with the learning, like global ideas, we will show you how climate change and environmental conservation is taking shape around the world and how we can all make a difference. knowledge grows through sharing, download it now for free at the recent annual parade to mark russia's war time victory over nazi germany. let me put in, looks like a man pushed close to the limits of his forces. and indeed he faces serious setbacks. the russian invasion of ukraine, which he ordered has lost nearly all of its momentum, with the ukrainian side, putting up 10th resistance, a russian victory like the one in world war 2 appears far from likely. so on to the point where he ask parade without victory is potent leading russia into disaster

with eventually much deed for joining us some the show and with me in the studio is journalist angelina de veto. who recently fred fled from st. petersburg and he's currently a fellow with the german based program media in co operation and transition also with as his tyson back from the german council on foreign relations and roman gunshot and co from t w's russia, ukraine, eastern europe department in ball. well, thank you all free for being with me today. once again, and i'd like to begin with you to angelina your decision to flee your home country, your homeland. why did you leave? it was not an easy decision, but it was also something new which build up in the next few days after the war has been declared. and even though you are not allowed to call it a war in russia,

you're supposed to be calling it a special military operation. and this is just one of the very many limitations which are out there for journalist at the moment. then general situation, the last few years has also been not very positive. i mean the war a lot of cases of direct or indirect censorship. many media outlets have been closed. many jerry journalists have been charged manager was have left the country . but now everything which we experience ever since the beginning of the war on february 24th makes a situation almost impossible to work when you decided that it was finally time to leave you. so you, you have been quoted as saying that you felt or so you had 3 options. what were those 3 options? so the 3 options war, either to stay in the country and debbie, silent say nothing about the war, right? nothing about the war. even social media as already have few personal friends of mine who have been prosecuted for their posts in social media platforms. option

number 2 was to seen russia. i remain vocal, but also have here something melt might happen to me. option i'm 3 was to leave and i decided to go for the 3rd option. okay. and in a word, when you look at the country, you have left what, what, what, what word, what description would you use for letting me put in russia today? i think everything which russian government is doing at the moment is leading russia to disaster and it is taken russia's future away from the country and from its people. thank you for that. now the, you, the question we're asking today's whether vladimir putin is the, is ways leading his country, possibly into chaos or demise. let's take a closer look at the impression that president putin made of the recent victory parade. and then we'll bring in roman and tyson the russian president looked tired during his speech at the traditional military parade. he could not announce

any big military victories as ukrainian forces have been fiercely resisting it. instead, he blamed to nato for the war. i see adela. oh, please don't shut. nato armed our neighboring country windows in 3. that was an absolutely unacceptable strategy, deliberately directed against us right at our borders on the ceiling. some was the yet to leave them. hootin went on to claim that russia preemptively reacted to that threat. it was in his words, the only right decision addressing russian soldiers. he said with roger, it is that you are fighting for your homeland for its future or the way it must not be forgotten that there is no place in the world for executioners. butchers and monotonous illuminati. wilmington have to let go. of his military aims. was a very important question tyson is, can you imagine possibly a poacher being forced to abandon his objectives in any way his military object?

i think in some ways the objectives are evolving or at least the short term objectives are evolving. um, you know, he house these kind of sayings like a d not to vacation or, you know, a freeing the country from butchers or, you know, these kind of things, but they're not very well defined. but in some ways they've, they've remain the same for, for many years. and that is that he has a certain idea of russia and the post soviet space that russia needs to be restored . there's a restore to process that needs to take place to become a great power in his terms. he sees enemies, adversaries everywhere because he projects on to others. his personal intentions. um, so he sees aggression. he sees intrigue. he sees deception because that's how he governs . i'm and in that way he is, he's always just kind of pasturing and of course he cares a lot about historical symbolism. it's a little, it was a very short address and,

and i just want to pick up one point many observer said, assume the president putin would announce a wider and the broader and possibly more threatening mobilization. it didn't happen. why not? where do you, what do you think? well, others at, at this table are probably better a position to answer that than i am. but one thing i will say is that, you know, even if he wasn't announcing future action, he could have at least consolidated victories. that have occurred till now, and because they have been virtually non existent in this 1st phase of this intense war that started on in late february. oh, really? he had nothing to deliver to, to his people in this, in this moment. it's interesting. do you see it that way? a roman country and co in bond you the president protein had nothing to deliver. and he didn't, he didn't present a new plans for mobilization. what's your angle on why that term that didn't come through as many had expected?

