ah, in 45 minutes on d w. how about taking a few rings? you could even take a chance on what i, raring to. ah, don't expect a happy ending. literature list 100 german. ah. hello and welcome to another edition of the 77 percent. this is where we unpacked the issues that are important to young africans. my name is mighty to their shaw is all about debt dwindling revenues following the cove at 19 panoramic hub force many young people to take out loans. the lenders range from banks to loan apps and the dreaded loan sharks. while some i west indies loans in

verbal businesses, others use them to cover busy costs like rent, clothes, food, or even gifts for ya, lovers are very on it. kimani is on the ground in nairobi to find out how being buried under a mountain of bit impacts. young people's futures. ah, the 77 percent is back in a row, be kanyes capital and it is here that as of april last year, we were told that 14000000 loan accounts had been blacklisted by what we call the credit reference bureau. these are the people who basically determine whether or not to get credit and for those people, they're at risk of either not getting financial services at all or getting limited access to credit. and so our question to day is, is it fair to lock out people from money knowing full well, they might not have any other option. so we're going to start with emanuel, who's really a representation of what most kenyans experius been caught up in the dead cycle. so

emmanuel in 2019 before cove. if you had a job as a waiter and then 2020 happened covina, you lost your job. unfortunately, and i'm sorry, and then you decided life is too tough. i need to borrow money. so where did you go? i went to to bang, to borrow 22 and 7000. just to pay for my rent and pay for some food stuff. and when you went to the bank, what did you say you wanted the money for? well, you honest that you wanted to use this money for rent? no, i just bought the money money to pay for some vacation. so use you like it to pay for sucrose? i need the money that more. yeah, you were desperate sir. okay, i understand that eric, you are in a similar situation. right. tell me what was the constance's led you to borrow it? of course i needed to do my stuff. you shall establish old routine breakfast for lunch. things lay credit for and you know? yeah. you have your girlfriend there. you have to. you have your girlfriend there.

you are borrowing to take care of your girlfriend. no, you know if you don't perform she lives. so you had to do everything. comerica, harvey, i was not expecting this conversation to go like that. so. so where did you, where did you borrow money from? i bought it from friends. uh huh. i borrowed from this ups on mobile mobile apps. yeah. is there some that give loans? cheap cheap loans in the india. how much debt did you have accumulated a lot of dep lake. 9000 to him program. yeah. and how did you pay back? i for to dazzling when they walked came back. okay. well that's interesting because what these 2 gentlemen are telling me is quite honestly surprising. the statistics from the digital lenders association of kenneth here says that people borrow money primarily to invest in their businesses and then education, but not necessarily for recurrent expenditure. yeah, basically you, when the lending market in the financial sector, you find that and,

and what you wanna leasing is, is very true. people will not be honest with the reason for boring. i want to been buy a cobra, come and say i want to buy a plot. i want to go and build some structures at home. my roof went off, i want to repair it. but basically in most of the loser are consumer based loans. basically the good to re current expenditure and most time because those loans do not generate income, then then defaulted, they're not paid. yeah. so basically, substituting after people who borrowed loans from you and basically put them into expenditure, we wait to buy for these, nothing that to get out of it, that money is consumed, you have a head to call to be ok. so let's come to the ladies here. because you're both entrepreneurs and also relying on credit from banks, from maybe some of these mobile apps that we're hearing, only when you are borrowing money to your business. yeah. did you lie about why you needed the money? first of all, i didn't even worry of bank because i did, you know, for you to where a bank you have to deposit in a buck your cash flow statements in and out. mean the type of loan you get,

but not starting my business child. your 1st school, you know, like way moving my me so my 1st thought was i don't want to go to my parents and like dad, mom, friends, give me money. there's something called lending ups and can then just so many that i can start with, no one knows me, you know, none of my problems. i can start from there. so i personally relied so much on lending up and what i like to use them wise, fibbed in the lending ups, the more the lord and the mirror of increase. so that's how i started my business and that's, that's how you, belinda, us to be. would you credit the success of your business? right to use the capital injection to credit? yes, i would because when you're fresh from school, you're usually toil. please have your money, you know, save money, but you don't see the essence of that until you're finished school. so if it is school and you're like, ok, i'm not necessarily getting a job where can i get capital? so you can go back to your parents whose could you for, for good, you know,

