discrimination or part of everyday life. for many, we ask why? because life is diversity. make up your own mind. d. w. need for minds. russian forces have begun the 2nd phase of their war in ukraine with an expected push in the eastern don bath region. but ukrainian officials said they were confident they could hold off the offensive till now neither side is offered any hints of compromise. in fact, positions in both moscow and kia. seem to apartment my guest this week of as a unique perspective. he's nina cruz java. great granddaughter of the former soviet leader, nikita khrushchev, and she joins me this week from new york, where she is professor of international affairs at the new school. as the war goes on,

she believes the dangers arising any short forth. can you responded by short ports in it that seem what my theory is that it does seem to put in its brandy as a fed to take russia ukraine? everybody of down with him isn't the west, is the united states ready for that? for now? the mood in washington is somber. the u. s. is said to be pushing for russia is complete isolation on top of punitive economic sanctions. but would that we computed or make him even more dangerous? and what of the man himself? is he a bluffer, gambler astute politician? or ruthless bully, what was it that took him all the way to the most powerful office in russia that, and much more uncomfortable for neither for sure over welcome to conflict zone. thank you very much. as the war goes into its 2nd phase in ukraine, mister putin continues to insist that everything's going to plan. nothing could

actually be further from the truth. could it? well, we don't know what exactly the plan was. so i guess he can say anything. i mean, it does seem that the plan was to finish this war, or is they call the special military operation and then yes, can, will hands much faster, but now we are entering the 3rd month of it. and now actually, it seems to me that the final plan concentration of done yet can, will, has, seems to be beginning. but they continue to insist, as you said, it's going to plan. and also, let's remember that may, 9th, the anniversary of world war 2 victory is going to be celebrated in moscow, usually celebrated as a great parade. and so far, we were sure that the parade is still going to go on. so they will be, or it least people expect some sort of declaration of victory. whatever that

victory may mean, we don't know probably will be the, the taking over from ukraine, the city of mighty opal on think what is, what's left of it, what's left of what? exactly, i just wanted to say, i mean they've been doing what they've been going in for 2 months. so and they've been promising if any day now. so it's still any day now, but that could be by me 9. that could be that declaration of victory. i'm assuming that the plan was not to lose the. busy flagship, in the black sea, the mosque was not to lose at least 7 generals and not to have to admit to significant true losses. how far do you think the prestige of the armed forces, who suffered as a result of the setbacks? well, it suffered. i think, i mean, because we didn't, i mean one of the, i think the many horrible stupid and horrible, and crimes and mistakes that hooting has made. but one of them was actually show to

the world how incompetent russia, because everybody else before the war expected that it's, you know, it's so terrifying because russian military, so strong and, and formidable. and now we've seen that it's the world has seen that it really not . so of course, these are the cost the war. i mean, things are not going quoting to plan and it's very easy article push and really expose this kind of shortcomings that the army has. so yes, there is a lot of, there is a lot of prestige damage. but since is, you know, in russia now you can say anything except what the crumbling tells you of the ministry of defense tells you. so what kind of prestige that is they can make up any story. and really, at this point in time, i mean, you covered soviet union and then russia, they always lied. but now they just lying through a chief at all times. so nobody, supposedly, in russia, nobody knows what the truth is. and so they can claim, as i said, any victory,

they can pretend that the losses are not happening. that mosque was just a little set back and so on. we've seen reports of high ranking russian personnel arrested some now in jail. apparently, some others in the house arrest. how high is the price of failure in russia? these, those how high is put in making it? well, i think it came sort of one of the things that people were trying to really understand how that whole miscalculation happened. i mean, clearly who didn't had an idea of your credit and, and be not seen as they say government in ukraine. it was fed to him by his security apparatus, people who are responsible, proclaim stein for clandestine intelligence. and since now we know for sure that nobody expected that one, nobody even thought that it could be that remarkably stupid to go in invade in

other countries in front of the eyes of the whole world. so he was fat that kind of mythology of ukrainians, wanting to join with the russians because they don't want to turn to the west of some such so we know that that happened and now there, but there's also not really reliable information in some say that 1000 of high level, mid level officials were being either removed or being under house arrest. we don't know exactly that that's happening. i mean, they're still said a surely go. the defense minister is kind of randomly showing in public and we don't really know whether it's him showing a public or some footage some footage from the past. so the rumors are bad. they are a lot of purges going on, but we still didn't have the evidence of that. on the other hand, as you know, the russian government so secretive that we would mil, wow, when it is already too late. and this people are either imprisoned or prosecuted

