shows is the damp seller when she,

her husband and her neighbors spent some of the coldest nights the you know, the truth goodness. and i agree with linda, we weren't just hearing the shelling, we could feel it. everything was shaking in. all we could do is pray that it wouldn't hit us. we just kept praying loose supplies. like these kipling woven has been going during the week sandra occupation, where or the shop stood shut, leaving home would have meant running a gauntlet, or was it that he has got us by the time you've been up and down these steps a few times you'll lose the well to do anything else to both tells us she and every one she knows has exhausted her what you can always waiting for something they can't quite define unable to ever let go mercy mister greeting used to understand what it was that people and on boss have been going through all these years stuck in their sellers. the last month has taught us what war is, is name certificate. for now, the russian army has been pushed back more than a 100 kilometers. the fear they might return suddenly, as they appeared, was never far away. german news magazine dash beagle says it has uncovered more

evidence that war. crimes were carried out by russian troops in the northern ukrainian town of boucher beagle says, germans, warren intelligence service. the bnb has monitored russian military communications in which russian troops can be heard discussing civilian killings and ukraine. the magazine says the german intelligence office has intercepted radio messages that suggest systematic targeting of civilians. it didn't provide a source for the information. joining us now, is he not? nina juergen sent you the professor of public law at the university of south hampton, in the united kingdom. she is also a judge at the kosovo specialists chambers, is you're going to send, thank you for joining us on the day. now the u. s. president joe biden and other say the killings of civilians and do are clear evidence of war crimes committed by russian forces, but there are different classifications of such crimes. how do you view the future

killings? well, if you say that different classifications possible for these crimes, so therefore cool categories of international crime have well, crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide, and then also the kindness aggression. these at events seem to bear the hallmarks of a war crime. war crime is a serious violation of international humanitarian law. so the, the law that applies them during an armed conflict and is designed to protect m civilians are those are not fighting prisoners of war and, and examples of possible war crimes include a murder, torture, and ill treatment of civilians are intentionally directing attacks against civilians and civilian objects such as some hospitals, some buildings,

and also acts such as rate even starvation use of human shields, looting or otherwise terrorizing civilian population. so these apps do seem to fit that description of possible war crime and should be investigated as such because the crime against humanity. these can occur also during peace time, but they involve widespread or systematic attack against thermos civilian population. and increasingly that does appear to be evidence that that may amount to those sorts of crimes this discussion or said perhaps of that genocide or is, is even ongoing. and genocide is a very specific crime. it requires a very narrow definition. it requires a very specific intent to, to destroy a national ethnic racial religious group. there appears as this an evidence

that seems to mount and that there, there is a risk, certainly of that, that genocide could, could occur that these, these events could escalate to the crime of genocide. ukraine has called this a genocide. what's the level of evidence that is needed for accusations of that magnitude to lead to charges? as you said, it's a very narrow definition. it is a very difficult to kind to prove because it is, it has it and our definition. and the challenge is to prove that specific intent to, to eradicate one of one of those groups through the series of underlying acts. so they don't need to be a lot of evidence gathered to, to prove that, that, that intent is there. that it's, it's a type of extreme discrimination that,

that then leads to actually have a desire to, to eliminate a group. so that's a difficult crime to, to prove. because there are instances where it has been proven in court, for example, in relation to events in the land, in 1094, it's river nature in bosnia. so it's a high standard, but there have been cases of where genocide has been proven. we've heard from the cranium president vladimir zalinski, his bow that those behind the slaughter of ukrainians must be brought to justice and the one person we're all looking at and wondering about as vladimir putin. he's the one sitting in moscow giving the orders. but what kind of evidence is required to link him to the crimes being committed in ukraine today? so again, that, that's the challenge to am, to find the evidence that will link him said to link that of events through the chain of command. so am someone in that position of

a rather remote perpetrate potential and perpetrator who is not physically there and sort of involved in events on the ground. so it's necessary to find the evidence to, to build up that, to that link because there are different ways of doing that. the different modes of, of liability to, to hold perpetrators to, to account. so it, it could involve, and the notion such as a known as a command responsibility of superior responsibility and where someone can be held to account for failing to prevent or punish the crimes that that occur. if that person seemed to have effective control of the forces, are there other other methods? so responsibility actually ordering such such conduct or, or being part of a, a group of people with a common name. so a common enterprise to carry out these crimes. but it's,

it's proving all the stages. so to link someone at the, at the very top and to those events on that, on the ground that, that it's challenging. again, not, not impossible. it has been done in international criminal proceedings before it has been done before. so what is the likelihood band that the russian president is brought up for? the icbc said that it's more likely if he's not in power and it, well, it would be yes more and more likely am if there is no longer in power. so a former former head of state, it's challenging, of course, do to bring her a serving, had a state before a course of the i c c. so it's it, this, the precedence where serving heads the state have been an indicted or there's been an arrest warrant, i'm out for them. but the fit for example,