and the legs that give me more money. so you would literally started learning the ropes and you realize, oh, so they'd lending ups and i personally would be be worked for me because i was able to find my business, especially operating expenses with the lending. okay. let me come to tony here for a 2nd because we're hearing that family and friends actually constitute the 2nd largest majority of where we get a credit form. this was astounding to me that before you go to a bank, you go 1st to a 3rd party who is until december unregulated and then you go to your family and friends and you're saying, oh, we need to regulate this space as well. talk to me about that. yeah, over the last 10 years, digital ended up having started and can and we have the largest number of lending ups per capita on the planet. most difficult crazy. is that the regulatory framework for it? we 7 years too late, and i also think that when over the last 7 and a half years when can take up showed up, it's when it moved from family and friends and then institutional exactly,

chalmers and banks to finish up. it's a very young culture and looking around at social media and consuming cars, we have k b s can be a statistic says only 17 percent of the people between the ages of $23.00. and that if you have a business that makes them any form of money. yeah. so a lot of the businesses you're talking about, we're talking about live in them. a lot of young people who are businesses are not making any profit. so when you have a 60 or 90 day credit system where you getting your money from and that's why we're trying to try to set up a found it. we're trying to make it so that you can be able to borrow from friends, family and colleagues, and have a credit rating system between partner. so they hold on, hold on, hold on. so you're saying that you and i have friends, tony, and i borrow money from you. and so this will create a credit system for me where our friends will see you, but there's not trustworthy, please don't lend money, right? and that's the reason why i think for me that the reason why it makes sense because it's the tagline is funds for friends by fence. currently, the interest rates on average and cannot 24 percent for any money,

but 24 percent is the average or any money borrowed. and usually when you're going anything, the chance of you getting a 24 percent return on that investment is upset. it doesn't matter what you invest in gold to try. it doesn't work in a 30 day period. yes. so how do you expect people in the country, the middle income, like the friends here to come up with a and of captain, you want them to come up? it's not period of time. but amongst our friends, we have a much more soft values to stem between people. we've grown up as an african community where we say everything we do to toggle and below that child is brought up by village family. and by taking that situation, leverage technology to be able to treat credit scores around each other. i know you can lend me, you know, up to 7000 shillings. and because you, my friend, i have an interest in a 3rd party interest in keeping our relationship going. and so do i with our community, your friends, the, the high chance are you back? ok, let's come back to eric because obviously eric, you are not worrying from your friends. you are boring from these mobile lender that we're talking about digital lenders, and you go in there, you put in

a couple of details. boom. they have all your information and you have you 2000 shilling. if you don't give them this money on time, what happens? okay, they take few, then send you a couple of messages from your phone. you've been using one with one of me now mobile number because of the now they're sending me messages. they're sending messages reminding me to pay to pay. yeah. so even a i through my line. okay. you manual. have you had a similar experience with people? well, you know, calling calling you threatening you with things what, what was your experience when it came to the collection of the most friends that live in the money, the stuff to handle them. because some of them will angry telling you that the money has been long since they oh do. i owe you money. so if they are coming out, they picked elevation. so it was your friends who are actually coming to your house to take items that will of significant value in order to repeat them. so now up

them on. yeah, that must have been very painful and hurt to have been about to can do anything because you are them and you told them that the money i'll give you and then the money i'd like to come to maria so that i can hear what you wanted to say earlier, we were talking about what some might say, a predatory lending practices and also predatory recovery practices. is this something that you've experienced? yeah, actually, a may 1st loan, i took it through shylock. and after taking that mind that money, it wasn't specific. only 40 took by the way shylock in this context is what we were talking about. yeah, the unregulated creditors. they normally give the lawn on our perspective or taking something from you. so in a took that money was to buy a phone and then an i shifted to another location because they don't want them to find me and then it changed me number. so i know i also have adapt for shylock boy, go to this unregulated person, instead of going to a bank or to a circle with mister washington, that when you go to a bank,