for those failures and in ukraine. but we haven't gotten to that step yet when we know exactly what, what is going on. but courage is certainly either already happening or will be happening soon enough. and that creates the danger of some pretty powerful enemies for putin doesn't that i suppose having changed the constitution he set to stay in power for what up to another 14 years. that's plenty of time for resentments to build up within the system. isn't it? isn't there always a risk in one party states, but the administration turns into a kind of pressure. coca in danger of exploding from over pens of intrigues frustrations and hatreds inside it. are there any signs of that so far? so far? no, but you said 14 year is a is a long time so no, so far and not at all. in fact, it's interesting that that when the invasion happened, there was a lot of shock even,

and we know it the security council meeting on february 21st and supposedly closest confidence it was broadcast for everybody to see. we've just been shock and horror and the cleanser stein official, the head of the cleanser, stand all creations. now not the skin. again, that is skin was the one who just couldn't. he was staring all the time because he couldn't believe what's happening. but then they figured it out very quickly, they're well around the flag. and it's a very unpopular thing to say here in america. but, you know, not the sanction so far, but, but the absolute ostracism is basically an economic cultural humanitarian. any other war on russia and the russians, in fact, help to unite, put in to unite people. and he's a lease right now around around the kremlin, precisely because they have no other future in the west to all the future is now in russia. so they have to, they have to behave. so in some ways it was almost 8 k g,

b in order k g b by their security middle level gray, upper right chick. who with put in the head against those like marriage can or some other hardliners who would still understand who still understood that russia relations to the west, even if it is not a partnership. but some sort of competition still was absolutely important. so i do think that maybe resenting, will build in 14 years or in maybe even less years. but so far, even without putting the k g b, i call it sort of, it is a collective term. the security apparatus controlling apparatus is going to continue. they're not going to give up power or what i want to look a little later if we mirror the effect of some of the sanctions on russia, which you've just alluded to, and how that might affect putin's standing. but as the war goes on, we've seen these allegations of war crimes piling up. we're seeing what the un

cause credible allegations of rape summary executions, civilian deportations. how do you account for these other troops instructed to do as they like of a of a promised impunity? well, that, i mean, you know, is a russian, we're not, we could be very violent. i know that is a russian, but i myself am shocked of how, how completely criminal this this behavior has been. and what i also learned, and actually the outlet medusa, which was declared for an agent. now, most of the independent outlets in russia are writing about russia, declare the for an agent, that is, it don't provide credible information and so on. they've done a lot of investigation about this and it's just absolutely heartbreaking and shocking to see that that, that evidence. but what also is lauren? at least what i learned from the dues and others,

is that it depends on who was in charge of because the troops were moved over time because that war was shock. it seems to me even to the military, the way it has been, it's been conducted because they didn't know when exactly they would go and how far they would go in and so on and so forth. so was conducted. i mean, the preparation was a very cleanser stein operation in a sense, and so the troops will move to, for example, the most brutal of them is the chechen battalions. and we've seen the president of chechnya adams on a bit of can been talking about completely elimination of, you know, the nazi ukrainian is altogether going all the way. there is also another troops of russian guy goes guardia also. supposedly they actually who is in charge of bad. i mean they, they respond directly to him. they will also the ones who just eliminated everything . so it depends on what the troops were. so, but what it shows is that complete discombobulated enough of the or organization of

this war. so people or troops actually acted as they please, depending on the low level, low level commanders without very without high level or it is organizational structure at all. professor cruz over, you've met demon putin. where does he fit into the spectrum of russian and soviet leaders more irrational, more national, more unpredictable. how does he fit into the scheme of thank you. i met him long, long time ago. so it was a little put in, as we say young put in a baby fujen. i met him when he was just the prime minister in 99. so he had 22 years to grow up and to become, to become the person that we talk about all the time today. well, actually, she seemed to be rather tactically calculating, and we saw it in georgia in 2008 when he responded to the house,

