he wasn't, it was women, especially as victims of violence in a lot of take part and send us your story. we are trying always to understand this new culture. so you are not a visitor, not a guests. you want to become a citizen. in so migrants your platform, reliable information. ah hello and welcome to another edition of the 77 percent. this is where we young park, the issues that are important to young africans. my name is michael o t to there. sure. it's all about bet. dwindling revenues following the cove at 19 pando make hub force, many young people to take hard loans. the lenders range from banks to loan apps and the dreaded launch shocks. while some i west indies loans in verbal businesses.

others use them to cover busy costs like rent, clothes, food, or even gifts for ya, lovers are very on it. kimani is on the ground in nairobi to find out how been buried under a mountain of bit impacts. young people was futures ah, the 77 percent is back in a row, be kanyes capital. and it is here that as of april last year we were told that 14000000 loan accounts had been blacklisted by what we call the credit reference bureau. these are the people who basically determine whether or not to get credit. and for those people, they're at risk of either not getting financial services at all or getting limited access to credit. as our question to day is, is it fair to lock out people from money knowing full well, they might not have any other option. so we're going to start with emanuel, who is really a representation of what most unions experius been caught up in the dead cycle. so

emmanuel in 2019 before cove. if you had a job as a waiter and then 2020 happened covina, you lost your job unfortunately, and i'm sorry. and then you decided life is too tough. i need to borrow money. so where did you go? i went to to bang to borrow 222 and 7000 just to pay for my rent and pay for some food stuff. and when you went to the bank, what did you say you wanted the money for? well, you honest that you wanted to use this money for rent? no, i just bought the money money to pay for some vacation. so use you like it to pay for because i need the money that more. yeah, you are desperate sir. okay, i understand that eric, you are in a similar situation, right. tell me what was the constance is lead you to borrow 2 because i needed to do my stuff. you shall establish old routine breakfast for lunch, things lay credit for and you know? yeah, you of your girlfriend there you have. you have your girlfriend there. you are borrowing

to take care of your girlfriend. no, you know if you don't perform she lives. so you had to do everything. comerica harvey, i was not expecting this conversation to go like that. so. so where did you, where did you borrow money from? i bought it from friends. uh huh. i borrowed from this apps on mobile mobile apps. yeah. is there some that give loans? cheap cheap loans. in the india, how much debts did you have accumulated at a lot of dep lake? 9000 to him program. and how did you pay back i for to dazzling when they walked came back. okay. well, that's interesting because what these 2 gentlemen are telling me is quite honestly surprising. the statistics from the digital lenders association of kenneth here says that people borrow money primarily to invest in their businesses and then education, but not necessarily for recurrent expenditure. yeah, because you, when the lending market, the financial sector, you find that

a and what you really saying is, is very true. people will not be honest with verizon for boring. i want to been buy a cobra, come i and say i want to buy a plot. i want to go and build some structures at home. my roof went off, i want to repair it. but basically in most of the loans that are consumer based loans, basically the good to recurrent expenditure and most claims because those loans do not generate income, then then defaulted, they're not paid. so basically you start choosing up after people who borrowed loans from you and basically put them into explained its way close by for these nothing that you get out of which that money is consumed, you have a head to go to be ok. so let's come to the ladies here because you're both entrepreneurs and also relying on credit from banks, from maybe some of these mobile apps that we're hearing, only when you are borrowing money to your business. yeah. did you lie about why you needed the money? first of all, i didn't even worried a bank because i did, you know, for you to wear a bank, you have to deposit in a bank, your cash flow statements in and out. mean the type of loan you get,

but not starting my business child. your 1st day of school like way moving money. so my 1st thought was i don't want to go to my parents and like dad, mom friends, give me money, something called lending ups. and then there's so many that i can start with. no one knows me. you know, none of my problems, i can start from there. so i personally relied so much on lending up and what i learned to use them wise, fibbed in the lending ups, the more the lord middle of increase. so that's how i started my business and that's, that's how you've been lending us to be. would you credit the success of your business? right, keep the capital injection to credit. yes, i would because when you're fresh from school, you're usually toil. please leave your money. you know, pocket money, but you don't see the essence of that and to give you new school. so if it is school and you're like, ok, i'm not necessarily getting a job. where can i get capital? so you can go back to a parent whose could you for, for good job and the legs that give me more money. so you would literally started

