ah, it is a testament to the waters one of them, any success stories, bastion of biodiversity. sorts may 20th on dw vladimir putin victory day parade in moscow, brought no sign of the war in ukraine is coming to an end. russia's leader flaunting his power. and these weapons and blaming the west for his invasion. but will the west ever deal with him again? a question to rouse, take no social democrat member of the german, the thug who joins me this week from berlin. our aim is not regime change or weakening. one or the other country, but the getting the war stopped and putting to put back his troops. but what about germany's close relations with moscow?

the military equipment it sold to russia in violation of the sanction. the latest push for a settlement from a key german industrialist and will germany back, ukraine's insistence on reparations. and just when the war is over, all that and more uncomfortable for rough segment. welcome to complex zone. good morning. 2 days before the invasion of ukraine with russian troops massing on your grains border, you tweeted neither arms deliveries. no arms races will help because the conflict can't be solved militarily. do you know, accept that view was wrong? it's, it's thanks to those arms deliveries that ukraine still exists as a sovereign state. doesn't it? well, i don't know. i think my assumption that the conflict the end cannot be solved militarily

still holds true. what we didn't know, neither of us that putting would invade the ukraine and with a war like in the last century and with all this war crimes. and we couldn't know in advance how bravely the ukrainians would be able to defend their country still. and the end, at some point of time, the problem has to be solved and it won't be soft military. what could germany ever accept a situation where ukraine would lose the war and russian aggression would chime from the european continent? could you accept that? no, nobody wants the train to lose the war and i think we cannot afford this week . we cannot let protein win with this imperialistic move. but still there are difference to the question whether one is able to win a war. and there's a russian aggression, no doubt about it,

that has to be stopped. and there are different means to support the ukraine. we do that and we did that economically, financially, politically, with humanitarian net and also with military aides, with some of your statements about the ukrainians. have been pretty defeatist in the past. i wonder why that is, you were quoted telling a television program that sending heavy weapons to ukraine was essentially pointless because the country had no chance of winning. you wouldn't still say that would you? or the point is that military expense, and i'm not a military expert. there are a lot of military expenses these days. i'm not one of them. and tell me that without the nato entering the war, which cannot be any means the aim of what we're talking about. and it might be possible that russia won't get and to the point where they want to . but it's very hard to believe that the trained could win

a war against russia with so many more troops than they are crane and half and more, many more means. and therefore, i support our government and the policy together with the allies, with what we are doing. i don't think that the only solution is more and more and heavy and heavier arms. and another point, not the right time is it's not the right time is you've put it to put your faith in diplomacy and sanctions. you said diplomacy in sanctions a week ago you said they should have priority over weapons, diplomacy and sanctions haven't had much effect. so far have that. in fact, ukraine isn't gay, i don't find survival. i don't know whether you this is true that the sanctions don't have an effect. i think they will have effects and they do have your facts and they hurts russia very much. and as i said, i also support what we're doing together with the allies. i'm not just not

convinced that some others are that more and more weapons and even heavier weapons will decide the war on the ukrainian side. and i also see the victims and the structure of the country and none of them. and i had to make no mistake. it's the decision of the canyons themselves. what they are doing is we cannot give them advice and that's as an independent independent country. and it's their turn and we tried to support them as good as we can. but what is responsive and what is not also includes the question that the war doesn't reach the nato and that we're not involved in this war. and this also has to be put into account and therefore i have, i think it's a list, at least it's a troublesome question. one also has the responsibility for not only saying we do everything. what is expected from the ukrainian said,

we can't do everything. what is expected, they have had some wishes which we couldn't afford to deliver because no fly zones and kind of things because they would have involved nato and that's a border. we cannot, we shouldn't cross. how do you feel about this latest call from german business to co for a settlement? the boston folks are going to have a decrease as cost outrage in key f by calling for negotiated settlement and getting back to opening up the markets again. there wasn't a mention of the war crimes being committed or the crime of aggression, just a warning that europe will suffer most and germany, if global trade isn't restarted, you proud of that? no, i mean there is no doubt and where united in the in the question that everybody knows put in is the aggressor and he's a walk from there and should have been in lake some day. but,