well, i think the expectations in western media were very much exaggerated, so it's not pointing to tile to, to, to make big announcements on the, on the, during the parade or in his speech on this day. the 9th of may, which is a very important day in russia. so i think he was trying to convey the message, things are going well. everything is going according to the plan. and well, we are just at the very beginning of the of this was just too early to say that he failed. of course, he failed in the beginning and in his attempt to contact kia and push, push away ukrainian forces from p. if my good to toppled the government, that object failed, but he is still moving forward in the east and in this house. so he increased the territory controlled by russian forces. he nearly doubled it since the beginning of the war. why he didn't say that that will be mobilized session. i think there are several reasons. so he likes to be unpredictable and things like this war. it's

something which is which is which is difficult. you know, russian people, i don't think most of them want this war and likes this war. so he wants to keep it on a low flame self to say something comparable maybe to the sockets and gotten his son when they have, when they had a limited contingent of forces. and this is exactly very similar here. and i think that the russian president is still keeping much of his reserves and maybe preparing them for a bigger war, maybe for a war which will take more time, maybe years. so i'm rather skeptical about and so i wouldn't go as far as to say that he has lost this war and he is losing. and ukraine is bringing. the situation is very dynamic. and we still have to wait a few weeks. the coming weeks and months will be it will be very important. can i

can i put in one point of contrast between this speech, this may, 9th speech and the one that put in had in 2014. just to give a sense of how he sees this moment. that year he gave this speech in moscow and then immediately traveled to crimea for the 1st time to basically celebrate the return of crimea to russia. so these historical hinge points are quite important. and again, there he wanted to, of course cro about crimea is illegitimate. return to russia. i think if he had that moment now he would have taken it. and the fact that he doesn't, is very telling angelina, there was a respond to then just just a quick response to that. a lot of observers and experts have been expecting putting and maybe a president of belarus, lucas shank or to travel to crimea. she didn't do it, he's not traveling because he thinks he thinks that it is not safe for him to go over. i think he would like to what it is not safe. so his,

he has very much limited his travel plans. but i think we shouldn't overestimated. and really there is it, is it policy? is it right to say that there are the, in the west observers in the west of the journalists like us have misunderstood the situation among the russian people that they are. they are not as a downcast maybe about the prospects have now a long war taking place to visit this more backing than we might be expected for protein at this stage. well, i would say it was not only the weston journalists who have misunderstood a, but i also am very great majority of rational critical journalists have also me resend it to the situation completely. and, and right now it's obviously not very easy to say what the public opinions really are, because you can hardly trust official state polls or it may be also refused to speak to about that. many people also say what is expected of them? i think a really important factor is that if viewed as the majority of people before the

war, whether they would be supporting it, the answer would probably be no. now, since the beginning of the war and down along the lines of massive state propaganda, the support of the war is there. some people supported actively, some people supported passively saying that we don't know what's happening, make their fake news on all kind of side. we just want to deal with their own life and go forward. and there are maybe i would say between 15 and 25 percent of people who are against the war. it was interesting, i read one observer in the western media this week, likening russia to the fairy story of the emperor with no clothes and the emperor going out naked and nobody telling him his name is russia a country that is that he's terrified of the truth i speak in jewels and processing tools is obviously not a very easy task for many people living in russia and, and also acknowledging the fact that russian army is doing what it's doing in

ukraine is also very challenging task for many russians. the rom, numerous cases, or when ukrainian relatives call their russian relatives and tell everything what is actually happening now in ukraine. they don't believe them. they believe stay television. they don't believe their own relatives. and there are many families who are, will have roots in both countries. and, and it might take years to realize what is happening, it might take years for people to come to understand and what russia is doing now, and what consequences are out there for ukraine. but also for russia, this is, there's a sense of around russia that those of the history is constantly being rewritten and recreated and re imagined. and at this point in time, a lot of that recreation surrounds nazis neo nazis and june. why is that mixture of toxic ms. mixture? i think tyson has already addressed it in what he was saying earlier. that there's

a lot of sentiment and there's a lot of sad feelings about soviet empire collapsing in the ninety's. and i think a lot of today's propaganda has been built on that to strengthen up this feeling to make people think we can build the empire again. even though we have to go through economic difficulties, even though we have to experience hardships will make it. ah, but then the 2nd world war was, or in the last i would say town to 12 years has been positioned as and the victor in the 2nd world war or fresh air, has been positioned as one of the major achievements of russian history ever. and there was a lot of this backwards look in attitude that's this is at the main cornerstone of our identity. this is something which we build on our, today's life. it was so much looking back into history and, and instrumental as in this history and turning into into an instrument of today's