learning the ropes and you realize, oh, so they'd lending ups and i personally would say they worked for me because i was able to find my business is especially operating expenses with the lending out. okay, let me come to tony here for a 2nd because we're hearing that family and friends actually constitute the 2nd largest majority of where we get a credit form. this was astounding to me that before you go to a bank, you go 1st to a 3rd party who is until december unregulated and then you go to your family and friends and you're saying, oh, we need to regulate this space as well. talk to me about that. yeah, over the last 10 years, digital ended up having started and can and we have the largest number of lending ups per capita on the planet. most difficult crazy. is that the regulatory framework for it? we 7 years too late, and i also think that when over the last 7 and a half years when finished up showed up, it's when it moved from family and friends and then institutional exactly john

miles and banks to finish up. so it's a very young culture and looking around as social media and the consumers in culture, we have k b s can be statistics has only 17 percent of the people between the ages of 20 percent. that if you have a business that makes them any form of money. so a lot of the businesses you're talking about, we're talking about live in them. a lot of young people who are businesses are not making any profit. so when you have a 60 or 90 day credit system where you get your money from and that's what we're trying to try to set up and found it, we're trying to make it so that you can be able to borrow from friends, family, and colleagues, and have a credit rating system between partner, so they hold on hold on, hold on. so you're saying that you and i have friends, tony, right, and i borrow money from you. and so this will create a credit system for me where our friends will see edith is not trustworthy, please don't lend money, right? and that's the reason why i think for me that the reason why i sense, because it's that tagline is fun for friends by friends. currently, the interest rates on average and cannot 24 percent for any money,

but 24 percent is the average of any money borrowed. and usually when you're going anything, the chance of you getting a 24 percent return on that investment, it's upset, doesn't matter what you invest in gold to try. it doesn't work in a 30 day period. yes. so how do you expect people in the country, the middle income, like the friends here to come up with a and of captain, you want them to come up? it's not period of time, but amongst our friends, we have a much more soft up value system between people. we've grown up as an african community where we say everything. i mean, we do want to toggle and below that child is brought up by a village or a family. and by taking that situation, leverage one technology to be able to create a credit scores around each other. i know you can lend me, you know, up to 7000 shillings. and because you, my friend, i have an interest in a 3rd party interest in keeping our relationship going. and so do i with our community or friends, the, the high chance i'll pay you back. ok, let's come back to eric because obviously eric, you are not worrying from your friends. you are boring from these mobile lender that we're talking about digital lenders, and you go in there, you put in

a couple of details. boom. they have all your information and you have your 2000 shilling. if you don't give them this money on time, what happens? okay, they take you then send you a couple of messages from your phone. even i stopped using one with one of me now mobile number because of the. now they're sending me messages. they're sending me to just reminding me to pay to pay. yeah. so even i, i through my line. okay. you man, you have you had a similar experience with people. well, you know, calling calling you threatening you with things. what was the experience when it came to the collection of that you did most of the friends that live with their money, the stuff to handle them. because some of them were angry, telling you that the money has been long since they oh do. i owe you money, so if they are coming out, they picked elevation. so it was your friends who are actually coming to your house to take items that will of significant value in order to repeat them. so now up

them on. yeah, that must have been very painful and hurt to have been for about to can do anything because you are them and you told them that the money and giving them the money. i'd like to come to maria so that i can hear what you wanted to say earlier. we were talking about what some might say, a predatory lending practices and also provide 3 recovery practices. is this something that you've experienced? yeah, actually i my 1st loan, i took it through sherlock and after taking that money that money, it wasn't specifically for they took quite the way she looked into the context is what we were talking about and regulated creditors, they normally give a loan on a prospecting taking something from you. so when i took that money was to buy a phone, and then i shifted into another location because they don't want them to find me and then they changed my number. so right now, i also have to go to this unregulated person, instead of going to a bank or to a circle with mr. washington. when you go to a bank,