but what about from dc friends always? i mean, yeah, it is a big island 1009, and one of your most prominent industrial magnets is only concerned with the profit margins. and i don't support that at all. and he's not a social democrat, and i don't support this at all. we can talk about lifting any sanctions or coming back to economic normality before this war stops and put in punch his troops back. and there's no doubt about this, but i don't think that has anything to do with the position. i'm advocating here. also, not only seeing the military means that all the other possibilities we have because every war has to be solved at the end, diplomatically and, and war is the worst that can happen to people, how long the country longest, right? how long will it be before more influential? germans start pushing for re normalization of ties with moscow? memories to show it, especially when there's money to be made and last. well,

and that doesn't have anything to do with our values. and therefore, i can only say there is no way towards normalization and towards earning money with a war going on that is able to destroy the ukraine. i mean, that is just horrible imagination. and therefore, that doesn't have any support by any democratic party in germany, maybe the writing extremist under support this, but we don't do you think that can be normalization between europe and russia, while putin remains in power possibly until 2036? well, 1st of all, we should not let us leads by our wishes, how government otherwise should be. as we see in many parts of the wall, we have to do with countries that have governments, we don't like at all. and it doesn't look like that putting and gets ousted by his

own people. opposition and people are getting murdered, are arrested and in jail in minority. and although one cannot stress stick and then the number's still, the support for putting the russian seems to be pretty high. so i wouldn't count on the change area very much in regina change is not a good experience. we have as, as, as aim of our policies. so i think we will have to deal with russia one day or the other. and i'm afraid we are not the ones to decide who is in government there yet . the precondition for that is that the war is, has come to an end. and russia puts becca strube that ukraine is a democratic independent state and not something which is dictated by a russian czar. however, you would want to call him and, and without reparations. and without accountability for the war crimes you think you can just shake hands and start doing business again with putin. i mean, is it

a problem that excessive german government seemed to be unable to work out that he does run the state which mud as its political opponents. and yet no allowance has been made for that in the close relationship that germany tried to foster over. so many years with putin, if you look at the 10s of thousands of people were killed in chechnya and put in orders, no one sat up and said, what sort of person could do that? i'm wondering why this close relationship went on being forged when it became clear that violence in russia was part of the official toolkit at street level and state level that should have led to a very different kind of relationship. and it, while the point is a gunbar, very smart from a politician, an architect of the us, probably to really find one said if we only dealt with the countries who wish every value with, who would be alone with no way and eyes and been to that's not enough,

exaggerated on the limit. yes, but what i want to want to tell you is, for instance, faxed on my president of germany and from a minister negotiated with the iran and no no care a treaty with one of the worst bloody is dictatorship regimes. we know, and still it's a good thing to do that and we have regimes, we don't like it all in china, was no, there was no democracy then we have even in our own, can't. if you look at turkey, part of nato, and not in democracy in so many countries don't have democracies or we have now new economic ties for arabic states who sentence many, many people to death and they have nothing to do with our value. so that's part of the sad reality. we have that we don't have a democratic states all over the place. and if you look at the countries that

support russia and as war by that least don't share the sanctions. we do, then you have a majority of the population of the weather, which is really sad, but you know, joe, generally along with other countries, you ignored a lot of warnings that came about what pollutants intentions really were. for good reasons. we thought that it's better to seek economic ties with russia, scientific corporation, youth exchange and all these kinds of things. because that was one of the experience we had after the war. that if you strengthen those ties and makes it less likely that go to war with each other and germany has a lot of responsibility for the worst one we ever had in history. and therefore, i think it's understandable that we try to rather advance diplomatic ties, economic ties rather than only think in military terms. there is, in this case, in this case ms. vandal door handle idea. change through trade. didn't stop

this brutal aggression where the thousands of people being killed and the cities decimated, didn't didn't work, did it? doesn't work. doesn't change people's behavior. no mention china. it hasn't changed any behavior in china whatsoever. has it? no, but i think you can see that all parts of the world said we have brutal crimes and wars and people dying. sometimes we don't care at all. and africa when there are no resources in the game or no power interest. you find that and i think that isn't right, i don't anywhere in the world. my understanding is that the best way would be that the united nations, other ones to decide when you have to help the country that is attacked by another or has the civil war with a lot of civilian victims. and,