propaganda. and today's rhetoric that russian needs to be great again, and we need to rebuild this and fire and out, personally for me, that was a very sad story. it was, i felt like with so much interest and so much attention on to the history. it's something which happened many years ago, even though it was obviously very tragic of and, and it was a very important event in world history. russia's history. so little attention has been paid to what's happening now. and so my little attention has been paid to what will be happening in the future in a way that image that we build. everything we have on the, on the past is, is not sustainable. it's not something which will give us new future. nevertheless, sir tyson, there are many who see parallels between pollutants, denial of the existence of you quote, as a separate nation and hitler's denial of the right to life in the nazi period is not okay. is that a comparison we can make? i wouldn't make that comparison, we're talking about

a completely different situation, a completely different error in a completely different international system today than we were almost 80 years ago . what i would say is that putin is he, he styles himself as a student of history, but he has a selective interpretation of moments of history. and if you look at the way he instrumental rises and sometimes militarize us history, and that symbolism, it there kind of 3 areas that he pulls out. one is russia's grandeur. it has this destiny on the global stage. and that destiny runs right through ukraine or the 2nd is this sense of sacrifice. and there he does look to the experience, for example, in saint petersburg in the siege of saint petersburg and what the people were able and willing to sacrifice. they had the lesson, the soviet union under siege i and he says, you know, we can do the same thing yet whether the people wanted or not. and the 3rd is a pathological sense of victim hood. everybody else is responsible for rushes or

decline since it's since the ninety's. it's nato expansion. it's nazis round every corner. it's plural. so it's gays, it's a minorities. it's never the fault of the corrupt system that has eaten away at russia itself. interesting observations. now in our short report that we heard at the top of the show, president putin railed against the neo nazis. and what he sees is there henchmen in ukraine. so now here is president salon ski, talking about the influence of world war 2. on what is happening today when you pull in as a modem of we will never forget what our ancestors did in world war 2, visits in which more than 8000000 ukrainians died in of dillard given him was we will not say that can be repeated 0 but only a madman would want this war. time back again. little score is lamar one only a madman would repeat the horrific crimes of hitler's regime. no invader will ever rule our free country. sooner or later we will when we,

when am i'm well room. i'm president cholenski there, here he has managed to establish a reputation for himself. a cool goes for himself, him or of fame self as being dynamic, communicative, egalitarian open. is there a downside tool that well, some his critics him see his he see him maybe as to dynamic or criticize him for trying to use his, his experience as a, as an actor too much. but actually that's a minority. most people in ukraine like it. so he seems to be the right person in the right place as a president. so he stayed in here in the 1st weeks, he didn't run away which some expected and put in expected probably as well. and so he helped to consolidate the country and in its darkest hour. and so i think m m

it's, it's very important that he is the president at this time. and he is supporting the ukrainian people he's doing all he can using of course, his experience as an actor. and i think in that video, we also saw it how he can also project that experience and persuade also people in the west watching those videos. because i, i hear and read a lot of positive remarks from western journalists, western politicians about the lens, zalinski, and how he conveys his message is how he communicates because the consciousness with him and president putin is very striking. interesting that you, you obviously are a reporter, a correspondent, a journalist, and that's the same time you are a person who has emotions, who is emotional about what is happening in the world. tell us about how, what is going on in some of you at this point. in time, as this story around you credit, russia evolves. well,

it's very difficult for me as for all ukrainians to, to, to digest what is happening to somehow sorted out and just start to analyze and do what we have to do. because this is so, so immense, so big, we saw it coming all the menu of us. so this war coming, starting maybe 2014 or maybe earlier. but still most of us believe that this is, this is madness. and this madness it's, it's, it's very painful to watch what is happening every day. and as a journalist it's, it's especially difficult for me because i have to follow the events. i wake up in the morning and start reading the twitter news and several news outlets. and the news a not good, and they will not be good for a long time. you have told me that the worst is yet still to come. yes,