you need to be having an account fair and a bank to give you a loan. it's very hard because now you have to have sort of connection with them. so say you could just go and tell that person, you know what man, i'm stranded and they need money. they tell you that to have you need to have a guarantee or place something that when i be that, so it's easy, it's accessing success right washington. i want to come back to you because we are hearing words that i'm sure any lender doesn't want to hear like i lied, it's easy, it's accessible. i have no intention of being. in fact, i skipped tone. but the amount you're paying now is almost 3 times the principal amount is not moral for you as a person who's working in a circle to have lent me 2000 shilling and to have now collected 6000 and still be demanding more on that to 1000 principle i shall look is puzzling who is not regulated, it is sort of illegal to do say, looking, and that is why you see some of these companies are suddenly studying unlimited companies to be able to use it other plus work lead money. so there is

a way that interest literally locate and become so huge, even moral above whatever you borrowed is because it's not regulated. but when you come to regulated organizations, lexical is in bunk, then you cannot judge me. if i bought 2000, i cannot be more than 4000, but then of the day we'll see the reason why we find the young people in the saker of debt is one telling of how we manage our social life. basically. because which way are you talking about people boring for assumption is because i went out in the, in the, the, in c j and taking a good meeting. i don't want to feel good about it and i hope i don't have the cash . but i mean, that's not entirely fail only here. and maria have spoken of how they're taking to invent the boring to invest. not everybody's boring for consumption of the thing. sometimes our budget are not realistic. we sometimes become ambitious, and we've learned, learned the skill of studying small and growing. we want to them set of business today to they have a small business to more. i'm banking millions of money. they don't tell me what's your, what's your point of why people say look,

send people come and beat them up is because both the lender and the borrower completely unprotected, there's no regulation that guides and protects the lender, which there should be. and there's no regulation that god's input to the borrower, which should be if you're going to borrow that 2000 shilling like the gentleman man rooted, and you have 30 days to pay back or $60.00 days to pay back for 90 days to be back . can we just look at the average minimum wage in this country and figure out how you're going to come up with that money because that's why he's living us. and we probably talked to washington. he explains elaborately how, when you have more lenient and long term payment procedure, suckers of zachary often do they have a much higher return rate and a lot of money, a lot more people paying that debt because life happens. i want to come back to just for a 2nd, because i think basic economic theory states that a person who lives money must be prepared to not get back in return, should the lenders, the washington's of this world. a few, some degree of risk and therefore the question of you have to pay your debt. is it really accurate? we are living in

a formal extraction is kind of like an academic system. look at the government, the government extract, whereas the citizen expect services that the cost of living will go down as much as you're paying high taxes. and that's the more that the government has been using. but what have you been finding is that the mythics drug. whereas the citizen does not receive services, so the citizen has to go into their pocket so that they can be able to afford the basic livelihood agenda. i totally understand that, but he doesn't answer my question, which is knowing all this then fair to expect that the same you will, whether or not they bought that money for their girlfriend to be able to pay back the credit it follow the same extraction button right so the citizens, apple, independent of the government, is an easier way they're going there. we know in the intention of being the obligation that comes with their boarding of these, of this loan. i like that for that. if you reduce just like selection is model,

if only i can said tony, i'm coming to you, please don't run away because i could hear you me and i'm, i'm being in the background. i think the 2 parts to it. yeah. naming of government and constantly shifting blame to someone else has its limitations. it's true. we are unexceptional economy, it's too efficient. skyrocketed in your right and seeing our parents, i mean more than we pound for pound or shilling for selling. but there's a couple of things that we also need to change and 2 of them are, we understand that in a consumer culture, you have a nice one. why do i have to have a night for the concept is to be called to use my texting whatever if i can, but get something for, you know, $150.00 instead of company 4000 dollars. i should do that. we don't do that. the 2nd thing is i think there's a lot of misinformation and just general lack of knowledge and comes to financial management. a lot of the fintech obs including psychos and banks and financial institutions. they are very good at lending, but very bad educating. so if we know people are lying about how can we improve that? so tony, speaking of that leads me to only because education seems to be

