go out smart nature for a longer, healthier and fuller life. one of the most insightful discoveries in the history of mankind. more life starts may 28th on d, w. as the kremlin began its war against ukraine, the horse, but closure of russia, lost independent media outlets. the aim, of course, to secure absolute control of the public narrative about the invasion and the cost of it. but did it work? and what about the people defying that control? my guess this week is the katerina culture cards a use that is turn presenter on one of the last channels to be shut down, doors, tv, known internationally as tv rain. she played russia and the 1st week of march, and now co chairs,

a program of news and analysis on youtube. you can just call it in the pick up. she joins me from the georgia capital to believe is russia heading back into full scale soviet repression? what does she feel about the international response to the war or western companies want to pull out of russia? also, what do russians know about the terrible crimes their forces are alleged to have committed? or do most prefer to turn a blind eye? i'm really fearing that the moment of realization, the acknowledgement will come and it's going to be a huge problem. and all that and more uncomfortable for your company will cut through cards. they welcome to conflicts own. thank you very much. let's talk 1st about the war because i want to 2 interesting developments

that i'd like to get your thoughts on. a handful of pro moscow bloggers who've been towing the official line up till now seems suddenly to have found a new voice writing openly of the stupidity of the russian command, shortages of equipment, failure to deal with recurring problems. not idiocy said one, but direct sabotaged. how serious is that for a government that keeps telling its public that everything's going to plan? it's a signal, you know it, the ringing bell or russian government because they control everything in russia right now. they have this short, old, independent media outlets. there is no single one independent media organization right now in russia. so even in this circumstances, when someone criticizes the situation in ukraine, the level of you know, russian army and russian force and so on and so forth. it means that something is

really wrong there. and i really, i really think that this is a great news because millions of russians are watching, said television propaganda. and even on the shows on political talk shows that are actually repeating everything that kremlin tells them to say even day you can see some criticising voices. so it's a great news for me. some of a observations seem pretty damning, especially on the destruction of a motorized rifle brigade that was apparently decimated as it tried to cross the done. yes. river in the east and look counts region one of the bloggers wrote until we get the last name of the military genius who laid down a battalion group by the river. and he answers for it publicly. we won't have had any military reforms on these blog as taking a huge risk because moscow presumably good stamp on them anytime it feels like it.

of course, i mean it, you know, it's all about the classic situation. when you, when you kill independent journalists, destroy independent journalists. when you destroy independent politicians, imprison them. when you detained everyone who speaks out, every one who is liberal in russia, then you have other people left in the country with dictation ship. and if you don't have any liberal left in the country, you will go for others. so this is something that this people, this program and bloggers and so co journalists should have thought about before. they have thought about that the time for them would come as well and will come of course. so i think that, you know, it, of course, it doesn't mean that the propaganda will change the shift and that, that,

that the propaganda will change the course. they will of course go one and keep on saying that ukrainians are not sees that the land keys the fashion that nato is a threat to russia and what is the criminal and losing control of the narrative. now, i'm not, i think, i think i think it's too early to say. so. i think that there will be a huge modernization of soldiers in russia who is, is having a huge problem in ukraine as you can imagine. and you can see. so he will need force that he will need a quantity bigger quantity of people of men. so this will be the moment when a lot of millions of russian russians will understand that it's not more a situation when they are sitting in front of television and criticizing ukraine, or nato, or joseph biden,

or whoever you name it is going to be time when they will, you know, they will be forced to stand up and go to fight ukrainians, and this will become a huge moment. and you narrative definitely blog does a one thing. but what happens when the relatives of thousands of casualties start appearing in the streets to counter the official version of the war? asking exactly what happened to their sons or their fathers and what they've been dying for. is that the next step? it's not, it's not easy to forecast. what's going to happen next up, people in russia, the society of russia is depressed. it's named a path, yet they are. they are feeling kind of different feelings. first is depression. second is fear. people like, are not ready so far to rally industry off of russian cities because