but the united nations, i'm strong enough and we still have this structure with the regional rights. that doesn't really work as we could see russia, but that's the best way rather than one side, deciding what to do. and actually there is no one who should throw the 1st stone because the rock wash, i was another guy and other places. there are so many things and have gone wrong. but the point lessons from, from the things that went wrong, isn't that america america wants to see russia permanently weakened after this war, do you? i don't think that that the position of the american president, we heard what the minute stuff defends in washing sand. but there are talks between the governments, especially between the champs that send president by and by then my call. and we understand that the aims haven't been, haven't been reviewed. our aim is not regime change or weakening one or the other

country, but getting the war stopped and put in to put back as troops and reassuring the summer energy of a democratic ukraine. hashtags, do you believe that one of the biggest mistakes of the past was pushing ahead with that big symbol of good relations between russia and germany, the no stream to gas pipeline right up until this project was halted at the very last moment. is it any wonder that russia got the message that germany didn't care about ukraine because it was full speed ahead with no stream to after the invasion of crimea? you still went along with it. germany was warmed repeatedly about putting an energy weapon into rushes hands, especially by the u. s. in the east european states. why would those warnings ignored? well, 1st of all, that it wasn't an mistake to make us so dependent on national gas has

been said by the german president, by the chancellor and his speech and the bonus tag 2 sided rendered speech other than by others who still credit her due credits and criticized that in the public and 2nd. still that have been good reasons at that time for that although it was wrong in the end aside from today, there were good reasons. one reason is germany is a country with a lot of nuclear and coal power and for the change we have to make we needed cheap gas and cheaper and more and friendly to the environment. and then the american franken gas hash tag, since 2014 germany and some other u. u states have been exploiting loophole and the sanctions on russia and directly selling moscow military equipment including rifles. so called protection vehicles. you happy about that and very critical. and as far as experts of

military product are concerned, and regions of tension on dictatorships, i have been very strong opinion and that have had for many, many years not always. and was that you shared very body and it was a responsive body in germany. but there was always my position that we should not send arms and weapons and regions of tension and dictatorships. and there are very few exceptions. wherever obligation towards is around that is different from everything else. but quite a few exceptions on that because you know, successive german governments have been using this pod and false excuse that germany doesn't send weapons to conflict vans while the experts know that it does. the largest recipient of german alms has been egypt. 6000000000 euros work over the

last 4 years. egypt fully involved in the yemen and libyan wars as well as human rights abuses your own. you're right, and i don't really object to that at all. and i criticize that too. knowing that we are proud of the problem, our government has been and i'm pretty critical that i think this is wrong. the issue of sending heavy weapons to ukraine has been highly controversial in germany . it's spit the government id spent your party. it spent the country, but for a long time, johnson shells just couldn't make up his mind. could he get saying germany wouldn't go it alone. the fact is, nobody ever asked germany to go alone. by the time berlin said yes to heavy weapons, its allies had been shipping alms to ukraine for weeks. what was sholtes afraid of the pacifist wing and your party? still pretty strong, isn't it? no, i don't think this, this is true. and i think that's

a very superficial impression, i can observe by, by others who criticize that. if you talk to the people on the streets, they know, and they are glad that we have a chancellor who and christians of war and peace as cautious as everything things acts very closely together with especially washington paris and also one who doesn't look at the so much of the communication part of it with the strong inter you as an all those guys to do that and gladly not. and the chance in this place and people know that and they like that. and therefore, my impression by what people think about this is totally different from what i hear and beside that. but yeah, did you say that? but according to the polling institute in may, the 1st 54 percent of germans are unhappy with his performance. the pose

this way and that way i and i see and many things and what is talked about in the public and what have really is the difference. let me give you another example. i'm part of the fun relations committee and the new gentleman's tax. so i was able to look at the lists of things we export to the ukraine, and i've seen many times that's what i read and those list was different from what was reported in the public. and besides that, we have good reasons not to talk about what we do exactly besides, the french are much more strict than we are. they didn't talk at all about what they're doing. we do that proudly anyway. so i'm not so surprised about how the public discusses this. i can only say that people much more like to see on the sides and the chancery as who someone who is response or, or,