a key thing that's coming out here. do you think people had more knowledge that would make less risky loan? you know, when i finished school and then i entered adulthood, i quickly realize that they so much that could you teach he left for me, didn't tell me taxes, it didn't get to me hard to manage my money. he didn't teach me how to survive adulthood. and i don't know until i know, and this is the obvious. and that's when i quickly read to you tube. so i'm looking for people to like, teach me these things. and i realized no one da flat. and sift to say that's when i started my channel because i'll like, okay, no one is telling me fin, no one is telling me how to survive. let me create my youtube channel and whatever i learn, i'm going to share. and that's what i'm saying in the process. i realize, you know, a name and i, when i did my video for how to burn, i learned from m friday and people were excited to learn. and i was explaining to them from guys, this is a tums. if you don't pay, the interest rate goes up and if you, if you missed a $30.00 day period,

they'll extend your loan for another 30 days. and if you don't pay a percentage of it, intrusive, and everyone's like, oh, i didn't know the university of youtube seems to be a popular object. yeah, but one of the risks for this, because obviously not everything that's on youtube is credible. ah, you, it's up to you or yeah, because i might like less must credit the fact that information is easy to get now . like, you know, our parents, i think they had to would libraries or they had to depend on what the price of 2 of them are. what of mouth. but for me and you need to buy 10 m b's. and i'm going to go to google, read a gazillion articles and trust to me it if, if you read like 10 articles about lead lending, i mean you should kind of know what to expect. okay, let me come to eric because you have the capacity of mind to be like, i'm not paying this debt and you knew how to escape your lenders. so you also knew what the consequences would be. did you are? you didn't, you said you didn't care now that you do, do you think you would borrow differently or doesn't education not matter if you're

desperate, you're desperate. tell me. yeah. it's depends. now i cannot tickets. just like the last time i took it, because i don't know at the the loan that i threw out the lame a dinner. they took my name one or my mom. i don't know. they've been give to me on sierra b o. b blacklisted me. and i don't know, joshua let me come back to you. they something that an olive has said, you know, and it keeps coming back to what tony has had the sense of community. we have intrinsic knowledge of how to do this. why then is it that when it comes to formal debt, it's usually associated with violence, you know, literally going to somebody's house and taking away their property. personally, i'm looking at both both parties, the person that is lending you money, they're spending so that they can lend you money. so it doesn't make any sense that if they get into a contractual a goodman to do that, you fulfill this and they fulfill my part of the obligation. come on, joshua, let's not kid each other. we've just heard that people are using text messages,

calling you employers to harass you, but by that's what you got into when you agreed to the terms of the engagement that you got into. if a contract no. the family? no, no, no, i'm hearing no, let me hear from 21st and then i'll come to you olive. no, no, no, no, no. tony says on norway only got flu in our data protection act. every single individual from having their phone scraped in their details used for anything but without clients, without consent. and even when they ask you for consent, they still cannot use your data against you. they can use your data for creating credit score systems or anything like that. the can check all of these things, but no one should be allowed and no one can be allowed to come and use your information against you to call your mom or your best friend or your husband or your wife. it's illegal, flat out. simple. great. let's hear from all if you're saying a back to the point for joshua that no, no, no, no, no, you have absolutely no right whatsoever to get into my private business to try and extract your finances. no, and i think about it gave me one. i think about if most of because i might be able,

as olive to our cut and peer that long mean 30 days, but can everyone. okay, so we're going back to the original question or is it fair and to whom? alright, so we had the consequences earlier washington, i'm coming to you. we had earlier from maria about one of the unintended consequences of being in bad debts. what are some of the other consequences that you are not finding themselves in these debt? willingly they're being pushed to that corner, right. if i bought from you as a beef, you gonna shame me. you, you are in a sudden was up grub and as a, i don't know, he doesn't even where you or me, but then what you're talking about. i don't want that ship for a but and she said these people do not know. so i better go to fintech that doesn't know me, i'm biting behind of it. i am boring behind a real. but to win this will get uncovered. now it becomes very but, and that is, that is one way the government has come to introduce an ignition so that i little the b even if it is a fintech. it to use this formal and legal ways to be able to collect this man. oh yeah, by the way, i think it's really important for us to save this that the government of kenya