actually been president to bone skin valley with very quick operation, enjoy band in crimea, and 2014 sending little green man annexing crimea, but doing it without too much black being dropped. so now this seems to be just completely off the cliff because it seems to be strapped strategic decisions. but, you know, russians are never good at strategy there, you know, put in was good tactics. so it is kind of an interesting thing and suddenly he fell off the cliff and showed that he was completely ready to basically not only destroy ukraine, take down russia with him, but also damage the world in the process, which is a bit shocking from when, when you're saying it doesn't sound as though he's the kind of man, your great grandfather might have found much of a use for you. well, i mean, it is interesting, auroras enforcer perhaps. right, that,

that whole crisis with ukraine early on was compared to the cuban missile crisis that they sort of stood next to the brain and then they're going to pull out the way christian kennedy did in 1962. and so is, you know, crucial reputation that he's very, he was very, they could be rash, he could be excitable. he was kind of, he could be very bombastic. and now when i'm looking at putting and this separation think wow christian was just then comparing to what happened in ukraine. now we're so past the cuban missile crisis, which was resolved in 13 days when the world really got to the brink of a potential destruction. so now clearly put in is not stop, but i think which is a role more than what i'm looking at is the union drop of you remember the k g b had for me any many years old eating for sending when the soviet union was threatened or the system was threatened in 56. i'm hungry. in 68 in czechoslovakia

than in afghanistan with janice. then in 79, he was the big advocate of sending troops and defending in existential and existential state of the soviet union. so put in seems to be taking cues from batman. i will go to the background looking and put his background in his time in the k g b. they don't seem to have been very impressed with him today. if he's been on the fast track, he would have been sent to the west, but he got east germany instead, which wasn't much of a consolation prize, was it if you were in the foreign department of the k g b? well, i mean, you know, he still was sent abroad, so that's, that wasn't bad either a, but he was just a lieutenant colonized and they were some other people who were in pushes and to rush, for example, there gave and off who was many times his various jobs held in the put in administration and was defense minister. he was told he was lieutenant general and

was kind of a question as to why the grade putin became became the president. why the tall and, and quite impressive, even off if i did not. so it is, it, it, it has been a very big question, but i think on drop of, he holds kids. i said he holds key to who does behavior because only, and then drop and put in because andrew was the key to be had and put in was the head of the f as b, the successor to k g b for a little bit. and then both in charge of the whole country in, during this 2 administrations, this to leaders, the soviet union undone, drop of, and russia under put to really became a k g, b state, a security state that has never happened under any ident administration. even understand and there was still a separation between, between security and prosecution and, and the state right. up until february, the 24. if you didn't believe protein was going to attack you crane,

what did you think was holding him back? well, i didn't believe exactly as i just described. i mean, if you seem to be technically rational and what i would say is my years, and what he proves completely is not. i mean, i was when analyzing him as a politician. i mean, he is an art craft and authoritarian, but still i was thinking that there's some political thought process going on and you've had and every time when the american intelligence was saying, well, there's a road to keep it. we'll get some fame. this is you aside, the goes against every and own national interest that, that, that russia has and put and should more be more understanding that. but clearly i was long, i think in the coffee times, i mean that's kind of a bad post called it syndrome when he was isolated, that very few people were getting close to him. it does seem that some giant geopolitical map was created in his head and he just thought that via ukraine

through ukraine, he's going to take on the whole west and show, especially the united states. that russia can also model in other, in other countries, militarily, in other countries, existence as the united states did, for example, in iraq. so that seemed to be a strategic miscalculation of a 1000 year 100 year, not at least a 100 year proportion. and they did not expect that from but violence has been a hallmark of his time in office, hasn't it, whether it's disposing of his political allies or the whole chechen war when he was prime minister? that's not a surprise. is it that he resorts to extreme violence and he's capable of it at any time? it's not a surprise, but the extremity of it's still still shocking. because even in

church 999. when his people, i don't think it's a direct order ever from gentlemen. one of the whole marks of this regime is that they all just guess what the great man the want it was it targeted it was, it's hard to get it senses, but now it's just the offense to not only to ukraine but to the whole world. so yes, i mean, i think there's the victoria mind in a sense does escalade. so when i was an hour analyzing him as a politician, i should already understood that absolute power corrupts up to absolutely enough to 22 years. she didn't have other choice than to have this idea of grandiosity. i mean, he's absolutely ego that have grown in 22 years to, to the size of the universe. so no, we are, you were indicating the i just wanted to. but if surprised, but it's still a shock,