you need to be having an account fair and a bank to give you a loan, it's very hard because now you have to have some sort of connection with them. so shy loki disgruntled at my son, you know what man, i'm stranded and i need money. they tell you that her to have, you need to have a guarantor or place something that is when i re fi that. so it's easy, it's accessible, yates, accelerate, or washington. i want to come back to you because we're hearing words that i'm sure any lender doesn't want to hear like i lied. it's easy, it's accessible. i have no intention of being. in fact, i skipped town. but the amount you're paying now is almost 3 times the principal amount. is that moral for you as a person who's working in a sector to have lent me 2000 shillings and 2 have now collected 6000 and still be demanding more on that to 1000 principle. i shall look his boss on who is not regulated it's, it's sort of illegal to, to say, look, you can kinda, that is where you see some of these companies are suddenly deciding a limited companies to be able to use it as a platform to lead money so there is one way that interest lutherans,

k locates and become so huge, even moral above whatever you borrowed is because it's not regulated. but when you come to regulated organizations like psychos and bunks, then you cannot judge me. if i bought a 2000, i cannot be more than 4000, but of them of a day. we'll see. the reason why we find the young people in this score of debt is one. we are much helen's of how we manage our social life. basically because when we are you talking about people boring for consumption is because i went out in and so in the, the, in, in, in, in c, j and taking a good meal. i want to feel good about it and a hot, i don't have the cash, but i mean, that's not entirely fail only here. and maria have spoken of how they're taking to invest the boring to invest. not everybody's boring for consumption. as you're saying that sometimes our budget are not realistic. we sometimes become over ambitious, and we've learned landless keel of studying, small and growing. we want to them set our business to day to day have a small business to more am banking millions of money. they are going to tell me what your thoughts are to your point of why are people buying shylock,

send people to come and beat them up, is because both the lender and the borrower are completely unprotected. there is no regulation that guards and protects the lender, which there should be and there's no regulation that guards and protects the borrower, which there should be. so if you're gonna bar of 30000 shillings, like the gentleman emmanuel did, and you have 30 days to pay back or 60 days to be back on it this to be back. can we just look at the average minimum wage in this country and forgot? how are you going to come up with our money because that's where he's living us. and we are finally talked washington. he explains elaborately how when you have more lenient and long term payment process procedure, soccer's affairs. zachary often do they have a much higher return rate and a lot more, a lot more people paying their debt because life happens. i want to come back to just for a 2nd, because i think basic economic theory states that a person who lends money must be prepared to not get back in return. should the lenders, the washington's of this world, assume some degree of risk. and therefore, the question of you have to pay your debt. is it really accurate?

we are living in a form of extraction is a kind of mechanical economic system. oh, look at the government. the government extracts whereas the citizens expect, services are that the cost of living will go down as much as you are paying high taxes. and as the models of the government has always been using, but what have you been finding is that the well meant struct. whereas the citizen does not receive services, so the citizen has to go into their pocket so that they can be able to afford the basic livelihood dental. i totally understand that, but he doesn't answer my question, which is knowing all this then fair to expect that the same use whether or not they were that money for their girlfriend to be able to pay back the credit it follow the same extraction puts on right so the citizens are full and part of the government is an easier way going there. we know in the intention of being the obligation that comes with their boarding of this, of this loan. i like that for the tv introduce just section is model. if only i can

said tony, i'm coming to you, please don't run away because i could hear you me and i'm i'm being in the background. i think these 2 parts to it. yeah. naming of government and constantly shifting blame to someone else has its limitations. it's true, we are unable to actually economy. it's too efficient, skyrocketed in your writing thing. our parents, i mean more than we pound for pound or shilling for selling. but there's a couple of things that we also need to change. and 2 of them are, we understand that when a consumer culture you have a nice one. why do i have to have a night for the concept just to be called to use my texting whatever. if a 2nd, but get something for you know, $150.00 instead of jumping $4000.00, i should do that. we don't do that. the 2nd thing is, i think there's a lot of misinformation and just general lack of knowledge and comes to financial management. a lot of the intake apps, including psychos and banks and financial institutions. they are very good at lending, but very bad educating. so if we know people are lying about how can we improve that? so tony, speaking of that leads me to only because education seems to be