recently as recently as december of 2021 actually regulated the digital lending space by amending a central bank bill. so back to the point of consequences. another one could be are some other things that people get into trying to money to be on it. sometimes we've seen families break up reason being as, as a husband my wife went and borrowed from a fintech or maybe from some other shy look. so the shell comes into the house or my up bridged the refrigerator lativia and it's picked. i don't find it in the house. what happens? where did the tv go? and she is in pain. st explained that as a look somewhere took the freedom to get for that, but then what happens, people get into depression. people killed themselves in this country because of dead people have run away from the house. these people have done so many bad things because of the consequences of being in debt. so it's a real social issue. it is a for sure. okay. and it is growing and grew washington. thank you so much for that . but now i'd like to hear solutions and tony, i'm inclined to come to you 1st because you already have one of them,

which is regulation of even the most informal spaces or one of ideas. do you have to control this debt appetite as washington so, well, put it. what we're doing a tribe is not the answer to every problem for sure. but we feel like there's a power in peer to peer lending and saving, but allows everybody to be involved in everybody else's finances. i have a stick in the manual success. yeah. and so if he gets into a situation, i'm happy to keep giving him and giving him and giving him if he is my boy, because his winnings my winning. but if you do a fintech up, it's all gonna work the same way. is going to be focused on the interest rates and how much money can get from him. so i think one of the 1st ways to improve the situation we're in now is to include everyone in the conversation to bring community back into finances. let's come to the educator on solutions. my 1st solution, e is books, are the 2nd one i literally point across eas, google or youtube, or information in general. if books are not your thing, right, just go to google and decide every money. i'm going to do such 10 articles,

about boring 10 articles, about managing money to not coven high, can properly skill my assets will increase my income. and then the final one at the point across is mindset. oh, my thought is a bit troubling because you boy, and just like hulu and your goddess and then we come back and say s am, you are not doing well or all these things are not doing well. so again, the mindset needs to change a bit. let's on up to yes, i didn't have money i borrowed, but can i also have the respect to at least paid, but yeah, great. yeah. let me come back to the site. joshua, i'd like you to show what you're sharing here with, with washington solutions, please. to day you are one sickness away to become a poor pass yet. so. so here some of my recommendation the government should invest in those social protection programs that specifically focus on the youth. all right, so the government, instead of, you know, getting all these

a youth social petition plans issue, consolidated them to even save on the course of admission of this fun. great, and accommodate as many you. so you're saying consolidate these funds, make it one central social, let's make it one social net for, for women, for, for the youth. washington very quickly. solutions are one of the solutions i think is a winkle kit, or cultural of property management for resources. because sometimes eve of through that a bit of experience where people are boring for not very good reasons. so i think from a very tender age, as, as, as parents and people are growing up, we need to in culture, the culture of financial management and ourselves. so that we, when, when it comes to boring bicycle, you cannot revenue from that. but when you're boring, you're boring for the right papa. yeah, you're boring. want to contribute to repeat bro, within your means. and also we need to learn how to live within our means. and finally, eric, what do you think it will take for youth? who are your friends, who are in your community to stop taking bad debts as you've been told? the 1st reason i think is to take them reasonable learn. no, not for your girlfriend, as you said earlier, a go for did and 2nd,

we'll take information. you have information about sticking loans, did you find the city conversation useful, dietary fantasy? well, thank you so much. this has been such a wonderful and inciteful debate. i've learned so much, it's felt a little bit like an economic class. i don't know how you felt, but if there's anything i've learned is that it's not that clear cut is debt any comic issue or a social one. to be honest, i still don't know, but i know that i'm thankful that you're watching a santa santa i dad was brutally honest. and for me, i opened, and i hope you've learned something from this debate because i certainly have and thanks to everyone who participated and share your views with us, that is our show for this week. for more of these debates, check out our youtube and instagram pages. we've made them just for you. and if you

are still dreaming of the big machines and checks window bows, only 2 people can guarantee you that will leave you with peter and paul, acquaint it a, a p square. they call this song fun collette. my name is mike fluti. thanks for watching a problem. blue. ah, ah, ah ah ah

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