regretfully, the worst is yet to come. and so you have to have a very long breath and have a lot of mental strengths to cope with us. i'm doing better now than in the 1st days of this war because it was also a surprise for me because many of us, as i've just said, we thought this would be madness for voting to do. because this will destroy russia . why should he do it? but she still has done it, so we are moving towards a catastrophe for russia and for ukraine, we have a catastrophe already. so within intention, intention was to her to crane. and regretfully he succeeds in that, but you crank those are fighting back. and this is something which gives also hope to ukrainians a quick work. thank you for that room and a quick word tyson on the, on the american perspective, you are an american and there have been voices from, from washington suggesting that the people believe that there is perhaps a window of opportunity to, as the wording has been to somehow move,

president putin off center stage globally, is that is that is not a credible approach is not a wise approach. i think that if you, if you listen to the by the administration's, you know, rhetoric and look at their plans and then see how they're being getting, you know, top cover from, from congress which is even more pro ukrainian, that the administration, which is incredibly pro ukrainian there are 3 objectives. one is to support ukraine originally, you know, financially than with defensive, lethal assistance now with heavy weaponry and have just passed, a congress just passed a $40000000000.00 package to do so. that's 7000000000 more than the administration actually asked for. so every time they're tapping it out because that support is so strong, then hardening nato, making sure that nato is the trip wire, which really leads to an escalation that it wouldn't even be attempted. and a 3rd is costs for russia. and in the past,

i will say i worked in the obama administration in 2014. there was a 4th pillar, which was offering an off ramp for putin, making sure that there was always. but that is not a primary objective right now, because the face saving options, right? because right now the primary objectives are these 3 objectives, to support ukraine, harden nato costs for russia. because as was said, you know, the rational calculation for russia's own standing in the world and prosperity of its people is not to engage in this war. and until there is a constellation where an off ramp actually could yield something that would preserve those, the 1st 3 primary objectives, it's not really on the table. ok, angelina? on a slightly different note. say you are a journalist. you describe yourself as a journalist, but you also describe yourself, i noted as a change maker, or what is a change maker and how can you make change happen at this point in time?

that's a very tough question, and that's also question which i keep asking myself ever since february 24th. for many years i've been working in russia, as you mentioned, as a journalist, but also someone who was trying to establish, for example, people to people international connections. people to people, diplomacy to many european countries, but also like the west in general. and i've been working in very close connections with the civil society groups. also the air of environment and climate change. and even though political pressure was growing, even though state pressure in various forms was increasing on and joe groups on journalists that were still possible to do something in particular areas. and maybe the, like me, you was thinking okay, through this very little changes through this international cooperation programs that also may be open journalism open and critical journal is we can change the country. and i saw this change is happening with many local groups. was people caring so much about their immediate environment or their cities or many social

initiatives appear in we thought that would change the country, but what happened on february 24th is that the force of power just destroyed. everson also destroyed a lot of what people like we were doing and this is why so many people have left the country ever since. and this is also why we keep asking these questions to ask, what is it that we can do now what, what is possible? now we begin with this very personal decision that you made it to, to leave, to leave your home country. a country where you've told me you were very, very fond of in your youth and, and, and in later years. oh, what, how would you describe, move now around, like if i might ask, cuz is it more a sort of a mood of despair or moved of hope or is it a mixture of the 2? well, it comes in waves one day when i'm been active when i do something and i'm, i have a feeling i do something reasonable. i help other people. i feel better than

sometimes despair also comes, especially when i don't see any, any cute picture of the future. i would like to see also feel sad. i feel that, as i said in the beginning of the future, i mean, not only of russia, but also of the world is very unclear. now. i feel worried about many friends and colleagues was 2 in russia and who are critical about the war and who had been detained or why been threatened? ah, yeah, all this, all his feelings at once a quick answer is, is russia heading for disaster? i think in its current pass, yes. it's already in the state of disaster. rama. yes, russia. he's heading for disaster very fast. okay, well that's good lou, me in great notes. it's time to say bye bye. thanks very much for joining us on to the pointer and don't come back next time until then by by can choose

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in the years past to global power in the country has been stronger in the international order under the hindu hard liners, prime minister in our modi. but domestically the country is increasingly divided the world of not in the 75 d w with we're all set to go beyond the obvious citizenship and we're all live as we take on the we're all about the stories that matter to whatever it takes belief and i'm following

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this is dw news lie from berlin, b e u announces another half a 1000000000 euros to buy weapons for ukraine. that announcement comes just as top diplomats from the g 7. gather the talks in northern germany at discussing price spikes and shortages, triggered by russia's invasion, few great russia and ukraine. find full control over the east and don bass region and talks drag over a possible prisoner swap. the could see the release of wounded ukrainian troops from the adults.