a key thing that's coming out here. do you think people had more knowledge that would make less risky loan? you know, when i finished school and then i entered adulthood, i quickly realize that they so much that could you teach he left for me, vintage me taxes. it didn't to me, hard to manage my money, didn't teach me how to survive adulthood. and i don't know until i know, and it was the obvious. and that's when i quickly read to you tube. so i'm looking for people to like, teach me these things and i realized no one bath, quiet and safe to say that's when i started my channel because i was like, okay, no one is telling me things, no one is telling me how to survive. let me put my you to china and whatever i love, i'm going to share and that's what i'm saying in the process of your life. you know, a name and i, when i did my video for how to burn, i learned from m friday and people why excited to learn. and i was explaining to them from guys, this is a tums. if you don't pay the interest rate goes up. and if you,

if you missed the 30 day period though, extend your loan for another 30 days. and if you don't have a percentage of it, intrusive, ann evans like, oh, i didn't know this. so university of youtube seems to be a popular object. yeah. but one of the risks for this, because obviously not everything that's on youtube is credible. ah, you, it's up to you or. yeah, because i might like less must credit. the fact that information is easy to get. now like, you know, our parents, i think they had to would libraries or they had to depend on what the price of 2 of them are white of mouth. but for me and you need to buy 10 and beef. and i'm going to go to google, read a gazillion articles and trust me it if, if you read like 10 articles about let lending, i mean you should kind of know what to expect. okay, let me come to eric because you have the capacity of mind to be like, i'm not paying this debts and you knew how to escape your lenders. so you also knew what the consequences would be. did you are? you didn't, you said you didn't care now that you do, do you think you would borrow differently?

or doesn't education not matter if you're desperate, you're desperate. tell me. it depends. now i cannot tickets. just like the last time i took it. because i don't know where they learned that i threw out the line a dinner. they took my name one or my mom by doing oil. if they kept me on sierra b o b blacklisted me menu, i don't know, joshua let me come back to you. they something that an olive has said, you know, and it keeps coming back to what tony has had the sense of community. we have intrinsic knowledge of how to do this. why then is it that when it comes to formal debt, it's usually associated with violence. you know, literally going to somebody's house and taking away their property. personally, i'm looking at both both parties, the person that is lending your money, they're spending so that they can lend you money. so it doesn't make any sense that if they get into a contractual engagement, to do that, you fulfill this and i forcing that part of the obligation. come on, joshua, let's not kid each other. we've just heard that people are using text messages,

calling you employers to harass you, but by that's what you got into when you agreed to the terms of the engagement that you got into. if a contract no, for family. no, no, no, i'm hearing no, let me hear from tony 1st and then i'll come to you olive. no, no, no, no, no. tony says on norway only got a king, a data protection act person, every single individual from having to phone, scraped in their details, used for anything but without contracts, without consent. and even when they ask you for consent, they still cannot use your data against you. they can use your data for creating credit score systems or anything like that. the can check all of these things, but no one should be allowed and no one can be allowed to come and use your information against you to call your mom. call your best friend or your husband or your wife. it's illegal. flat out. simple. great. let's hear from olive you're saying go back to the point for joshua that. no, no, no, no, no. you have absolutely no right whatsoever to get it to my private business to try and extract your finances. no, and i think about it guys, no one i think about if left of because i might be able as olive to our cut

in pair that lord. and in fact to dave, but come every one. okay, so we're going back to the original question or is it fair and to whom? all right, so we had the consequences earlier washington, i'm coming to you. we had earlier from maria about one of the unintended consequences of being in bad debts. what are some of the other consequences that you cannot finding themselves in these dead willingly they've been pushed to that court. great. if i bought from you as a bi, you're gonna shame me. you. you are in a sudden was up robin does a, i don't know, he doesn't even bear you or me. but there was, he was talking about. i don't want that ship for a bit. and she said, these people do not know. i better go to af intake that doesn't normally i'm being behind of it. i am boring behind of him, but to when will gets uncovered now it becomes very, but that is that is one way. the government has come to introduce integration so that i little the b even if it is a fintech, it to use is formal and legal ways to be able to collect this money. oh yeah. by the way, i think it's really important for us to save this that the government of kenya