is doing, trying to support the grant as good as we can. and, and also make sure that germany and nader doesn't get part of the war. and what that, what about is diplomatic spat with, with the ukraine just because president landscape criticized your president's previous close relationship with moscow and said he shouldn't visit shops, decided he wouldn't go either. shouldn't the government have been able to rise above petty squabbles in the middle of a major war in europe? well, it's very difficult to criticize the ukranian president or the ambassador to germany in a situation where they defend their country. yet on the other side has been the 1st time since world war 2 that our head of state has been and been named persona, non contact another country. and by the way, germany is the country that supported the crane economics in humanitarian financial more than any other country in europe for a long time. and so does this and together with the others. so that is not

something you can just ignore. and if the president cannot come to chance, they couldn't just go to okay. f as if there was nothing. and now this was resolved and it's good that it was resolved. and we should not have discussions about interior policies with the ambassador. that's not his business. as not the way we do things yet, i know there's nothing to win in seeking conflict with representatives. you can say we don't want to have this because it's leads away from what we are trying to do, together with our allies supporting the train as best as we can. and what is fonda? what works? what does make sense? and what doesn't bring us into the war as part of this war? south hash tag that everybody knows now that everybody who lives in western eastern europe knows that they're living next to a dangerous to unpredictable superpower east and flank and

a leader who has no qualms about using force to get what he wants. do you have faith that the nato alliance can defend itself against this, russia, putins, russia? well, i'm sure we can, and we will, if nato was attacked. but everybody can only hope that this never happens, because the power of destruction, if you look at the nuclear arsenals of both sides, it's just terrible. and yet, there's always place for smarts, leaders and for good diplomacy, as you could have seen in the cuban missile crisis was president kennedy. different circumstances yet very slot. and the president who didn't act as probably wanted him to do and all newspapers, road and the military establishment and the economic napoleon, when he refused that. and basically that was the reason why we never were 3, i would say, but it may blow missy. you talk about smart diplomacy is not

a substitute for reparations. and accountability is germany. going to insist on that in any p steel that is agreed with russia now. black, it's clear, it cannot be, it can only be a solution when the ukraine or crease to it is the sovereign state and we cannot act for the ukrainians. this is their business and we should, we shouldn't do that. i mean that would be very arrogant. they have to decide what they want to do, and we have to decide how we can support them as good as we can, and you will sit there and then whatever you will support them, whatever they ins. no, no, that wouldn't. now, and that would be, that would be irresponsible because of course we are responsible we are doing and as i said, and besides, that's exactly what's the opinion as of president biden and also president mccall.

and that's ne, don't, doesn't want to get involved in this war directly. that is the position everybody shares. and i really want to stress that because sometimes i have the impression people think that it's germany who holds and prevents things from happening. that's not the case. we work together and obviously it has to be explained a little bit better and in the public that may be and yet i think we good agreement with our allies and that should stay that way for everything we're doing in the future. and if you can insist on reparations and accountability, you will support those demands, will you why one can only support. ready knows how they are exactly. you cannot say that without an appointment that that we have an obligation to seek that the crane gets restored and i mean that this massive destruction and the

un can come back to normal life. that's our interest. and that obligation i would say rob statements good to have you on conflict, so thank you very much indeed. thank you. ah ah, with

who to the point. strong opinions are positions. international perspectives, reporting and brushes, armed forces have suffered some serious setbacks during the invasion of neighboring you, craig, so will they scale back operations or response in perhaps to launch a new campaign? find out on to the point shortly. to the point with d, w. the power of sounds in,

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healthier and fuller life. one of the most insightful discoveries in the history of mankind. hash moral life starts may 28th on d, w. d. ah, this is d w news, and these are our top stories. finland's president and prime minister said that their country should apply for nato membership without delay finish. public opinion has shifted in favor of joining the alliance since russia invaded ukraine. moscow says it will respond to phillips move and that joining nato would inflict serious damage to security in northern europe the you.