they're scared of the consequences. they know that when someone goes out on the street invest in celebration, they are either detained or they may be followed by police officers or police officers can come to their apartment and black mail, their relatives, and so on. and before. so, you know, the, the moment has not come yet. also, there is a problem of leadership, oppositional leadership in russia. there are no people who would lead the, you know, protests, indifferent cities. ellison, of only the leader of opposition is in jail and he faces 9. i mean, he is already he has already got 919 more years. yeah. let me talk a bit about tv right and your channel tv, rain. it survive just about a week into the war in ukraine, and for that week you had huge audiences around 25000000. i think on youtube. did

you really think that would last know before the, what his thought is. i was in munich, security conference, the recording and it's into you, then moving. and before the thing to you, someone from the stuff of the secretary asked me, what's going to happen with to be rain. and i said if the war stars, actually, if the war starts, they will destroy us. and this is what happened after a week. and this, even though, i mean even this week was at present a gift from the government. it was a lot already that we had this opportunity to be on air. so, you know, you expected that there would be a clam down, but you wrote in an article last month, little did we know that our coverage of russians war in ukraine was about to come to an end. the state had been harrassing independent journalists for years,

hadn't it in russia? so why on earth would they let you put out versions of the war that contradicted their own? of course, no. i was absolutely sure that they would discharge your rain sooner or later. and of course, i mean, we just did not know when exactly and when they, when they started the war and did not shut down old independent media, immediately, we had to hope that may be something, something has changed in, in the mind of russian politicians. maybe they have just forgotten about us, but you still lived in the state where john las had been killed or had been pushed off their balconies or at the very least been threatened continually. did you think you could buck that trend for long? i mean, what was the reason you were tolerated for so many years, the coach and thought it useful to create a facade of democracy with a facade of

a free press. but, but you will use to that when you yes. yes. where, but i think, and we, we did understand what was going on in russian situation. it was not a situation like we were naive or something like that. know when you were going on . but still we were thinking about the viewers the audience. we had a huge audience, really 3 plus something 1000000, only on youtube and another platform. millions of people were watching tv rain and i know that there are 2 realities. first is let me put and pretending to have a democracy in russia. this all have and that has ended on february 24th. second is is the audience of rain. second people is people who were watching us and they needed us and they still need us. so i can, i can see how many people are texting me personally, directly. thousands of people asking, asking to relaunch, can be rein asking to,

to have the new media because people are starving for, for, for the informational sources of information. it means a lot and it really is important because it means that there is no mess the support of the one. let me personally along with the radio station echo of moscow and the novel guys. yet the new paper you were the last of the independent media organizations. so you closed your youtube channel and social media accounts almost immediately. was that panic among your colleagues that final day, what was the mood in the studio? when you realized it was over? when the war started right up, they started, people were in a terrible, terrible situation. when i was coming to the office, i was seeing in different parts of the newsroom. people sitting reporter is sitting and crying. it was not looking like panic. it was,

it was looking like people were acknowledging that their country's killing civilians, that the russian federation is committing a crime against humanity. when we acknowledge the fact, it was a huge, huge trauma and huge. i know it was a terrible, terrible feeling when you understand that your country is committing crimes, your country that used to be in the eyes of the world and a legend which actually won over hitler and one in the 2nd world war right now. russia is committing pretty much the same as nazi germany. germany was you, that you have bad realization, but do you think that realization is out there among the public in general?