recently as recently as december of 2021. ashley regulated the digital lending space by amending a central bank bill. so back to the point of consequences. another one could be, are some of the things that people get into trying to money to build it. sometimes we've seen families breakup reason being as, as a husband my wife went and borrowed from a fintech or maybe from some other she look. so the shell comes into the house or my upgrades are, they printed it out the tv and it's picked. i don't find it in the house. what happens? where did the tv go? and she is in best explain that. i say look somewhere, took the freedom to get for that, but then what happens, people get into depression. you off killed themselves in this country because of dead people have run away from the houses. people have done so many bad things because of the consequences of being in debt. so it's a real social issue. it is a for sure. okay. and it is growing and grew washington. thank you so much for that . but now i'd like to hear solutions and tony, i'm inclined to come to you 1st was you already have one of them,

which is regulation of even the most informal spaces. are one of ideas to have to control this debt appetite of washington. so well, put it, what we're doing a tribe is not the answer to every problem for sure. but we feel like there's a power in peer to peer lending and saving, but allows everybody to be involved in everybody else's finances. i have a stick in emmanuel success. yeah. and so if he gets into a situation, i'm happy to keep giving him and giving him and giving him if he is my boy because his winnings my winning. but if you do a fintech up, it's all gonna work the same way is going to be focused on the interest rates and how much money can get from him. so i think one of the 1st ways to improve the situation we're in now is to include everyone in the conversation to bring community back into finances. let's come to the educator on solutions. my 1st solution, e is books. the 2nd one i literally point are cross eas, google or youtube, or information in general. if books are not you thing, right? just go to google and decide every money. i'm going to do such 10 articles,

about boring 10 articles, about managing money to not coven high. can properly skill my assets will increase my income. and then the final one, a point across is mindset. oh, my thought is a bit troubling because you boy, and just like hulu and your goddess and then we come back and say s am, you are not doing well or all these things are not doing well. so again, the mindset needs to change a bit. let's on up to yes, i didn't have money i borrowed, but can i also have the respect to at least paid, but yeah, great. yeah. let me come back to the site. joshua, i'd like you to show what you're sharing here with, with washington solutions, please. to day you are one sickness. are we to become a poor pass yet? so, so he has some medical condition the government should invest in that social protection programs that specifically focus on the youth. all right, so the government, instead of, you know, getting all these

a youth social petition plans issue, consolidated them to even save on the course of admission of this fun. great, and accommodate as many you. so you're saying consolidate these funds, make it once central social, let's make it one social net for, for women, for, for the youth. washington very quickly. solutions are one of the solutions i think is a we inculcate a cultural of property management for resources because sometimes we've a little bit of experience where people are boring for not very good reasons. so i think from a very tender age, as, as, as parents and the people are growing up, we need to culture the culture of financial management and ourselves. so that when, when it comes to boring bicycle, you cannot revenue from that. but when you're boring, you're boring. for the right to papa. yeah, you're boring. what to contribute to repeat bro. within your means and also we need to learn how to live within our means. and finally, eric, what do you think it will take for youth? who are your friends? who are in your community to stop taking bad debts as you've been told. the 1st reason i think is to take them reasonable learn. no, not for your girlfriend,

as you said earlier, a go for it. and 2nd, we'll take information. you have information about picking loans, did you find? is it conversation useful? dietary fantasy? well, thank you so much. this has been such a wonderful and inciteful debate. i've loved so much. it's felt a little bit like an economic class. i don't know how you felt, but if there's anything i've learned is that it's not that clear cut is debt, any comic issue or a social one. to be honest, i still don't know, but i know that i'm thankful that you're watching a santa santa ah. that was brutally honest and for me, i opened and i hope you've learned something from this debate because i certainly have and thanks to everyone who participated and share your views with us, that is our show for this week. for more of these debates, check out our youtube and instagram pages. we've made them just for you. and if you

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