and the case of charles taylor who was liberian former president, charged with crimes committed in neighboring sierra leone. and it was after it was no longer empower that he was then brought to trial, of course it to, to actually apprehend. and someone in such a leadership position is again, very, very challenging. so it is not, not certain, even if someone is no longer empower. and there's a change of regime that, that, that person would end up be before a court such as the i, c, c. and certainly it could take a very long time, it sometimes takes a long time for, for justice to, to catch up with those 2 hurts and wanted by an international tribunal the length of time that these types of cases require certainly top of mind right now as we watch these are atrocities unfold in the ukraine in a organ, then

a professor of public law in the united kingdom. thank you very much for your time . the united nations general assembly has voted to suspend russia from its human rights council. the resolution was brought forward by the united states and it condemned the gross and systematic violations and abuses of human rights by russian troops and ukraine. russia called the decision politically motivated and illegal. moscow continues to claim without proof that evidence of a massacre of civilians in the keeps suburb of boucher was stage 2 more from that of most more. as invading russian forces regroup for an expected, renewed campaign and eastern ukraine, nato is warning of possible escalation in the kind of weaponry used. secretary general yen stroke berg has warned that any use of chemical weapons in russia's war

on ukraine could have far reaching consequences. as devastating as russia's military assault on ukraine has been, the west is warning the kremlin, that waging war with chemical, biological, radiological, or nuclear weapons, would be a game changer, potentially drawing nato territory into the conflict zone. it will affect the people in ukraine, but there's also a risk that will have a daughter effect on people living in nate, the congress recalls her. oh, we can see contamination. we come through the spread of and chemical agents or biological weapons. moscow pledged not to do this under the chemical weapons convention. it ratified in 1997, which also required russia to destroy it stockpile. but since then, kremlin agents have poisoned at least 2 critics. with nova took a soviet era nerve agent banned under that agreement. but that doesn't require

large quantities of the substance. so today whether or not he would, could, russian president vladimir putin use such weapons to stage a significant attack. and so do we really think that there's widespread ability to do chemical warfare on a battlefield? don't think so, dan casita is a prominent expert in chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear substances and agents called c b r n. he says moscow did verifiably eliminate virtually all its chemical weapons capability under the chemical weapons convention and has probably not invested in rebuilding it in part because it's not that useful. there might be one hour or less on a particular day at a particular time. you know, in a spot where chemical worker actually is more useful than a conventional weapon. but that hasn't start to nato from supplying ukraine with detection kids and protective gear. and for the 1st time ever activating special rapid response units to combat possible c,

v r n attacks on alliance territory. but it is not the only entity doing contingency planning. the european union has reportedly agreed to stock pile equipment and medicines throughout the block. and here in belgium, even local hospitals are preparing for the worst case scenario, about an hour from nato headquarters grant university hospital. just held a refresher session on treating victims of c v r n attacks. we do not know if at some point we could be under attack and, and we, we could have a victims in belgium had emergency nurse, steve dugger says procedures for potential mass casualties from c, b r n. were initially intensified in the wake of the islamic state linked terrorist attacks on belgium in 2016. now they're being fine tuned to potentially treat patients evacuated from ukraine's war zone. or in case belgium becomes one doctor says the teen takes the threats in stride. what would really rickety mouth is that

if you were to say, hey guys, in half an hour we are getting someone who is a been involved in a dirty bomb. we don't know what it is yet, but i've got a suit here. you have to take it on and we'll just go ahead with it. we think it's best to be to be prepared. trying to be ready for every possibility in vladimir putin's playbook. that was the day and as ever the conversation continues online. you'll find us on twitter. i dw news, i'm abby club, austin on behalf of our producers, paul hurst and ryan. alan, thanks for being with us. bye for now. ah ah,

with with to the point. strong opinions, clear positions, international perspectives. brushes, pull back north of care has brought relief, but harbor as indications of a civilian bath, the car come to light will be apparent, more crime condensed germany to embargo russian fossil fuels find out on to the to the point d. w

is the end of the pandemic in sight. we show what it could look like. return to normal. and we visit those who are finding it difficult with success. i, you know, weekly copays 19 special good night special. in 60 minutes on d w. oh. listen carefully, don't know how with miss to the ago. ah, feel the magic discover the world

around you. subscribe to d w documentary on youtube. russia is pulling back its forces north of ukraine's capital, but that has brought horror rather than relief as indications of a civilian massacre come to light. the devastating images from the town of butcher indicate that proteins forces murdered hundreds of civilians before withdrawing that sparking new calls for harsher sanctions, including an embargo on brush and fossil fuels. so far, germany's been resisting, fearing massive harm to an economy, highly dependent on fresh and gas. the predicament is prompting a new look at.