the opinion polls seem to show majority supporting the war, although they don't call it that. but the russian, the russian, socio ologist, gregory, you didn't suggest that the survey don't show what people think. they show what they're prepared to say in public. and those are 2 very different things. something in russia. of course you didn't is absolutely right. i don't believe anything, even if the social a g is, is right technically because there is only one social social institution in russia . right now. you bought the declaim declared, actually as a foreign agent, but still they have the normal, not, not fake researchers. but you, i mean, it's obvious that you can not have direct answers from the people who leave in dictatorship. you can not have direct answers from, from people who understand that they can be detained or they have, they can have, may have a lot of problems for the, from the government. still answering your question about the acknowledgement of the,

of the position of russian federation right now in ukraine. i think that the big majority of people do not want to say this for themselves. they don't want to, they don't want to realize that their country is on the opposite side of the history right now. you know, the whole, do they have some ways persuade themselves that it's got nothing to do with them or they just don't know that these war crimes allegations are out there and they don't want to think about it. there's so many people, even texting me on my telegram in the comments on my telegram channel saying, we don't want to know why are you keep telling us that we are committing crimes in your graham? we don't want to know it because it's difficult. it's not easy and also there is a problem all internal relationships in the families, in russia, people are fighting each other. they are,

they are having divorces. they're having terrible conflict with the friends, with relatives, husband and wife, brothers. i mean, this is something that is really unacceptable for millions of questions, and i'm really fearing that the moment of realization, the acknowledgment will come. and it's going to be a huge problem, a huge trauma and it's not going to be easy for them. but the moment will come, of course. what are we looking at here in russia? the moment? is this a return to full strength soviet style repression, as far as you're concerned? yes, i think it's even worse. oh, because the, the problem in russia is that after the collapse of us saw enough to lead me yelton and put in after him has come to power. of course he has started to, you know, to, he has started repressions right up and he came. but still,

russia did have this opportunity to use internet resonance during oldest 20 years of putting a presidency. they'd have opportunity to travel, they didn't have these doesn't pay for them, they make money and make money as well. and that was, it wasn't and with the old soviet union, boston the new generation of russia and not only new generation, but also people in their forties and fifties. they saw how beautiful life may be, how, how comfortable life may be. they, they understand what's going on in great britain, in germany, in the united states of america. they cannot be fooled like they wear in the soviet union. so right now, this is a shock for, for the people. and what, what, what would you have the west do about all this? because you said you don't want to face the situation when people in washington,

or berlin or paris say about russia. ok, this is another north korea. let's forget about it. but what should the west do instead, they see your troops destroying the country next door and apparently committing terrible war crimes. what do you want? people in the west to say, i want people to find solution with, for example, gas, russian gas, and russian oil. i want them to find a solution. when let me put in doesn't get billions of dollars every day for his, for his own guess which you are buys. but you say russia shouldn't be isolated. why not running incredibly dangerous country to the west, isn't it? absolutely, but people rushing people should not be isolate. this is very important. well, how to make the government without isolating the people? well, i think it's important to support and help people who are auto russia 1st thing. second, they need to sanction russian government sanctioning rational government means that

they should not buy russian oil and gas. this is the 1st thing i, i know that there is a huge problem with the whole infrastructure in europe and in germany mostly, which is based on, on russian energy sources. but still, there should be some solution found if we are facing the extra special threats, right? now the whole world is facing a s a special threat. let him know he's government. this step must be strong and the solution must be what it, what about what about the cultural and sporting bands on russians? are they wrong? yes. why think, there, i mean, what, what about western companies? what about western companies? are they wrong to leave russia? western companies or not, when they leave russia because they spend money and they pay taxes for the government, which actually is killing civilians in ukraine. right now. these are very different

things to say. i think that for example, the, the sugar position would be if right now in new york city or in gerland or in paris, you could be a huge concert of big russian stars. for example, of classic music. if they said words about how wrong the war, if it was a support, said, if the western society supported the russian and poor on the right side of the history, you know, there are so many bright question, the representatives of russian culture. but the do when you tell it's difficult to do when you tell me the russians themselves are disengaged from politics and disengaged from what their own country is doing. and you crave right next door, destroying the country and murdering people left, right, and center. this is the main problem that this is the main issue. you should not