whatever reasons they put forward for the invasion of ukraine, somehow, the fact that america might be involved in it seems to be of priority as far as putting is concerned. is that right? do you think he wants a war with the us? i don't think he wants the war in that with the us, but he does say to buy it and bring it on. he said to buy it and bring it on. one of the reasons i think he did is because he didn't think that buying would bring it on reports last week from washington indicate that american its allies and now set on totally rewriting their approach to russia. officials is speaking of a world in which the west no longer tries to co exist and co operate with moscow, but actively seeks to isolate and weaken it. as a matter of long term strategy, you wrote last month, the greatest potential bound side of russia's isolation is that it will make the kremlin even more dangerous to still think that way. i do. i do think that way. i think when, and i said, when you know the,

now the russians sort of turn around the flat, i mean rallied round the flan quite a bit. it seems to be that they would have no choice than just to if they can, to live in the country. but they now have, and they are for protect and justify the country that now have. but as you said earlier, i mean 14 years is a long, long time a low up can happen. a lot can happen very, very soon. so that may not be the case. for russia to continue on this absolute downward spiral, although i do believe that the security forces are going to be in control, but probably less toxic to the world. if something may happen to put in the problem with the world is that whatever the government is in russia, it's going to be very, very difficult. again, to make the world trusted to actually have the world we turn to it. and that is a great danger for any system when the crumbling what were not there yet because it

could, it could be and it probably very likely be 991 repetition. when the soviet union collapsed. russia will collapse the same the same way. but when it happened and how it happens, we do not know if, if you don't think it's a great idea for the west to isolate russia, what alternatives do western leaders have to respond to the most serious active military aggression in europe since world war 2? what options do they have, if not to take it out on, on the people themselves and bring in huge sanctions and punitive sanctions. and isolate russia from sporting cultural educational exchanges, things like that. they don't have many options. do, don't have many tools at the disposal. no, they don't, but also so far as you know, the expectation that the sanctions will happen. you know,

disney will withdraw from russia. harry potter is not going to be showing a mcdonald's moves out. it's going to turn, put in and say, oh i see the areas of my way. i'm not going to, i'm not going to continue. yes, it is possible. i mean, it probably likely than that the armed forces will have no support that will be putting will bog down in this for like the soviet union, in fact, got bumped down in afghanistan and had to withdraw in 89 and collapse shortly after . that's a possibility. but it doesn't it, so unless, if, if the destruction of russia is the final aim, yes, that will happen. if it is to change, put in. so even russia behavior, it's not going to happen. so i'm not entirely sure if we're looking at the destruction of rush, find that's going to that, that's all good. but then it also tells russians the west wants to destroy justice put in said, so we have to be behind the country's behavior and we have to try to withstand it

to survive it as much as we can. so i don't really, i think it is one of those problems that really has absolutely no solution. but one thing i want to say that those punishment of getting out the diplomats out of out of rush, kicking out russia. diplomats, i think it is a ridiculous policy. anybody had that policy because once the country is in the countries are in crisis, you need more diplomacy not less. and that i think is a giant, giant mistake is nato right to be scared. that putin might use nuclear weapons. isn't there some reason to think that put in backs away from a fight if someone directly confronted him? i'm thinking of what happened in 2015 when turkey's president, under one warned him about russian by russian plains, violating turkish ass base, put you not going to treat them as guests. another one replied, but the invited guests and shot one of them down. there was no response from

putting these out about a telling episode you think? i don't think so because actually in, in the one and put you have been doing this dance for quite some time. and alternately, and i mean actually you may remember there was a response because put in order to get planes out of turkey and the russian couldn't go to or to kish resort places and, but he hadn't eaten kind, you know, he would tell hated a different way he, we tell you that a different way, but i don't think the west is going to be the same. i think with the west is that he is and he said, i mean he, i think you so obsessed and so concentrated, so any any show forth will be responded by show force in it does see what my fear is that it does seem to put in as ready, as i said, to take russia, ukraine and everybody else down with him is the west. is the united states ready

for that? being a crucial that thanks very much for being on conflict. so appreciate your time. thank you very much. a a with

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ah ah . this is dw news live from berlin will tonight be ukraine's last stand in. mario pope soldiers are defying a russian ultimatums to lay down their arms. this could be our last appeal of our lives. we may be facing our last days, if not ours. the enemy out numbers as tend to warn. the cities defenders are bowing to fight to the end as battles rage across eastern ukraine. also coming up to night, german foreign minister, angelina barebones, announces that germany will stuff all russian oil import.