think that all russians are the same. you should not that there are so many people . i mean, i know russian dissidents, right to our, to journalists who are now, why can, to get bank accounts in european countries? i mean, this is not the right way to do things. this is not the right way to react. the right way is to is to fight. let him, i wouldn't, she, government, his army is forgive ukrainian weapon is to support ukraine and refugees from ukraine. but this is not, this is not the situation when you need to bend all russian. i mean, we are what, what is the russian brand that you want people to see and depreciate? what is it? so i say is, in russia is important, but russia was at the moment because it's a huge threat to the west. it's perceived as a huge threat that fits importance. it's hard to tell people that there's any other

importance at the moment. that's what's target people in the way concentrating on them. tell me, am i responsible for one with with crimes? tell me. is, is right, is the right. who right now, for example, is suffering, trying to find a way to, to get a ticket. the berlin, if he responsible, are, are the journalists and politicians, and activists and human rights activists. then composers and diverse, are they responsible if there were always, again, glen, up with him, but now they are just russian. this is not something that you repeat in european way of life should bring to the world. i think that we, we used to fight and we will fight for europe in values. i really believe in democracy values and western european values. and this values do not do

not you know, build the picture when every, every russian is the same, but never what i said you would, except that it's a very mixed picture. and i'll give you an example. we're getting reports about the way in forming on your friends or your colleagues is coming back into fashion. in russia, the return of so called political commissars, in factories and offices checking on people's opinions. are you surprised how quickly that kind of thing has come back into russia and how quickly it's being taken up with seeing people reporting on their teachers, the teachers being sacked and find by the authorities for things they might have said to their students in class? there's a long history of that in russia. isn't that how depressing find it that has come back? it's this is of course depressing. this is something that makes me unhappy. softly saying this is terrible. and i know that this is coming back and this is,

this is something from, you know, k g be past of russia. this is something in jeans, of some people in russia said ration. i would not argue with that. of course, there are, there are a lot of a lot of very bad people in russia and people who support, actively, aggressively vladimir wouldn't policy and actually aggressively support sliding wouldn't war in ukraine. but still, there are so many teachers. for example, you have just mentioned who are trying to tell children in the classroom that this is wrong, that they need to be good people that there are so many. i don't know professors and so many activists who are still trying to explain to, to others around them that there are, there are people dad killed in ukraine by, by russian soldiers, company in the, in the, in the short time that,

that we have left. do you think ukraine code or ever should forgive russia for what it's done? maybe in a lot of a lot of years after, i don't know a century after 60 years, up to 70 years, maybe they will find they will find power. they will find something that will help them to forgive, but, but after everything that they have faced in ukraine, after everything good, russian forces russian president and he's in a circle and his propaganda faces have done. it's not going to be easy and i really feel terrible about what's going on. this is something that changed a little life of ukrainians. this is something that changed the life of my family and my friends. and this is something that took away my country and my, my home from you. do you want to go back to a country like that?

do you see yourself going back to a country like them? as soon as like out as soon as there is a chance of new life, you think there's anything better to follow him? there can be something better. yes. and i hope for it, and i'm going to be, i'm going to buy the ticket for the 1st plane. briefly, can you ever look at russia with the same eyes as you did before the war? now it's going to be a different country, but i still love it. and i still, i still hope for, for the best for it. and i still think that we have a mission, like journalists, mission to be built in better. all right, we have to leave it there. you're cutting aquatic as a thanks very much for being on conflict. so thank you for the invitation. thank you. ah

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ah ah, this is d w. news life from berlin and nato's expansion plans in jeopardy as turkey blocks talks on friend and sweet and joining the western military alliance, and nato ambassadors failed to reach agreement. also on the program, bhaskar says maybe a 1000 ukrainian scientists have surrendered to russian forces in mateo, paul and their fate is now unclear. united nations issues its latest stock and warning about climate change. as scientists say, key indicators of global warming have hit new records.